Military Law

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toppercentile
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:36 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby toppercentile » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:30 pm

Patrick - Thanks for taking time to answer so many questions. I have read many of your answers and I have done as much research as possible. The AF JAG website isn't that helpful, actually.

I will be starting law school this fall and I would like to know who I should contact and when about applying. I know that I cannot apply until after my first year of school, but should I go ahead and establish contacts?

Also, over the past few months I have been trying to get in shape. How important is this in the application/evaluation? If I don't meet the physical requirement or can't do the required drills, could that compromise my potential of being accepted?

Thanks!

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Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:11 pm

toppercentile wrote:Patrick - Thanks for taking time to answer so many questions. I have read many of your answers and I have done as much research as possible. The AF JAG website isn't that helpful, actually.

I will be starting law school this fall and I would like to know who I should contact and when about applying. I know that I cannot apply until after my first year of school, but should I go ahead and establish contacts?

Also, over the past few months I have been trying to get in shape. How important is this in the application/evaluation? If I don't meet the physical requirement or can't do the required drills, could that compromise my potential of being accepted?

Thanks!


As a 1L, you can apply for the Graduate Law Program, GLP:
--LinkRemoved--

The deadline for you to submit everything, to include your SJA interview, is 15 January 2011.

I would touch base with the AF ROTC Detachment Commander that is closest to your law school in the early fall. You will end up needing a letter from him/her saying they will take you on as a cadet. You should also reach out to the nearest AFB and speak their recruiting OIC at base legal. See if there are any office specific procedures or guidelines you need to be aware of in terms of arranging your interview and putting your package together.

I was not selected through GLP/OYCP so I cannot say for sure if there is any physical testing that goes into your application package. I doubt that there is. That said, having the appearance of fitness is a must for any JAG Program. If you look out of shape, you will likely lose some points, even if it is at the subconscious level of the AF officers you'll be dealing with. When I was my office's recruiting OIC, I was always impressed with applicants that not only knew about the AF PT standards, but knew where they stacked up. That is not to say that applicants had to be 90+ on the PT test to be considered, but it was always good to hear that they knew their score range and were aware of where they needed the most improvement.

'CuseLaw2011
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:43 am

Re: Military Law

Postby 'CuseLaw2011 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:58 am

Would anyone with first-hand knowledge know if any particular AF JAG selection board is better suited to a DAP applicant? The AF JAG recruiting site indicates that boards meet every 60 days, so I take that to mean a board will convene December, 2010 (correct me if I'm wrong though). I could apply to this board, but I feel I wouldn't be putting my best foot forward, so to speak. If I apply to the Feb., 2011 board, I will be well into an externship with the U.S.A.O., so I could include a letter of rec. from my supervising attorney. In addition, I'll be a TA for one prof., and an RA for another; I could include letters from them as well. But my application papers will be competing for "face time" with all the GLP/OYCP applicants. Is there any advantage to marshaling the best of what I have now for the December board, or wait for Feb. and hope for the best?

I've been through the GLP and the OYCP application processes, each with negative results. I really want this, so I want to capitalize on any available edge, especially since the DAP applicant pool is, as I understand it, far and away the largest.

toppercentile
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:36 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby toppercentile » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:30 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
toppercentile wrote:Patrick - Thanks for taking time to answer so many questions. I have read many of your answers and I have done as much research as possible. The AF JAG website isn't that helpful, actually.

I will be starting law school this fall and I would like to know who I should contact and when about applying. I know that I cannot apply until after my first year of school, but should I go ahead and establish contacts?

Also, over the past few months I have been trying to get in shape. How important is this in the application/evaluation? If I don't meet the physical requirement or can't do the required drills, could that compromise my potential of being accepted?

Thanks!


As a 1L, you can apply for the Graduate Law Program, GLP:
--LinkRemoved--

The deadline for you to submit everything, to include your SJA interview, is 15 January 2011.

I would touch base with the AF ROTC Detachment Commander that is closest to your law school in the early fall. You will end up needing a letter from him/her saying they will take you on as a cadet. You should also reach out to the nearest AFB and speak their recruiting OIC at base legal. See if there are any office specific procedures or guidelines you need to be aware of in terms of arranging your interview and putting your package together.

I was not selected through GLP/OYCP so I cannot say for sure if there is any physical testing that goes into your application package. I doubt that there is. That said, having the appearance of fitness is a must for any JAG Program. If you look out of shape, you will likely lose some points, even if it is at the subconscious level of the AF officers you'll be dealing with. When I was my office's recruiting OIC, I was always impressed with applicants that not only knew about the AF PT standards, but knew where they stacked up. That is not to say that applicants had to be 90+ on the PT test to be considered, but it was always good to hear that they knew their score range and were aware of where they needed the most improvement.


