Military Law

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Giddy-Up
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Re: Military Law

Postby Giddy-Up » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:13 pm

SocalPizza wrote:
Giddy-Up wrote:Anyone else get the e-mail asking them to participate in the Navy JAG survey?


Yep. And I called a couple buddies who also applied and they got it too. It doesn't appear to be a "you made it!" undercover survey.

EDIT: I had hoped.


Good to know.

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:30 pm

My only lingering question about the Navy JAG survey is whether or not this means they have made or are close to making decisions. Oct. 15 deadline, and I was told they'd decide within 4-6 weeks, then take 2 more weeks to announce... It's now been over 4 weeks.

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:51 pm

SocalPizza wrote:My only lingering question about the Navy JAG survey is whether or not this means they have made or are close to making decisions. Oct. 15 deadline, and I was told they'd decide within 4-6 weeks, then take 2 more weeks to announce... It's now been over 4 weeks.


We should hear sometime in December though, right? No chance of it stretching into January?

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:02 pm

Survey was long and sometimes redundant, but interesting nonetheless. I wonder why they are doing this—trying to quantify good JAG characteristics for future interviewer/ee guides, who knows.

I'd be surprised if it went past December, but not shocked.
Last edited by Groundie on Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:08 pm

jess8328 wrote:
SocalPizza wrote:My only lingering question about the Navy JAG survey is whether or not this means they have made or are close to making decisions. Oct. 15 deadline, and I was told they'd decide within 4-6 weeks, then take 2 more weeks to announce... It's now been over 4 weeks.


We should hear sometime in December though, right? No chance of it stretching into January?


It could easily stretch into January. But I would bet it doesn't. Anything's possible, especially with them getting unprecedent numbers of applicants.

Baylan
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Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:45 pm

I have an interview with an ROTC detachment commander this Monday for the AF GLP Program. Any suggestions from those who have served, particularly in the AF, or have interviewed worked through this before?

umassalpha
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Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:36 am

Army active duty app changed to "Pending Board Decision" still expecting a january posting though!

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:47 am

Baylan wrote:I have an interview with an ROTC detachment commander this Monday for the AF GLP Program. Any suggestions from those who have served, particularly in the AF, or have interviewed worked through this before?


I am currently in the AF OYCP program, so I went through something like this last year. Last year was different, however, in that the detachment was only required to submit a letter saying that they would take you on as a cadet if you were selected by AF JAG. This year, it seems like they also submit an evaluation of you in terms of appearance, demeanor and so forth. They must also rate you as Outstanding, Excellent, Satisfactory, Marginal, or Unsatisfactory.

Each commander is going to have a slightly different idea as to who might make an outstanding candidate, but maybe some generic advice will be helpful. Have all your ducks in a row - research AFROTC and JAG. Know what you're about to get into. Have a sense of what the ROTC requirements are and how that may cause some difficulties with your law program. (For example, know you have to attend field training in the summer, and that it may make getting a normal summer legal job a bit of a challenge. You will also have to take ROTC classes in both your 2L and 3L year. You also get to PT twice a week with the Cadet Wing.)

Above all else, be respectful. They won't expect you to know customs and courtesies or demonstrate military bearing, but they will be looking for someone who will be a good peer - be enthusiastic, energetic (or willing to become so), and someone the commander will want to spend the next two years working with. If you show that you are a focused and hard-working individual, pleasant to be around, and eager to work with them, that will go a long way.

Finally, don't look like a slob. Present yourself in a way that sends the message "I pay attention to details. I'm a clean, tidy, neat, and well-groomed person." That doesn't mean you must have a military haircut. It also doesn't mean that you have to be in the best physical shape of your life (yet). You don't need to wear a suit. But don't show up looking like you've lived on the street for a week.

Feel free to jump in if you have other/better advice! Also, feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions. Best of luck!

eodops
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Re: Military Law

Postby eodops » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:41 pm

Baylan-

I think allAF pretty much nailed it.

The only thing that I would add (and this applies to your JAG interview also) is that you not not interviewing for a job as a lawyer for the Air Force. You are interviewing to become an officer in the Air Force, who will then be practicing law. It is kind of a fine distinction, but it is important.

