Military Law

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Voyager
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Voyager » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:24 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Voyager wrote:
JSASS wrote:
conch republic wrote:Thanks for all the info, Patrick.

What's the typical age of people doing JAG? Are they typically 25 year olds that didn't take off between UG & LS, or are there some "non-traditional" grads in there as well?


I can tell you the age cut-off for AF is 35 (unless you are prior officer) which particularly sucks for me, because I'm a 4 year tour prior-enlisted Active AF and I still can't get a waiver. I'll be 38 when I graduate Law School.

Moreover, I started this thread, and moments later I talked with an AF JAG recruiter and he broke the bad news to me.

The age restriction is 42 for Army/Nave Jag, so I'll explore that, but having spent time in the AF, I'd rather do that



42??? Wow.

Marines cut off is 28.


The Marine Corps is different in a number of different ways from the other services, the least of which being age to commission. So what?

hey, relax. no one was attacking you or the air force. I am well aware how different the Marines are than the other services. The lower age requirement is due to the rigors of Marines OCS. I was just surpised that the age disparity was so great.... and how similar air force uniforms are to Grey Hound bus driver uniforms.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:40 pm

Voyager wrote: hey, relax. no one was attacking you or the air force. I am well aware how different the Marines are than the other services. The lower age requirement is due to the rigors of Marines OCS. I was just surpised that the age disparity was so great.... and how similar air force uniforms are to Grey Hound bus driver uniforms.


I was not taking it as a slight on the AF or Patrick Bateman.

And there is no one that hates our service dress more than myself. I dream of a world where I can hang my blues and ABUs up and let them collect dust in favor of the MultiCam and something that does not look like the suit an extra would wear on Mad Men, just with more shit pinned on.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby SemperLegal » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:36 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:I was not taking it as a slight on the AF or Patrick Bateman.

And there is no one that hates our service dress more than myself. I dream of a world where I can hang my blues and ABUs up and let them collect dust in favor of the MultiCam and something that does not look like the suit an extra would wear on Mad Men, just with more shit pinned on.


I, for one, used to get very jealous of the AF during Ball Season. You all looked very comfortable and were able to eat and breath at the same time without cutting of circulation to your extremities.

However, service charlies, followed closely by sleeves-down digicams, is clearly where its at.

EDIT: Civvies is actually the best uniform of all.

Melkaba
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:31 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Melkaba » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:26 am

I've been fumbling around with the idea of joining the military for years (out of high school, I wanted to join the Air Force, but I was stopped short by a combination of an asthma diagnosis when I was like 7 despite never having an asthma attack, meeting more or less the PT requirements, and eye-sight problems and I didn't have the case for lasik; out of college, I was really looking into a Navy/Clinical Psychology PhD program as a back-up option, but I ended up getting accepted to a T20 school (WUSTL)) and I've been looking around the Navy and Air Force branches about JAG. The idea has me so interested that I think I may be serious in doing it. But I have a few questions that definitely might have been answered in this topic somewhere already, but I really just want to try getting my questions on paper so to speak.

So say I'm in a T20 already as a 1L and say that I really do not care in the slightest on whether or not I'm deployed. With first semester grades, I'll probably land somewhere above median but not extremely high up there. First, how would I go about trying to get some entry into the JAG program and second, are my chances pretty much zilch because I'm not in the upper 3rd of my class? (and also provided that I land in the same area or slightly higher (hopefully) in second semester). Any help would be appreciated.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:25 am

Melkaba wrote:I've been fumbling around with the idea of joining the military for years (out of high school, I wanted to join the Air Force, but I was stopped short by a combination of an asthma diagnosis when I was like 7 despite never having an asthma attack, meeting more or less the PT requirements, and eye-sight problems and I didn't have the case for lasik; out of college, I was really looking into a Navy/Clinical Psychology PhD program as a back-up option, but I ended up getting accepted to a T20 school (WUSTL)) and I've been looking around the Navy and Air Force branches about JAG. The idea has me so interested that I think I may be serious in doing it. But I have a few questions that definitely might have been answered in this topic somewhere already, but I really just want to try getting my questions on paper so to speak.

So say I'm in a T20 already as a 1L and say that I really do not care in the slightest on whether or not I'm deployed. With first semester grades, I'll probably land somewhere above median but not extremely high up there. First, how would I go about trying to get some entry into the JAG program and second, are my chances pretty much zilch because I'm not in the upper 3rd of my class? (and also provided that I land in the same area or slightly higher (hopefully) in second semester). Any help would be appreciated.