Thanks, Patrick. -- How can I locate the nearest AF ROTC Detachment Commander? Also, how can I locate the nearest recruiting OIC base legal? And, finally, where can I learn about the AF PT standards? Thanks again!

user101
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Re: Military Law

Postby user101 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:57 pm

Google.com

Minnesota3L
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:59 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Minnesota3L » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Can anyone talk about the role of LORs? I know it's been discussed that we want strong ones, try to include the maximum of five, any LORs from JAGs or O-6 on up you could manage would be great, etc.

If I don't have five glowing and relevant LORs for my package, is that a huge disadvantage? I don't know any military officers, and beyond a couple of profs, moot court directors, and the judge I worked summers for, I don't know in particular who would make a great recommender that can talk me up. Are they looking for evidence of your amazing legal/speaking skills, or are they more like a "character and fitness" kind of recommendation?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:38 pm

toppercentile wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
toppercentile wrote:Patrick - Thanks for taking time to answer so many questions. I have read many of your answers and I have done as much research as possible. The AF JAG website isn't that helpful, actually.

I will be starting law school this fall and I would like to know who I should contact and when about applying. I know that I cannot apply until after my first year of school, but should I go ahead and establish contacts?

Also, over the past few months I have been trying to get in shape. How important is this in the application/evaluation? If I don't meet the physical requirement or can't do the required drills, could that compromise my potential of being accepted?

Thanks!


As a 1L, you can apply for the Graduate Law Program, GLP:
--LinkRemoved--

The deadline for you to submit everything, to include your SJA interview, is 15 January 2011.

I would touch base with the AF ROTC Detachment Commander that is closest to your law school in the early fall. You will end up needing a letter from him/her saying they will take you on as a cadet. You should also reach out to the nearest AFB and speak their recruiting OIC at base legal. See if there are any office specific procedures or guidelines you need to be aware of in terms of arranging your interview and putting your package together.

I was not selected through GLP/OYCP so I cannot say for sure if there is any physical testing that goes into your application package. I doubt that there is. That said, having the appearance of fitness is a must for any JAG Program. If you look out of shape, you will likely lose some points, even if it is at the subconscious level of the AF officers you'll be dealing with. When I was my office's recruiting OIC, I was always impressed with applicants that not only knew about the AF PT standards, but knew where they stacked up. That is not to say that applicants had to be 90+ on the PT test to be considered, but it was always good to hear that they knew their score range and were aware of where they needed the most improvement.


Thanks, Patrick. -- How can I locate the nearest AF ROTC Detachment Commander? Also, how can I locate the nearest recruiting OIC base legal? And, finally, where can I learn about the AF PT standards? Thanks again!


All due respect but you should be able to find all of this on the Interwebs. The ROTC question is entirely dependent on where you are going to law school. Each base will have a legal office, that office will have a recruiting OIC. Just a matter of finding the closest AFB.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:40 pm

'CuseLaw2011 wrote:Would anyone with first-hand knowledge know if any particular AF JAG selection board is better suited to a DAP applicant? The AF JAG recruiting site indicates that boards meet every 60 days, so I take that to mean a board will convene December, 2010 (correct me if I'm wrong though). I could apply to this board, but I feel I wouldn't be putting my best foot forward, so to speak. If I apply to the Feb., 2011 board, I will be well into an externship with the U.S.A.O., so I could include a letter of rec. from my supervising attorney. In addition, I'll be a TA for one prof., and an RA for another; I could include letters from them as well. But my application papers will be competing for "face time" with all the GLP/OYCP applicants. Is there any advantage to marshaling the best of what I have now for the December board, or wait for Feb. and hope for the best?

I've been through the GLP and the OYCP application processes, each with negative results. I really want this, so I want to capitalize on any available edge, especially since the DAP applicant pool is, as I understand it, far and away the largest.


My recommendation is to wait and put the best foot forward. You want to give the SJA as much good stuff to work with as possible. If you interview without these resume perks, you'll be stuck with a recommendation for two boards that does not reflect them.

Don't worry about the "face time" aspect of OYCP/GLP. Different boards, members, and procedures for the various accession programs.

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theskippa10
Posts: 159
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Re: Military Law

Postby theskippa10 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:33 am

Question about letters of Rec. for the internships. Most say that up to five are accepted. Would submitting five be overkill though?

Also, do they want strictly academic/ legal work rec's, or would they want one that can attest to my character. Reason i'm asking is that i've known a retired full bird colonel for about 10 years, and he said he would write me one, but short of saying "i'm always known him to be smart" he can't really say anything about me other than about my character and that he thinks I would be a good fit for service. Do you think that rec would help at all?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:32 pm

theskippa10 wrote:Question about letters of Rec. for the internships. Most say that up to five are accepted. Would submitting five be overkill though?

