Military Law

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malxneal
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby malxneal » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:47 pm

[quote="Patrick Bateman"][quote="screen_name1"]If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(1) How does military retirement work from the Reserves? Say you did active duty Air Force JAG for 4 years, then Reserves for 4, completing your initial contract, but then decided to stay in the Reserves. Can you get a military retirement that way too and "double dip" along with, say, a federal govt retirement? Is retirement from the Reserves under such a scheme feasible, or are there "up our out" type provisions that would prevent that?



For a reserve retirement, you would have to have at least 20 "good" reserve years which would include all of your reserve and active time served, but once you reach 20 years you still don't collect until age 65! For an ACTIVE retirement, you collect immediately after retirement, but in this case your reserve time would not count, only your 4 years of active duty plus 16 more years. Although you would have to wait until 65 to collect, you could absolutely get both a reserve retirement AND federal civilian service retirement.

nfreeman
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Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:45 am

Re: Military Law

Postby nfreeman » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:29 pm

I'm very sold on applying to the JAGs--what would you say is the best way to maximize my chances of getting in (OLCP vs. GLP)? I'm 24 and would prefer to start law school in the next two years, but would I have a significant edge if I applied to JAG with prior military experience? How much would I need for it to make a difference? Also, does the pre-JAG ROTC have the same requirements as regular ROTC? If so, wouldn't it be better to spread all that work over two years instead of one? Does it provide a monthly allowance (I assume it would be minimal)? Do you know which law schools have the most JAG-friendly LRAP programs? I'm aiming for the Top-14 and I've heard UVA is pretty good for JAG. Also, I still don't understand how LRAP complements IBR.

Overall, how are you enjoying life as a JAG? I've heard that JAGs are officers first and lawyers second, so how much of your work is "legal stuff" vs. "officer stuff"? For me, I'd prefer a job that is rewarding, interesting, and provides a balanced life over one that just earns a ton of money, and from what I've heard JAG matches that.

Having a family-friendly career is also very important to me; do you consider Air Force JAG to be family-friendly overall? I've heard the military as a whole has an incredibly high divorce rate, but I'm hopeful the Air Force is different.

Couple more q's:
--There's been a lot of talk about cuts in defense spending: how much do you think that could affect JAG career stability/benefits?
--I'm also interested in the FBI. Do you think the FBI would favor former JAGs?
--How much would knowing a foreign language determine where you're based? I speak fluent Italian and Czech, and I'm beginning to learn Farsi as well.
--Would getting a JD-MPA give me an edge at all? Would it serve any value for a JAG?

That should cover all the bases. Thanks again for your help, and I hope to join you in the JAGs someday.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:45 pm

nfreeman wrote:I'm very sold on applying to the JAGs--what would you say is the best way to maximize my chances of getting in (OLCP vs. GLP)? I'm 24 and would prefer to start law school in the next two years, but would I have a significant edge if I applied to JAG with prior military experience? How much would I need for it to make a difference? Also, does the pre-JAG ROTC have the same requirements as regular ROTC? If so, wouldn't it be better to spread all that work over two years instead of one? Does it provide a monthly allowance (I assume it would be minimal)? Do you know which law schools have the most JAG-friendly LRAP programs? I'm aiming for the Top-14 and I've heard UVA is pretty good for JAG. Also, I still don't understand how LRAP complements IBR.

Overall, how are you enjoying life as a JAG? I've heard that JAGs are officers first and lawyers second, so how much of your work is "legal stuff" vs. "officer stuff"? For me, I'd prefer a job that is rewarding, interesting, and provides a balanced life over one that just earns a ton of money, and from what I've heard JAG matches that.

Having a family-friendly career is also very important to me; do you consider Air Force JAG to be family-friendly overall? I've heard the military as a whole has an incredibly high divorce rate, but I'm hopeful the Air Force is different.

Couple more q's:
--There's been a lot of talk about cuts in defense spending: how much do you think that could affect JAG career stability/benefits?
--I'm also interested in the FBI. Do you think the FBI would favor former JAGs?
--How much would knowing a foreign language determine where you're based? I speak fluent Italian and Czech, and I'm beginning to learn Farsi as well.
--Would getting a JD-MPA give me an edge at all? Would it serve any value for a JAG?