While going through 71 pages of this thread can a bit daunting, you will be well served to read through everything. You will learn quite a bit about the whole applications process, from selections rates to the type of people selected. Also, all the services maintain JAG recruiting websites – probably a good place to start before you hit a message board.

Short answers to your questions from the USAF JAG perspective:

1. There are two ROTC programs you can accomplish in law school that effectively guarantee you a commission and slot in the JAG Corps, Graduate Law Program and One Year College Program. There is also the civilian Summer Internship Program for your 2L summer which is the most effective way to bolster your application for direct appointment. All of these programs are laid out on the AF JAG website.

2. Good grades always help a JAG application but are not, in and of themselves, sufficient for JAG selection. Plenty of people with “meh” grades but w/ background or skills that make them stand out have been selected. USNWR rankings of your program will not have any real impact on selection changes.

Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:46 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Melkaba wrote:I've been fumbling around with the idea of joining the military for years (out of high school, I wanted to join the Air Force, but I was stopped short by a combination of an asthma diagnosis when I was like 7 despite never having an asthma attack, meeting more or less the PT requirements, and eye-sight problems and I didn't have the case for lasik; out of college, I was really looking into a Navy/Clinical Psychology PhD program as a back-up option, but I ended up getting accepted to a T20 school (WUSTL)) and I've been looking around the Navy and Air Force branches about JAG. The idea has me so interested that I think I may be serious in doing it. But I have a few questions that definitely might have been answered in this topic somewhere already, but I really just want to try getting my questions on paper so to speak.

So say I'm in a T20 already as a 1L and say that I really do not care in the slightest on whether or not I'm deployed. With first semester grades, I'll probably land somewhere above median but not extremely high up there. First, how would I go about trying to get some entry into the JAG program and second, are my chances pretty much zilch because I'm not in the upper 3rd of my class? (and also provided that I land in the same area or slightly higher (hopefully) in second semester). Any help would be appreciated.


While going through 71 pages of this thread can a bit daunting, you will be well served to read through everything. You will learn quite a bit about the whole applications process, from selections rates to the type of people selected. Also, all the services maintain JAG recruiting websites – probably a good place to start before you hit a message board.

Short answers to your questions from the USAF JAG perspective:

1. There are two ROTC programs you can accomplish in law school that effectively guarantee you a commission and slot in the JAG Corps, Graduate Law Program and One Year College Program. There is also the civilian Summer Internship Program for your 2L summer which is the most effective way to bolster your application for direct appointment. All of these programs are laid out on the AF JAG website.

2. Good grades always help a JAG application but are not, in and of themselves, sufficient for JAG selection. Plenty of people with “meh” grades but w/ background or skills that make them stand out have been selected. USNWR rankings of your program will not have any real impact on selection changes.


One thing I will say is that as a civilian, finding the requisite (and updated) forms for the application has been a giant hassle. I'm still not 100% sure I've got everything squared away, and my GLP interview is tomorrow.

Form 1758 isn't anywhere anymore as far as I can tell, there are about 15 versions of form 2030 floating around, and I've found at least three versions of 1759 on the internet before finally finding the AF Form database the other day.

I've managed to get it all together, I think, but something that future applicants should keep in mind. I probably should've asked my SJA interviewer directly for the forms, but our communication between each other has been fairly peculiar.

sylvernight
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby sylvernight » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:21 pm

Baylan wrote:One thing I will say is that as a civilian, finding the requisite (and updated) forms for the application has been a giant hassle. I'm still not 100% sure I've got everything squared away, and my GLP interview is tomorrow.

Form 1758 isn't anywhere anymore as far as I can tell, there are about 15 versions of form 2030 floating around, and I've found at least three versions of 1759 on the internet before finally finding the AF Form database the other day.

I've managed to get it all together, I think, but something that future applicants should keep in mind. I probably should've asked my SJA interviewer directly for the forms, but our communication between each other has been fairly peculiar.


If it makes you feel any better, it's not much easier as a military member. We have a central place where all forms are supposed to be accessible, but I couldn't find the most updated versions there either, and the website seems to be a mess. The base legal office is a good resource however. I already have my package together, but when I called to make my appointment, the deputy SJA asked if I needed any help finding things. Maybe there is a secret JAG-only system somewhere?

Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:06 pm

sylvernight wrote:
Baylan wrote:One thing I will say is that as a civilian, finding the requisite (and updated) forms for the application has been a giant hassle. I'm still not 100% sure I've got everything squared away, and my GLP interview is tomorrow.

Form 1758 isn't anywhere anymore as far as I can tell, there are about 15 versions of form 2030 floating around, and I've found at least three versions of 1759 on the internet before finally finding the AF Form database the other day.