Also, do they want strictly academic/ legal work rec's, or would they want one that can attest to my character. Reason i'm asking is that i've known a retired full bird colonel for about 10 years, and he said he would write me one, but short of saying "i'm always known him to be smart" he can't really say anything about me other than about my character and that he thinks I would be a good fit for service. Do you think that rec would help at all?


Again, just my personal opinion on this.

Get all five letters if you can get five solid letters. This may mean one is not necessarily pants-crappingly amazing, but if your other four are solid, you will be in good shape.

In your case, I think the O-6 letter would be a goo idea. If your other four speak to your professional/academic aptitude, a letter attesting to your character and potential to be a solid officer from a former senior field-grade with 20+ years might be very helpful for the board.

I think there is definitely room for debate on this but after a few letters of you being good at working/studying, the board getting to know you on a more personal level could be a good thing.

TBJAG
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:44 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby TBJAG » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:41 pm

theskippa10 wrote:Question about letters of Rec. for the internships. Most say that up to five are accepted. Would submitting five be overkill though?

Also, do they want strictly academic/ legal work rec's, or would they want one that can attest to my character. Reason i'm asking is that i've known a retired full bird colonel for about 10 years, and he said he would write me one, but short of saying "i'm always known him to be smart" he can't really say anything about me other than about my character and that he thinks I would be a good fit for service. Do you think that rec would help at all?


Also just my opinion (which counts for less than PB's since I am a mere select), but I would not hesitate to get an LOR from an officer who could speak to your potential as an officer. What better way to show your "whole person" than an LOR from a person who knows something about you other than that you got an A in their class or that you wrote a really nice brief in support of a motion for summary judgment? Besides, you get the LOR's before you turn your packet in. If one of them sucks, you can just leave that one out and you will be glad you got that fifth one.

For what it's worth my LOR's were:
- Law school professor
- Law school professor who also happened to teach my military law class, went to the USAFA, was an active duty pilot and now a reserve JAG (Major)
- Magistrate that I worked with
- Trial court judge that I worked for
- Law school classmate who is a retired Army O-5 (my personal LOR equivalent to your O-6 friend)

If you want to see lots of selectee's stats, including who their LOR's were from, take a look at http://www.airforceots.com/portal/modul ... ic&t=18369

Baylan
Posts: 356
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Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:49 am

What do you think of a lower ranked officer giving a LOR? I have a very very good friend that is just going active duty straight from undergrad (ROTC graduate). Obviously it won't sit as highly as an O-5 or O-6, or a JAG giving a letter of rec, but would it still be a good idea if I'm looking for that "fifth" LOR for my application?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:42 am

Baylan wrote:What do you think of a lower ranked officer giving a LOR? I have a very very good friend that is just going active duty straight from undergrad (ROTC graduate). Obviously it won't sit as highly as an O-5 or O-6, or a JAG giving a letter of rec, but would it still be a good idea if I'm looking for that "fifth" LOR for my application?


I would caution against a letter from a cherry 2nd Lt. A junior CGO really does not have the experience to say much about leadership/officership potential. It's the same reason why I would never write a Letter of Rec for an intern - what the hell do I know after a mere two years of service?

Even under exceptional circumstances, like your friend leads an Infantry platoon, there is still going to be a prejudice against a Lieutenant recommending a peer to be a fellow officer.

Again, just my personal opinion on this.

Baylan
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Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:15 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Baylan wrote:What do you think of a lower ranked officer giving a LOR? I have a very very good friend that is just going active duty straight from undergrad (ROTC graduate). Obviously it won't sit as highly as an O-5 or O-6, or a JAG giving a letter of rec, but would it still be a good idea if I'm looking for that "fifth" LOR for my application?


I would caution against a letter from a cherry 2nd Lt. A junior CGO really does not have the experience to say much about leadership/officership potential. It's the same reason why I would never write a Letter of Rec for an intern - what the hell do I know after a mere two years of service?

Even under exceptional circumstances, like your friend leads an Infantry platoon, there is still going to be a prejudice against a Lieutenant recommending a peer to be a fellow officer.

Again, just my personal opinion on this.


That is why I asked. I was afraid of that. Guess I'll just be pursuing other options. I appreciate the feedback!

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:25 pm

I have my on campus interview scheduled for the Army summer internship next month. I just have to finish the application online. I need to start preparing soon. Anyone have any tips for the interview? What to expect? Questions that they ask? How to present yourself?

I would really like either the Army or Air Force summer internship next summer and want to do everything I can to get one of them. After working for free all summer it would be nice to get paid working in a field that I would enjoy. Getting one of these internships I think would also do wonders for an active duty JAG application package because I can prove myself on a day to day basis and maybe even interview at the office or at least get a great LOR to help out.