I am in my second year in the GLP program. It's a good deal, but it is also a lot of work. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Good luck!

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:50 pm

Great point eodops!

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:06 pm

umassalpha wrote:Army active duty app changed to "Pending Board Decision" still expecting a january posting though!

When did you submit? Mine is still under completeness review.

umassalpha
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Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:42 pm

Esquire wrote:
umassalpha wrote:Army active duty app changed to "Pending Board Decision" still expecting a january posting though!

When did you submit? Mine is still under completeness review.



I submitted mine about 2 weeks or so before the Nov 1 deadline, around Oct 19th I believe.

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:24 pm

umassalpha wrote:
Esquire wrote:
umassalpha wrote:Army active duty app changed to "Pending Board Decision" still expecting a january posting though!

When did you submit? Mine is still under completeness review.



I submitted mine about 2 weeks or so before the Nov 1 deadline, around Oct 19th I believe.


Same here.

cake
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Re: Military Law

Postby cake » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:13 pm

jess8328 wrote:
umassalpha wrote:
Esquire wrote:
umassalpha wrote:Army active duty app changed to "Pending Board Decision" still expecting a january posting though!

When did you submit? Mine is still under completeness review.



I submitted mine about 2 weeks or so before the Nov 1 deadline, around Oct 19th I believe.


Same here.

I submitted near the deadline and I am also Pending Board Decision. Good luck, everyone!

Esquire, you may want to check your spam folder. My resume didn't upload properly, so I had to email another copy in. That might be the reason why you're still in completeness review.

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:17 pm

I submitted near the deadline and am still at under completeness review. I don't see anything in my spam, so at least you're not alone.

Minnesota3L
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Re: Military Law

Postby Minnesota3L » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:40 am

I submitted a couple weeks before the deadline and mine just turned to "pending board decision" a few days ago.

Word is that AF October results are out and calls went out...haven't heard anything so I'm assuming I didn't get selected. Waiting on a letter.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:31 am

Groundie wrote:I submitted near the deadline and am still at under completeness review. I don't see anything in my spam, so at least you're not alone.

Okay, thank goodness. I submitted mine a day or two before the deadline. I checked my spam folder and saw nothing. I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:03 am

Minnesota3L wrote:I submitted a couple weeks before the deadline and mine just turned to "pending board decision" a few days ago.

Word is that AF October results are out and calls went out...haven't heard anything so I'm assuming I didn't get selected. Waiting on a letter.


I didn't apply to AF, so I have no idea about the time line, but that sounds really quick! If only Army and Navy could have a turn around like that...

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:09 pm

For the AF, the October board usually requires you be complete about a month beforehand, so September—>November is about 2 1/2 months. I heard this one was actually a bit slower than usual.

TigerOne
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Re: Military Law

Postby TigerOne » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:41 pm

Question about AF JAG selection results: are you typically contacted by phone if you made it and letter if you did not, or do they contact everyone equally by mail? Also, does a thin letter always mean "thanks but no thanks?"

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:42 am

TigerOne wrote:Question about AF JAG selection results: are you typically contacted by phone if you made it and letter if you did not, or do they contact everyone equally by mail? Also, does a thin letter always mean "thanks but no thanks?"


I recommend going here for AF JAG specific threads: http://www.airforceots.com/

Answers to your questions:
Notification method depends on your SJA. Almost all of them will call you the day results are posted on FLITE if you're in. However, there are a handful that will let you find out in the mail.

If you are not selected, you will get a letter within a week of results being posted telling you so.

If results have been posted and you can't wait, you can call the USAF JAG hotline and they will let you down gently. Although I think with unprecedented numbers of applicants, they may not appreciate everyone that didn't get an SJA phone call to call in and ask. But that's purely conjecture.

Good luck!

pellaro22
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Re: Military Law

Postby pellaro22 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:26 pm

Got the reject letter from AF today. Not surprised at all, especially given the importance of the interview portion. I'm not sure if I should ask to be considered for the next board because I had possibly the worst interview in the history of the AF JAG program. I interviewed in August, but I wrote down what happened the next day so that I would not forget this historic occasion.

