Military Law

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:21 pm

Noval wrote:
theskippa10 wrote:You need to be a citizen to become an officer in the US military as far as i know


Yeah i have a double-citizenship and License to practice in NY and MA.

I'm just waiting for my partnership track to end, if i make partner, good, if not, i'll screw it and i'll go either in-house or JAG.
I'm pretty sure you can't be a dual citizen. You'd have to renounce your Canadian citizenship.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:39 pm

Rocky Estoppel wrote:
Noval wrote:
theskippa10 wrote:You need to be a citizen to become an officer in the US military as far as i know


Yeah i have a double-citizenship and License to practice in NY and MA.

I'm just waiting for my partnership track to end, if i make partner, good, if not, i'll screw it and i'll go either in-house or JAG.
I'm pretty sure you can't be a dual citizen. You'd have to renounce your Canadian citizenship.


You will not qualify for a security clearance holding dual citizenship. JAGs have to be able to attain a Secret. Rocky is correct; you would have to renounce your allegiance to the Queen.

And for all the services, JAG is not just something you can just fall into ass backwards after saying "screw it" to your previous job. I personally know a number of highly qualified AF JAG applicants going on their 4th or 5th accessions board. 5% selection rates are no joke.

MarMal
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarMal » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:06 pm

Hello

Due to circumstances seriously beyond my control, I missed the FSO for Army JAG when he was at my school. I finally have a Field Screening interview tomorrow. I'm almost certain that I know what I want to say, but I would appreciate any input or suggestions.

The rest of my application is done except that I'm waiting on one more LOR, so I'm not just starting the process now.

Thanks, and good luck to all of you.

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Noval
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Re: Military Law

Postby Noval » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:02 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Rocky Estoppel wrote:
Noval wrote:
theskippa10 wrote:You need to be a citizen to become an officer in the US military as far as i know


Yeah i have a double-citizenship and License to practice in NY and MA.

I'm just waiting for my partnership track to end, if i make partner, good, if not, i'll screw it and i'll go either in-house or JAG.
I'm pretty sure you can't be a dual citizen. You'd have to renounce your Canadian citizenship.


You will not qualify for a security clearance holding dual citizenship. JAGs have to be able to attain a Secret. Rocky is correct; you would have to renounce your allegiance to the Queen.

And for all the services, JAG is not just something you can just fall into ass backwards after saying "screw it" to your previous job. I personally know a number of highly qualified AF JAG applicants going on their 4th or 5th accessions board. 5% selection rates are no joke.



Thanks for the tip, still, 5% selection isn't that bad for me, Canadian JAG recruits once in every 3-4 years or so...
+If i got a great gpa from Undergrad and an even better performance in Law School + BigLaw experience and recommendations, i'm sure i'll be competitive for selection, not putting my hopes too high though...


For the citizenship, i don't mind renouncing my Canadian citizenship, i already hate it here, there's nothing good in canada beside better employment prospects and better economy...

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:06 pm

While I am sure that many employers value biglaw experience, that hasn't been my impression of what the boards and interviewers are looking for. Rather, based on my admittedly two failed applications to the Navy and AF and the comments of active duty JAs, I believe experience in public interest and trial advocacy are important.

It is my understanding that it is extremely difficult to be selected as a practicing attorney, at least for the Navy. The Air Foce and Army get most of their people through direct accession, so that is more likely.

I guess the question I and others are curious about is: if you're so interested in biglaw enough to make a go at partner, why JAG? you should be prepared to answer that question. Also, no offense intended, but I think that many of us who have been trying to do this for years are mildly annoyed at your attitude. I could be way off-base here but JAG isn't something you just decide to do as a "backup".

Ambesa87
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Re: Military Law

Postby Ambesa87 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:38 am

Very good thread. Thanks for all the information and lets keep it going guys.

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theskippa10
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Re: Military Law

Postby theskippa10 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:50 am

A friend of mine spoke to a Navy Captain who used to be on the selection board, and said that grades/LR/journal that type of jazz doesn't matter nearly as much as being a "fit" for the branch. He claimed they took a guy who had a 3.3ish at a barely accredited school over a LR from harvard based on fit.

So I guess his point was, you may have all these fancy qualifications, but if they don't think you are a fit for the branch you're SOL, which leads me to believe that the interview may be the most important part of the process.

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TheLegalBeagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheLegalBeagle » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:25 pm

Is the selection rate for JAG low (specifically Navy and AF)? Also, which JAG is the best overall (quality of life, prestige, work, etc.)?

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:02 pm

TheLegalBeagle wrote:Is the selection rate for JAG low (specifically Navy and AF)? Also, which JAG is the best overall (quality of life, prestige, work, etc.)?


1) Around 5-10%

2) This is subjective and depends on what you're looking for; No one is considered "the best," they all are good for different reasons. Read through this thread because there is plenty of info detailing the differences.

umassalpha
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Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:50 pm

Submitted my Army App last week, still "under completeness review" FSO said she'd be calling in January if accepted. Man the wait is killerrrr

Anyone applying for USMC JAG?