I've managed to get it all together, I think, but something that future applicants should keep in mind. I probably should've asked my SJA interviewer directly for the forms, but our communication between each other has been fairly peculiar.


If it makes you feel any better, it's not much easier as a military member. We have a central place where all forms are supposed to be accessible, but I couldn't find the most updated versions there either, and the website seems to be a mess. The base legal office is a good resource however. I already have my package together, but when I called to make my appointment, the deputy SJA asked if I needed any help finding things. Maybe there is a secret JAG-only system somewhere?


It'd be a lot easier if they just directly linked to the forms from the JAG Recruiting website... Which is where I got many of the forms, on the old website, they were directly available.

sylvernight
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby sylvernight » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:34 pm

Baylan wrote:It'd be a lot easier if they just directly linked to the forms from the JAG Recruiting website... Which is where I got many of the forms, on the old website, they were directly available.


Completely agreed. I wish they would go back to the old format too; that intro drives me nuts.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:53 pm

sylvernight wrote:
Baylan wrote:It'd be a lot easier if they just directly linked to the forms from the JAG Recruiting website... Which is where I got many of the forms, on the old website, they were directly available.


Completely agreed. I wish they would go back to the old format too; that intro drives me nuts.


That is the sort of feedback that would be very valuable to pass on to your SJA or to JAX. You obviously will want to be diplomatic about it but that is something that might not cross the minds of the senior JAGs that developed the page. With roughly 26 months in right now, I can tell you how quickly you brain pushes out all the little stressful things that are part of the accessions process. The small things that drive applicants nuts are quickly forgotten once you clear that stage. I've been through that site countless times and I never even noticed that the forms were not still there because, obviously, I have no use for them now.

User avatar
Esquire
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:45 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:59 pm

Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:02 pm

Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.


Congrats!!!

Did you just get the call?

User avatar
Esquire
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:45 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:06 pm

Recently, yes.

boston
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:19 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby boston » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:13 pm

Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.


Congrats man. Do you think they will be doing the same for the internship? Odds are stacked against me but I am still trying to grasp some glimmer of hope

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:13 pm

Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.



So all FSOs are calling? Or just if they feel like it?

*watches phone*

umassalpha
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:18 pm

Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.



Congrats!!!

I'm hoping for an alternate spot at this point haha

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:08 pm

umassalpha wrote:
Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.



Congrats!!!

I'm hoping for an alternate spot at this point haha


Yeah, me too. It's getting kind of late, isn't it? Already after 3 PM EST.

umassalpha
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:13 pm

jess8328 wrote:
umassalpha wrote:
Esquire wrote:Army Active Duty results are out tomorrow. FSOs calling today. I'm in :D :D :D

Best of luck to everyone else.



Congrats!!!

I'm hoping for an alternate spot at this point haha


Yeah, me too. It's getting kind of late, isn't it? Already after 3 PM EST.


ha that's what i'm thinkin. gathering up the March 1 stuff! Back to the tedious.

allAF
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:39 am

Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:46 pm

sylvernight wrote:
Baylan wrote:It'd be a lot easier if they just directly linked to the forms from the JAG Recruiting website... Which is where I got many of the forms, on the old website, they were directly available.


Completely agreed. I wish they would go back to the old format too; that intro drives me nuts.


These forms ARE directly available for OYCP and GLP applicants. They're just in a different place. I literally just did this to make sure it worked, and it's all directly available from the JAG recruiting site. Under Apply and Active Duty Programs, and OYCP (although same is true for GLP): hit the yellow "Apply" on the left. Your computer will automatically download a PDF file. I did that, and when I open that downloaded file, there's a separate frame/window/box thingy that shows up at the bottom of the PDF document that has ALL of the needed AF documents right there. Just click on them and they open right up. In other words, JAG was clever and made it so streamlined that it was right at your fingertips the whole time. (The exception is for prior military.)

I have a Mac, so maybe it doesn't work like this on PCs, but I doubt it. This is the government we're talking about here, and they don't speak Mac. I am absolutely not the most computer savvy person (see my early reference to "thingy"). Surely I'm not the only one who has figured this out. You shouldn't have to go hunting around the internet for forms. Situational awareness.

As a side comment, if you happen to hear from the detachment that you are applying to for one of these AF programs that they currently have a cadet who is going through it, and they give you that cadet's contact information, it's a REALLY good idea to contact them BEFORE you interview. Give yourself every leg up that you possibly can for these programs. Competition is fierce for the AF right now - just ask any ROTC sophomore who is competing for a field training slot and has a 45% chance of getting selected (compared to 75% or higher in the past). There's a lot that we know and can share with you that can help you make a good decision and make your life a lot easier if (when?) you get accepted. I am dumbfounded by how often young people make such poor use of potential mentors and guides; instead they insist on reinventing the wheel when they don't have to and would be better served building off of someone else's previous work.