Details:

-kept me waiting for 20 minutes outside the office while the SJA talked to his buddy on the phone about working out

-immediately told me upon walking in the room that I was probably going to be rejected (before reviewing any of my application)

-SJA said that the way he did things was that he would ask questions from a canned interview prompt, and I would answer...1 sentence maximum. Talk about really being able to sell yourself!

-was admonished for my lack of trial experience (aside from the fact that I AM A 3L AND CANNOT PRACTICE LAW...) even though I have significant experience prepping litigators, moot court, and clinical experience. This didn't really matter though (my explanation was longer than one sentence).

-Was told that the number of times I smoked pot probably wasn't accurate and consistently pressed to give a higher number. I think we finally settled on 50. After discussing with my friends, they agreed that he had me in a trance-like state because that number just isn't possible.

-Buddy of SJA (presumably from pre-interview workout strategy session) called again during the interview...they had to talk lifting strategy again for 15-20 minutes....sat there...waited...thought, "Are they testing me?"...waited some more.

-After about 2 hours, it was FINALLY my turn to ask questions. Obviously, I planned to use this time to ask a general question about experience/reason for going into the Air Force/areas of law, etc. so that I could immediately relate these to my own experiences. After he had already entered in my information into the canned brief, I doubt any of it mattered. SJA was not interested at all in the one year internship I did for the Governor...the 3 years I spent working for the State DOT on construction management, dispute resolution and contract administration. Said that non-legal experience didn't matter. At all.

-After asking how he likes the AF JAG (he hates it..."I can't believe they put me on this base"), I inquire into the possibility of specialization. Not possible, says SJA. "Well sir," I say, "I saw it on AF JAG website so I thought I would inquire." "Not possible...it's just a recruiting website. Half the time you won't even be doing legal work." OH NOW IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE WHY MY NON-LEGAL EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MATTER.

-Was told that "this is your time to ask me anything you want...you have as much time as you need." Excited, I began...again. But OH WAIT--There is a knock at the door!! Who is it?? Oh OF COURSE...it's his four year old daughter and his wife...and his mother-in-law. Completely appropriate. Apparently, SJA was jerking me around because he had scheduled a lunch date with his family and my time was up. What a jokester!

-After getting up to leave, I'm told to stick around for a little. SJA closes the door and brings his four-year-old in the room and starts bouncing her on his knee, talking to me about the importance of family, etc. Then, she craps her pants. Awesome. Immediately realizing that the smell is very real and this insane debacle is in no way some sort of test, I look for the way out. Door shut. Leg immovable. Looking down, I see SJA Daughter with some sort of vice grip on my leg, then tugging on my pants, then pulling on my tie...and very smelly. I think that there is no way this can get worse.

-I was wrong. By trying to graciously-and playfully (no need for crying babies) remove SJA Daughter from my leg, I accidentally waft the smell towards my nostrils. It's bad. Very bad. SJA sees my face and instead of doing something reasonable like apologizing, giving SJA Daughter to his wife, mother-in-law, secretary, haz-mat team, etc...he takes his own reasonable steps. It appears that a test is in store for me today. The test is named: Guess What SJA Daughter's Feces Smells Like. After insisting, repeatedly, that "No sir, it was definitely not me that crapped my pants..." SJA says "Well, let's guess what hers smells like. What do you think she had for breakfast?" I think he is joking. He is not. He is SO not joking that he picks her up, carries her over by me and begins waving her around to spread the smell so I have "an easier time figuring it out." I stammer and cannot think of what the heck to say because at this point I think that I'm on Candid Camera and my family is hiding behind a fake wall.

-Thankfully, SJA Wife walks in the room and everyone is so happy that SJA Daughter pooped her pants and that the interview is over and they can finally go to lunch as one big, happy family. I try to bolt for the door after a queasy handshake obligatory Thank You. SJA wants me to walk out with his family. Apparently, this is bonding. I figure this is my LAST chance to make any sort of impression on this guy. I said in my interview that I speak Italian fluently (because I am), and there are lots of Italian restaurants in the area (which I am familiar with) and try to tell him some of the good places to eat. He stops, looks me directly in the eye, and says "There is no other food I hate more than Italian."