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:46 pm

umassalpha wrote:Submitted my Army App last week, still "under completeness review" FSO said she'd be calling in January if accepted. Man the wait is killerrrr

Anyone applying for USMC JAG?



My FSO also said something about calling. I had always thought the list was just posted on the JARO site and that was that. Do you guys know which one would come first? Call or list posted on JARO?

And yeah, the wait is so long :(

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:28 pm

jess8328 wrote:My FSO also said something about calling. I had always thought the list was just posted on the JARO site and that was that. Do you guys know which one would come first? Call or list posted on JARO? And yeah, the wait is so long :(


For whatever it's worth, I found out from the JARO site first. A couple of hours later, I received a call from my FSO. Good luck!

JOThompson
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Re: Military Law

Postby JOThompson » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:37 pm

Rocky Estoppel wrote:
TheLegalBeagle wrote:Is the selection rate for JAG low (specifically Navy and AF)? Also, which JAG is the best overall (quality of life, prestige, work, etc.)?


1) Around 5-10%

2) This is subjective and depends on what you're looking for; No one is considered "the best," they all are good for different reasons. Read through this thread because there is plenty of info detailing the differences.

I don't have figures for Air Force JAG, but the Navy site claims that selection is around 20%. I've heard from friends that the rate is more like 8% this year.--LinkRemoved--

If a person really wants JAG and is indifferent about the uniform they're wearing, I'd recommend the Army. There was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse, i.e. Cooley grads at median. While it's undoubtedly more selective ITE, the Army still has the largest JAG corps and chances are better there.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:01 pm

JOThompson wrote:If a person really wants JAG and is indifferent about the uniform they're wearing, I'd recommend the Army. There was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse, i.e. Cooley grads at median. While it's undoubtedly more selective ITE, the Army still has the largest JAG corps and chances are better there.


Who are your sources for your statement that "[t]here was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse..."? By saying that the Army used to take Cooley grads at median, you are missing the point that the Army conducts a full-person review in making its admissions decisions. For example, the Army may admit an applicant who was the high school student body president, played a varsity sport in college, yet received mediocre grades from a third tier law school. They may also deny a Harvard grad who was on law review, but had no personality.

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:19 pm

Eagle wrote:
JOThompson wrote:If a person really wants JAG and is indifferent about the uniform they're wearing, I'd recommend the Army. There was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse, i.e. Cooley grads at median. While it's undoubtedly more selective ITE, the Army still has the largest JAG corps and chances are better there.


Who are your sources for your statement that "[t]here was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse..."? By saying that the Army used to take Cooley grads at median, you are missing the point that the Army conducts a full-person review in making its admissions decisions. For example, the Army may admit an applicant who was the high school student body president, played a varsity sport in college, yet received mediocre grades from a third tier law school. They may also deny a Harvard grad who was on law review, but had no personality.


TITCR.

You see this during the FLEP process, too. The 25 accepted candidates my year ran the gamut from the high 170s and a 3.8 or 3.9 GPA (she ended up at Stanford), to a 3.2 and a 156 or 158 (can't remember exactly -- don't remember where he ended up). Numbers aren't the be all end all for selection, and neither is the school you went to. The Army is far more interested in the "total person" concept. My SJA over the summer was a third-tier grad, but is obviously wildly successful because he's an SJA and is on track to make full bird. A professor at my school went to a no-name private school for undergrad, Notre Dame for law school (as a FLEP), and ended up getting her SJD from Yale. Schools and numbers tend to be all over the place. The Army cares MUCH more about how you are going to fit into the service than the numbers you put up (though solid numbers along with great interpersonal skills and physical fitness make you almost a lock for getting picked up).

Yeah, we have Cooley grads in the Corps, but I'd highly advise checking any attitude before interviewing with your FSO. He or she might have GONE to Cooley. :)

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theskippa10
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Re: Military Law

Postby theskippa10 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:49 pm

Submitted Army application today. Feel like I nailed that interview, so hopefully it will mitigate my meh creditentials for the internship but im not holding my breath

JOThompson
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Re: Military Law

Postby JOThompson » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:14 pm

Eagle wrote:
JOThompson wrote:If a person really wants JAG and is indifferent about the uniform they're wearing, I'd recommend the Army. There was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse, i.e. Cooley grads at median. While it's undoubtedly more selective ITE, the Army still has the largest JAG corps and chances are better there.


Who are your sources for your statement that "[t]here was a time where they were taking anyone with a pulse..."? By saying that the Army used to take Cooley grads at median, you are missing the point that the Army conducts a full-person review in making its admissions decisions. For example, the Army may admit an applicant who was the high school student body president, played a varsity sport in college, yet received mediocre grades from a third tier law school. They may also deny a Harvard grad who was on law review, but had no personality.