That should cover all the bases. Thanks again for your help, and I hope to join you in the JAGs someday.


I would recommend applying off the bat for GLP and then OYCP and then DAP if necessary. I don't know the precise ROTC requirements that comes with OYCP/GLP but none of my OYCP/GLP friends ever complained that the ROTC workload conflicted with their law school commitments. You do get a monthly stipend with ROTC - it is $300-$500. I am not conversant with the best T-14 LRAP programs. From my years lurking law school message board, UVa does come immediately to mind but I cannot say about the others. One of my friends at my office is NYU Law and she is not getting a cent from them.

In terms of my overall satisfaction with JAG, I would rate it as 10/10. I have absolutely zero regrets with my decision. I've gained a ton of trial experience and love going to work each day. I'm at one of the busiest bases in the AF right now but even with the longer hours, I have great co-workers and as much as I despise this phrase, there is a true "work hard, play hard" mentality. The longer hours is relative, but I'm probably 55-60 hours a week in the past few months. That said, I've been averaging a court-martial every three weeks, which is pretty unusual

I think my average week is streets ahead of what it could be were I in a law firm. I spent today in an Article 32 investigative hearing, my Monday was on our firing range getting training on the M-9 (9mm Beretta 92). Two weeks ago I spent a training day with our Ground Combat Training Squadron and had an hour training on/firing a Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher. You'll get to deal with legal situations you will not find out of the military and then some just cool Air Force experiences along the way.

The lawyer and officer concept is not mutually exclusive. Your function in the AF is an attorney, but in that role you have the responsibilities and privileges afforded to all officers. There is an active expectation that you set the example, do the right thing, look out for your peers and subordinates, etc. The military takes the almost chivalrous notion of officership seriously. I don't want to get too in the weeds on this but your role as an attorney is practical, your role as an officer is a little more philosophical.

JAG is family friendly overall. You have to keep in mind though that you will be moving every two years. Sometimes those locations are not anywhere you will be excited about living. You can also expect to deploy at least once every four years for a 6 month tour. I truly do not believe that JAG is any harder on family life than any other way to practice law. Typically the work-life balance is much better.

JAG has never been directly affected by DoD spending issues. In the AF, we are exempt from force-shaping (involuntary separation) in order to keep our legal advice untainted.

JAG is a great spring-board into other fed agencies. Most of the JAGs I know personally that have separated have either gone DoJ/USAO/DHS. You are not going to gain any investigative knowledge as a JAG but you will get the street cred of having served as an officer and doing it in a law enforcement capacity.

The foreign language aspect will help you out on your application but probably will not impact your station assignments too much. Only 10-15% of the available assignments are OCONUS (outside Continental United States) and a smaller portion of that is Europe. And even if you land Europe, you are only there for 2-3 years. This may give you the ability to do some really cool things later in your career but generally your first 4-6 years are spent in the trenches at a Base Legal office. The assignments do not usually diversify until you hit your 3rd assignment as a Captain (5-6 years in) or after.

The MPA probably may give you some extra points in the application process but it won't be a huge factor. I don't think I can name any JAGs I know that came in with a Masters. A lot of the Majors/Lt Cols earn LLMs or Masters down the road but most of us starting out are just BA/BS and JD.

Baylan
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Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:37 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:I would recommend applying off the bat for GLP and then OYCP and then DAP if necessary. I don't know the precise ROTC requirements that comes with OYCP/GLP but none of my OYCP/GLP friends ever complained that the ROTC workload conflicted with their law school commitments. You do get a monthly stipend with ROTC - it is $300-$500. I am not conversant with the best T-14 LRAP programs. From my years lurking law school message board, UVa does come immediately to mind but I cannot say about the others. One of my friends at my office is NYU Law and she is not getting a cent from them.

In terms of my overall satisfaction with JAG, I would rate it as 10/10. I have absolutely zero regrets with my decision. I've gained a ton of trial experience and love going to work each day. I'm at one of the busiest bases in the AF right now but even with the longer hours, I have great co-workers and as much as I despise this phrase, there is a true "work hard, play hard" mentality. The longer hours is relative, but I'm probably 55-60 hours a week in the past few months. That said, I've been averaging a court-martial every three weeks, which is pretty unusual

I think my average week is streets ahead of what it could be were I in a law firm. I spent today in an Article 32 investigative hearing, my Monday was on our firing range getting training on the M-9 (9mm Beretta 92). Two weeks ago I spent a training day with our Ground Combat Training Squadron and had an hour training on/firing a Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher. You'll get to deal with legal situations you will not find out of the military and then some just cool Air Force experiences along the way.