-Went home, slept for 5 hours. Woke up, realized it wasn't a dream. Talked to my career services office, my parents, my boss, my co-workers and fellow students. All of them reiterated that this was not my doing, so I felt a little better. BUT COME ON, REALLY AIR FORCE??!?!

That is all. Thank you, AF JAG, for rejecting me. I am definitely NOT qualified with my moot court, clinic, trial advocacy and pro bono experience. I am definitely NOT qualified with my grades, fitness (crossfit everyday for the past 2 years), one-year paid clerkship for the Attorney General, language fluency, background in international relations and diplomacy, 5 year work history for state government and intention on putting in a solid 20 years. Lastly, I am definitely NOT qualified because if you guys hired this dude...then this is something I do not want to be a part of.

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:39 pm

Pellaro, when I first started reading your post, I was going to say that I had heard vaguely similar things from someone I know who applied a couple years ago (playing down AF JAG as something no one should want to do) and I thought maybe it was just a weird interview tactic the AF used to weed out people weren't serious about AF JAG. But your experience was just unreal. I don't know what to say.

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:13 pm

pellaro22 wrote:Got the reject letter from AF today. Not surprised at all... Thank you, AF JAG, for rejecting me. I am definitely NOT qualified with my moot court, clinic, trial advocacy and pro bono experience. I am definitely NOT qualified with my grades, fitness (crossfit everyday for the past 2 years), one-year paid clerkship for the Attorney General, language fluency, background in international relations and diplomacy, 5 year work history for state government and intention on putting in a solid 20 years. Lastly, I am definitely NOT qualified because if you guys hired this dude...then this is something I do not want to be a part of.



Pellaro, it sounds like you had a fairly awful interview. It also sounds like you gave up on becoming an Air Force JAG and became extremely bitter because of one fairly awful interview.

If you don't want it that bad, then I'm sure all the other applicants here (many of whom have interviewed multiple times with multiple SJA's for multiple boards) will be happy to see your application omitted from the hundreds competing for a handful of positions (15 for the October board).

The tone of your post leads me to believe you think you are entitled to a position as an Air Force JAG officer. As if you're the only person with good grades, moot court, trial ad, pro bono work, a foreign language, and solid credentials who's also physically fit.

Please.

pellaro22
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby pellaro22 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:21 pm

SocalPizza wrote:
pellaro22 wrote:Got the reject letter from AF today. Not surprised at all... Thank you, AF JAG, for rejecting me. I am definitely NOT qualified with my moot court, clinic, trial advocacy and pro bono experience. I am definitely NOT qualified with my grades, fitness (crossfit everyday for the past 2 years), one-year paid clerkship for the Attorney General, language fluency, background in international relations and diplomacy, 5 year work history for state government and intention on putting in a solid 20 years. Lastly, I am definitely NOT qualified because if you guys hired this dude...then this is something I do not want to be a part of.



Pellaro, it sounds like you had a fairly awful interview. It also sounds like you gave up on becoming an Air Force JAG and became extremely bitter because of one fairly awful interview.

If you don't want it that bad, then I'm sure all the other applicants here (many of whom have interviewed multiple times with multiple SJA's for multiple boards) will be happy to see your application omitted from the hundreds competing for a handful of positions (15 for the October board).

The tone of your post leads me to believe you think you are entitled to a position as an Air Force JAG officer. As if you're the only person with good grades, moot court, trial ad, pro bono work, a foreign language, and solid credentials who's also physically fit.

Please.



Awful? Yeah. Gave up? Maybe. Bitter? Sure. Entitled? Hardly.

I realize that the process is extremely competitive, even without the terrible job market. To be clear, I have never felt entitled to anything. I'm more bitter about the process than the rejection, to be honest. I know that any applicant--regardless of grades, experience, etc.--has a very slim chance of being selected. Had I been rejected after a semi-decent interview and a fair shake, I would probably be less of a whiner. It was a rant on my part, and if you didn't feel informed at all by what I said, I really don't care. It just felt good to get it out in the open.




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