My statement should've been more specific. I was referring to educational pedigree. I'm happy to acknowledge that the Army takes a wholistic approach when selecting candidates and I've stated that several times earlier in this thread. My "anyone with a pulse" statement is another, perhaps exaggerated way of saying that T3 graduates are more common than expected in Army JAG. Anecdotal, but I know a bottom 25% from Thomas Jefferson who made it in, despite dropping out of ROTC in undergrad. My officer friends know of several JAGs from T3s and one from the T14. Anecdotal, sure. It's undeniable that the Army draws its attorneys from a wide range of schools, from the ultra elite institutions down to third tiers. ArmyOCS.com is a better source of information about JAG than TLS IMO, and if you linger very long there, you'll see that I'm in no way inventing this perception about Cooley and T3 grads being highly represented in Army JAG.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:00 pm

JOThompson wrote: My statement should've been more specific. I was referring to educational pedigree. I'm happy to acknowledge that the Army takes a wholistic approach when selecting candidates and I've stated that several times earlier in this thread. My "anyone with a pulse" statement is another, perhaps exaggerated way of saying that T3 graduates are more common than expected in Army JAG. Anecdotal, but I know a bottom 25% from Thomas Jefferson who made it in, despite dropping out of ROTC in undergrad. My officer friends know of several JAGs from T3s and one from the T14. Anecdotal, sure. It's undeniable that the Army draws its attorneys from a wide range of schools, from the ultra elite institutions down to third tiers. ArmyOCS.com is a better source of information about JAG than TLS IMO, and if you linger very long there, you'll see that I'm in no way inventing this perception about Cooley and T3 grads being highly represented in Army JAG.


To set the record straight, I took the liberty of compiling statistics on the most recent Active Duty Army JAG Selection Board from Spring FY 2010. There were a total of 119 individuals who were offered commissions. Of these, 37.0% (or 44) came from T1 law schools; 29.4% (or 35) came from T2 law schools; 21.8% (or 26) came from T3 law schools; 10.1% (or 12) came from T4 law schools; and two came from an unranked law school (Charlotte School of Law). There were no Cooley grads in this cycle.

The Accessions Board Select list is available here: --LinkRemoved--

Maybe things used to be different in the past, but I think these stats. pretty much speak for themselves...

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:48 pm

Eagle wrote:
JOThompson wrote: My statement should've been more specific. I was referring to educational pedigree. I'm happy to acknowledge that the Army takes a wholistic approach when selecting candidates and I've stated that several times earlier in this thread. My "anyone with a pulse" statement is another, perhaps exaggerated way of saying that T3 graduates are more common than expected in Army JAG. Anecdotal, but I know a bottom 25% from Thomas Jefferson who made it in, despite dropping out of ROTC in undergrad. My officer friends know of several JAGs from T3s and one from the T14. Anecdotal, sure. It's undeniable that the Army draws its attorneys from a wide range of schools, from the ultra elite institutions down to third tiers. ArmyOCS.com is a better source of information about JAG than TLS IMO, and if you linger very long there, you'll see that I'm in no way inventing this perception about Cooley and T3 grads being highly represented in Army JAG.


To set the record straight, I took the liberty of compiling statistics on the most recent Active Duty Army JAG Selection Board from Spring FY 2010. There were a total of 119 individuals who were offered commissions. Of these, 37.0% (or 44) came from T1 law schools; 29.4% (or 35) came from T2 law schools; 21.8% (or 26) came from T3 law schools; 10.1% (or 12) came from T4 law schools; and two came from an unranked law school (Charlotte School of Law). There were no Cooley grads in this cycle.

The Accessions Board Select list is available here: --LinkRemoved--

Maybe things used to be different in the past, but I think these stats. pretty much speak for themselves...



Slightly related question: Do you think that they limit the number of people selected from each school? For example, placing a cap of 2 people selected from a school per board.

thebiggdawg55
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Re: Military Law

Postby thebiggdawg55 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:53 pm

Does anyone know if any of the branches offer signing bonuses for new recruits?

helfer snooterbagon
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Re: Military Law

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:01 am

thebiggdawg55 wrote:Does anyone know if any of the branches offer signing bonuses for new recruits?


No signing bonuses for JAG.

umassalpha
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Re: Military Law

Postby umassalpha » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:21 pm

Do I have any shot at an active duty spot with a GPA just below 3.0...?

helfer snooterbagon
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Re: Military Law

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:08 am

umassalpha wrote:Do I have any shot at an active duty spot with a GPA just below 3.0...?


Yes.

w105wrs
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Re: Military Law

Postby w105wrs » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:19 pm

I am an active duty infantry officer currently applying for Army FLEP.

My numbers are 3.25/154

Hopefully Ranger tab, CIB, and shiny things get me a good consideration.

My question is any schools recommended in the Ohio/midwest area?

If accepted in FLEP would it be better to attend a 4th Tier school closer to home (Ohio) or try and get into somewhere better ranked farther away? Does this kind of consideration matter in the JAG?

JOThompson
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Re: Military Law

Postby JOThompson » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:27 pm

umassalpha wrote:Do I have any shot at an active duty spot with a GPA just below 3.0...?

Which branch? Army and Marine JAG slots are easier to come by. I'd put your chances are relatively low for Navy and Air Force JAG, which have selection rates in the single digits lately.




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