GatorStudent
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Re: Military Law

Postby GatorStudent » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:51 pm

Rocky Estoppel wrote:I have my on campus interview scheduled for the Army summer internship next month. I just have to finish the application online. I need to start preparing soon. Anyone have any tips for the interview? What to expect? Questions that they ask? How to present yourself?

I would really like either the Army or Air Force summer internship next summer and want to do everything I can to get one of them. After working for free all summer it would be nice to get paid working in a field that I would enjoy. Getting one of these internships I think would also do wonders for an active duty JAG application package because I can prove myself on a day to day basis and maybe even interview at the office or at least get a great LOR to help out.


It's really not much different than interviewing with a private firm (at least for the Army summer internship). Just do your research. However, there are slight differences. For example, my interviewer for the Army summer internship apologized for having to look down as she writes, because she has to send a certain paper with my answers to the selection board. Also, obviously he/she will ask you why you want to do military service!

Good luck!

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Rocky Estoppel
Posts: 283
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:59 pm

GatorStudent wrote:
Rocky Estoppel wrote:I have my on campus interview scheduled for the Army summer internship next month. I just have to finish the application online. I need to start preparing soon. Anyone have any tips for the interview? What to expect? Questions that they ask? How to present yourself?

I would really like either the Army or Air Force summer internship next summer and want to do everything I can to get one of them. After working for free all summer it would be nice to get paid working in a field that I would enjoy. Getting one of these internships I think would also do wonders for an active duty JAG application package because I can prove myself on a day to day basis and maybe even interview at the office or at least get a great LOR to help out.


It's really not much different than interviewing with a private firm (at least for the Army summer internship). Just do your research. However, there are slight differences. For example, my interviewer for the Army summer internship apologized for having to look down as she writes, because she has to send a certain paper with my answers to the selection board. Also, obviously he/she will ask you why you want to do military service!

Good luck!


Did you do the summer internship?

GatorStudent
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Re: Military Law

Postby GatorStudent » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:40 pm

Rocky Estoppel wrote:Did you do the summer internship?


I'll send you a pm.

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theskippa10
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Re: Military Law

Postby theskippa10 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:10 am

mind sending me one as well? I'm in the same boat

GatorStudent
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Re: Military Law

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:27 pm

theskippa10 wrote:mind sending me one as well? I'm in the same boat


Sure thing!

lsatClay
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Re: Military Law

Postby lsatClay » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:08 pm

What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing the 1L and 2L internships? Applying as a 1L, I'm concerned about a) my resume being a bit light and b) not having the best LOR yet. But then again, most people are in the same boat, right? If I don't make it my 1L year, can I reapply for 2L?

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:29 pm

This is probably a ridiculous question but I am baffled. I cannot find the USAF's DAP deadlines on their website. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


lsatClay wrote:What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing the 1L and 2L internships? Applying as a 1L, I'm concerned about a) my resume being a bit light and b) not having the best LOR yet. But then again, most people are in the same boat, right? If I don't make it my 1L year, can I reapply for 2L?

Which branch? I was a 1L intern and it continually sets me apart from others. Lots of people are aware of JAG, intrigued by it, and acknowledge the quality of work done. It hasn't, however, gotten me a commission yet but I have faith that will change my 3L year.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:48 pm

Esquire wrote:This is probably a ridiculous question but I am baffled. I cannot find the USAF's DAP deadlines on their website. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Every other month. There was an August board. Next board is Oct. Then Dec, Feb, April, June.

You have to have your interview by the 15th prior to the first of the month the board meets, e.g., to be eligible for the October DAP board you have to have your interview done by 15 Sept.

lsatClay
Posts: 44
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Re: Military Law

Postby lsatClay » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:09 pm

Esquire wrote:This is probably a ridiculous question but I am baffled. I cannot find the USAF's DAP deadlines on their website. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


lsatClay wrote:What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing the 1L and 2L internships? Applying as a 1L, I'm concerned about a) my resume being a bit light and b) not having the best LOR yet. But then again, most people are in the same boat, right? If I don't make it my 1L year, can I reapply for 2L?

Which branch? I was a 1L intern and it continually sets me apart from others. Lots of people are aware of JAG, intrigued by it, and acknowledge the quality of work done. It hasn't, however, gotten me a commission yet but I have faith that will change my 3L year.


Air Force. I'm more concerned about how competitive I will be for the 1L internship, given I haven't had time to integrate myself into the school yet.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:51 pm

lsatClay wrote: Air Force. I'm more concerned about how competitive I will be for the 1L internship, given I haven't had time to integrate myself into the school yet.


Your odds of an 1L Air Force internship are 0%. Mostly because it doesn't exist.

The Army has 1L and 2L programs. USAF only has a 2L program.

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