The lawyer and officer concept is not mutually exclusive. Your function in the AF is an attorney, but in that role you have the responsibilities and privileges afforded to all officers. There is an active expectation that you set the example, do the right thing, look out for your peers and subordinates, etc. The military takes the almost chivalrous notion of officership seriously. I don't want to get too in the weeds on this but your role as an attorney is practical, your role as an officer is a little more philosophical.

JAG is family friendly overall. You have to keep in mind though that you will be moving every two years. Sometimes those locations are not anywhere you will be excited about living. You can also expect to deploy at least once every four years for a 6 month tour. I truly do not believe that JAG is any harder on family life than any other way to practice law. Typically the work-life balance is much better.

JAG has never been directly affected by DoD spending issues. In the AF, we are exempt from force-shaping (involuntary separation) in order to keep our legal advice untainted.

JAG is a great spring-board into other fed agencies. Most of the JAGs I know personally that have separated have either gone DoJ/USAO/DHS. You are not going to gain any investigative knowledge as a JAG but you will get the street cred of having served as an officer and doing it in a law enforcement capacity.

The foreign language aspect will help you out on your application but probably will not impact your station assignments too much. Only 10-15% of the available assignments are OCONUS (outside Continental United States) and a smaller portion of that is Europe. And even if you land Europe, you are only there for 2-3 years. This may give you the ability to do some really cool things later in your career but generally your first 4-6 years are spent in the trenches at a Base Legal office. The assignments do not usually diversify until you hit your 3rd assignment as a Captain (5-6 years in) or after.

The MPA probably may give you some extra points in the application process but it won't be a huge factor. I don't think I can name any JAGs I know that came in with a Masters. A lot of the Majors/Lt Cols earn LLMs or Masters down the road but most of us starting out are just BA/BS and JD.


Could you elaborate some on the bolded? I've heard about some of the force-shaping going on (AF planning on cutting something like 3% of total personnel, correct?). Do you mean that JAGs are never involuntarily discharged (ehhh double negative), or that they aren't directly "cut" during force shaping, unlike other professions/specialties within the AF and other branches?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:04 pm

Baylan wrote: Could you elaborate some on the bolded? I've heard about some of the force-shaping going on (AF planning on cutting something like 3% of total personnel, correct?). Do you mean that JAGs are never involuntarily discharged (ehhh double negative), or that they aren't directly "cut" during force shaping, unlike other professions/specialties within the AF and other branches?


Again, let me preface that I am no expert on this stuff, merely a JAG in the base legal trenches.

My understanding is that JAG as a career field is not force shaped. If for some reason it is determined we are over-manned given new AF requirements, we simply hire in less entry-level JAGs instead of force shaping current JAGs. In other words, we are not directly cut.

We are subject to the same "up or out" requirements in terms of having to leave if we are not selected for promotion 2-3 times (below the zone, in the zone, above the zone).

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:14 pm

New Navy JAG application deadlines are out. They have switched from a 3-board-per-year system to 2, like the Army.

3milesup
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Re: Military Law

Postby 3milesup » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:18 pm

Questions to the vets and old timers on filling out the DoDMERBS Army JAG online medical forms:

So these questions about my medical history are VERY expansive. I am a bit older than many applicants (39 y.o.) so unfortunately (at my advanced age) I've had more medical events.

Do I need to report EVERY little thing that happened to me:
-- my wisdom tooth extractions (no complications)??
-- a few moles removed (benign)??
-- had a urinary tract infection once 10 years ago; no side effects or recurrences??
-- went to a therapist for family issues a few years back (nothing too serious)??

Also ....

I had an appendectomy about 13 years ago .... I have no idea who the surgeon was. Went to ER and spent two days in the hospital recovering. I had no health insurance at the time (was in Grad School). Do I need to contact the hospital to try and obtain the records (if any) they may have on file??

Any ideas/advice??

Thanks!

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby joemoviebuff » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:04 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No advice for you. Just wanted to point out that you have a badass screenname. Band of Brothers FTW.