Sorry if this post comes across as a rant, but I am frankly sometimes shocked by things that I see JAG applicants fail to do that seem so simple or intuitive. Maybe I'm just old. :) Either way, best of luck to all GLP and OYCP applicants!


EDIT: Regarding the documents attached to the PDF - my computer automatically displays them at the bottom of that window. But after I looked at it again, I thought of some problems some of you may have encountered. Maybe you don't use Adobe, or maybe your program isn't preset to display the attachments. Then I could see how you can easily miss it. There's a paperclip thing at the bottom of the recent version of Adobe Acrobat Reader, and if you hit that, the attachments will show up on the bottom.

Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:23 am

allAF wrote:
sylvernight wrote:
Baylan wrote:It'd be a lot easier if they just directly linked to the forms from the JAG Recruiting website... Which is where I got many of the forms, on the old website, they were directly available.


Completely agreed. I wish they would go back to the old format too; that intro drives me nuts.


These forms ARE directly available for OYCP and GLP applicants. They're just in a different place. I literally just did this to make sure it worked, and it's all directly available from the JAG recruiting site. Under Apply and Active Duty Programs, and OYCP (although same is true for GLP): hit the yellow "Apply" on the left. Your computer will automatically download a PDF file. I did that, and when I open that downloaded file, there's a separate frame/window/box thingy that shows up at the bottom of the PDF document that has ALL of the needed AF documents right there. Just click on them and they open right up. In other words, JAG was clever and made it so streamlined that it was right at your fingertips the whole time. (The exception is for prior military.)

I have a Mac, so maybe it doesn't work like this on PCs, but I doubt it. This is the government we're talking about here, and they don't speak Mac. I am absolutely not the most computer savvy person (see my early reference to "thingy"). Surely I'm not the only one who has figured this out. You shouldn't have to go hunting around the internet for forms. Situational awareness.

As a side comment, if you happen to hear from the detachment that you are applying to for one of these AF programs that they currently have a cadet who is going through it, and they give you that cadet's contact information, it's a REALLY good idea to contact them BEFORE you interview. Give yourself every leg up that you possibly can for these programs. Competition is fierce for the AF right now - just ask any ROTC sophomore who is competing for a field training slot and has a 45% chance of getting selected (compared to 75% or higher in the past). There's a lot that we know and can share with you that can help you make a good decision and make your life a lot easier if (when?) you get accepted. I am dumbfounded by how often young people make such poor use of potential mentors and guides; instead they insist on reinventing the wheel when they don't have to and would be better served building off of someone else's previous work.

Sorry if this post comes across as a rant, but I am frankly sometimes shocked by things that I see JAG applicants fail to do that seem so simple or intuitive. Maybe I'm just old. :) Either way, best of luck to all GLP and OYCP applicants!


EDIT: Regarding the documents attached to the PDF - my computer automatically displays them at the bottom of that window. But after I looked at it again, I thought of some problems some of you may have encountered. Maybe you don't use Adobe, or maybe your program isn't preset to display the attachments. Then I could see how you can easily miss it. There's a paperclip thing at the bottom of the recent version of Adobe Acrobat Reader, and if you hit that, the attachments will show up on the bottom.


Bingo to your edit. The only thing that shows up using my default web browser (Chrome, so its not exactly off the map, either) is the non-official checklist. Given that my GLP interview is in a little less than 10 hours... Little late to be helpful, unfortunately.

Either way, the old style was much more easily understood. Sometimes we over technology ourselves, seems like this may be the case.

babyt8_99
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:21 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby babyt8_99 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:47 am

I'm caving and joining the group anxiously awaiting the internship results. I really hope they don't push us off until Monday. Not sure my anxiety can handle it! :shock:

umassalpha
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:03 pm

Active Duty Army results are up

--LinkRemoved--

i'll be applying again!

umassalpha
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:05 pm

if my count is correct only 101 Primary Selects...I may be off by 1 or 2

Margs1213
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:31 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Margs1213 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:57 pm

I was picked as an alternate...does anyone know how they choose which alternates are selected first for open spots

TCM101
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby TCM101 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:22 pm

Have any of the JD's here not selected through JARO considered pursuing a commission in the regular army via OCS as a way to get a foot in the door? Would it be possible to transfer from the regular army to JAG at some point?




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.