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:20 pm

use your best judgment my friend. I don't think it is necessary to report things like "wisdom teeth removed." They are looking for glaring medical conditions that would inhibit your ability to perform as a military officer i.e. asthma, ACL tear, etc etc

3milesup
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Re: Military Law

Postby 3milesup » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:43 pm

OIF2LAW wrote:use your best judgment my friend. I don't think it is necessary to report things like "wisdom teeth removed." They are looking for glaring medical conditions that would inhibit your ability to perform as a military officer i.e. asthma, ACL tear, etc etc


Hmmmm .... I also had an ACL tear years ago, but received restorative (arthroscopic) knee surgery. No problems since. You think this will be a problem??

Thanks for your advice otherwise.


joemoviebuff wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No advice for you. Just wanted to point out that you have a badass screenname. Band of Brothers FTW.


Yeah, thanks; love that series! Currahee!

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:42 am

I just saw Band of Brothers for the first time a few months ago...awesome series. Has anyone seen the Pacific? I hear that's pretty awesome as well. I can't wait until it comes out on DVD.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby joemoviebuff » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:21 am

Eagle wrote:I just saw Band of Brothers for the first time a few months ago...awesome series. Has anyone seen the Pacific? I hear that's pretty awesome as well. I can't wait until it comes out on DVD.


It's not Band of Brothers, but still a pretty great miniseries.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:30 am

joemoviebuff wrote:
Eagle wrote:I just saw Band of Brothers for the first time a few months ago...awesome series. Has anyone seen the Pacific? I hear that's pretty awesome as well. I can't wait until it comes out on DVD.


It's not Band of Brothers, but still a pretty great miniseries.

I gave it a couple of episodes and it didn't suck me in like Band of Brothers did. Felt it was kinda bleh. Should I give it another try?

I think I may have been expecting another BoB where I felt invested in about 2 minutes.

upnorthguy
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Re: Military Law

Postby upnorthguy » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:56 am

3milesup- It sounds like some of those are going to need to be explained. Are you filling out form DD 2492 or something similar? From what I've seen, all the forms ask about any prior surgeries or hospitalizations so your appendectomy and ACL are going to be on there (and require any/all information). I agree that your wisdom teeth being extracted (normal, no complications) does not sound noteworthy (you'll have a full dental exam later and they check on the wisdom teeth). I also don't think the moles or urinary tract infection sound like they'll make it on there, but it depends on the questions you see on the forms.

Since I'm working the ARNG route, I'm dealing with MEPS and those forms requested all medical records for anything that I answered "yes" to on the big list of questions. This included any ER visits or overnight hospital stays. My explanation included ER trips for: a five stitch cut, an x-ray after a broken nose, a visist after a pulled hammy and a short hospitalization for an infection when I was a kid. I was able to get the records for the hospital stay but nothing on the broken nose so I just included the letter from the hospital stating that those records had been destroyed.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:42 pm

Rotor wrote:I gave it a couple of episodes and it didn't suck me in like Band of Brothers did. Felt it was kinda bleh. Should I give it another try?

I think I may have been expecting another BoB where I felt invested in about 2 minutes.


For some reason, I'm always partial to WWII movies against the Nazis. I can't really pinpoint why, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that my grandfather fought against the Nazis and not the Japanese. That said, I think Clint Eastwood's Letters from Iwo Jima is a fantastic film (but it's no BoB or Saving Private Ryan).

3milesup
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Re: Military Law

Postby 3milesup » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:23 pm

upnorthguy wrote:3milesup- It sounds like some of those are going to need to be explained. Are you filling out form DD 2492 or something similar? From what I've seen, all the forms ask about any prior surgeries or hospitalizations so your appendectomy and ACL are going to be on there (and require any/all information). . . .


Thanks for the tips upnorthguy!

As an Army Reserve JAG candidate, they have us use an online system that asks 80 some odd questions (e.g., have you ever been admitted to a hospital -- yes or no). For each "yes" answer, you need to explain -- dates, doctors, what happened, etc. There are forms that I guess are populated based on the responses and when we go to the doctor for the medical screening (no MEPS for active or reserve JAGs) we bring the forms with us (I haven't gotten that far yet in the system but will update this post as I get further along.

The problem I'm having is that I don't recall who the doctors were in each case -- didn't keep any records. So now I am ordering copies of my records from the hospitals where my appendectomy, ACL surgery took place.

For me, this is the most P.I.T.A. part of this process.

Eagle wrote:For some reason, I'm always partial to WWII movies against the Nazis. I can't really pinpoint why, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that my grandfather fought against the Nazis and not the Japanese. . . .


That's funny Eagle, while I always do enjoy watching the Nazi's get their a$$es kicked (Guns of Navarone, Force 10 from Navarone; The Longest Day, Where Eagles Dare, etc.), I am partial to the Pacific Theater war films (Sands of Iwo Jima, Attack Force Z; Tora, Tora Tora, etc.). My grandfathers both served in the Pacific so .... your theory might hold water! I had high hopes for TP. In isolation, it's great. But comparing it to BoB, it is definitely a 2d.

Minnesota3L
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Re: Military Law

Postby Minnesota3L » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:14 am

Can anyone who has recently been through the DAP process, or is currently active and has heard, say anything about increased numbers of applicants and selectivity of recent boards?

I'd imagine things are at least as ramped-up as they were circa 2008/9 when the private sector really took a dive, but I don't really know.

HyeMart
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Re: Military Law

Postby HyeMart » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:51 am

can anyone give some examples of cases that a jag (af, army, navy, marines) would get in his first year, second year, third, etc.?

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:00 pm

I'm not a JAG and the answers depend greatly on where you are assigned and to what service. Typically, in the Army, Navy, and Air Force legal assistance is where many start their first year. This may not involve "cases" so much as doing wills, helping soldiers/sailors/airmen minimize the negative impacts of the stupid agreements they might sign, like a lease to own with absurdly high interest rates. Or maybe helping them with Servicemembers' civil relief act type stuff.

A follow-up or sometimes first assignment would be in military justice, although my understanding is that there are few courts-martial in the Air Force. (The AF O-5 I talked to tried to get one small case for everyone in their first year) After that, it opens up to a lot of different things, depending on your base and service. Some will be doing contracting, op law if you're downrange, or you could be doing environmental work at the base. Again, not a JAG, so these are just a few of the things I've seen.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:48 pm

HyeMart wrote:can anyone give some examples of cases that a jag (af, army, navy, marines) would get in his first year, second year, third, etc.?

For Navy - if you start out in prosecution, you'll get any type of crime covered under the UCMJ from day 1. If you're defense, they typically start with legal aid with a mix of defense work at admin boards and other hearings. But you'll still be defending all UCMJ crimes within your first 3 year tour.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:18 pm

HyeMart wrote:can anyone give some examples of cases that a jag (af, army, navy, marines) would get in his first year, second year, third, etc.?


Abuse of a public animal.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/mil ... l134-1.htm

HyeMart
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Re: Military Law

Postby HyeMart » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:06 am

As an animal rights activist, that is appealing

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amputatedbrain
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Re: Military Law

Postby amputatedbrain » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:14 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
HyeMart wrote:can anyone give some examples of cases that a jag (af, army, navy, marines) would get in his first year, second year, third, etc.?


Abuse of a public animal.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/mil ... l134-1.htm


I don't know if you're joking, but this probably comes up a lot at bases like 29 Palms, where there are endangered species living on the training areas.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:35 am

That was a (failed) attempt at humor. Law students can be so serious.

The general rule for AF JAG is that you will have two assignments in your first four years, two years each. One year at each assignment will be doing Military Justice, the other will be in a civil law billet. This can vary from base to base, depending on the mission and manning.

I'm at one of the busier Military Justice bases and we try courts for the entire two year period, both as Justice and Civil Law attorneys. I'll have ten courts under my belt at the 19 month mark. Most of my courts are drug (112a) though my office has seen some violent crimes and the more random issues like check fraud.

The court load is entirely dependent on your base. Air Combat and Air Mobility Command bases tend to have younger Airmen that make the mistakes younger people do, so more courts. Space and Material Command tend to have more senior Airmen and civilians, and usually see less courts because there are less crimes. Even then, courts tend to come in waves and troughs, feast and famine.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:07 pm

Another good article re: civil service & military retirement from govexec.com (to drag up a conversation from a page or two back)

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0710/073010rp.htm




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