Military Law

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:38 pm

wrichcirw wrote:AF is definitely the way to go. I've had too many Army guys tell me that to believe otherwise...


If by Air Force you mean "Chair Force"....jk :D

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:45 pm

wrichcirw wrote:It looks like BigLaw frowns upon people in my age set (I'll be 36 upon graduating LS) for what I assume to be reasons relating to virility, and frankly, after hearing about the 80+ hour weeks, I'd have to say that it seems to exceed the military's ability to destroy family life, and is thus not for me. JAG thus looks exceptionally attractive to me.

I thought the same thing as I was starting last year. However, conversations I've had with hiring partners at several firms have said this stereotype is not true-- even for guys my age (43). I guess we'll see if they walk the walk this fall at OCIP, but for now I can only go on what they have told me. :)

That still doesn't address your QOL issues, even if 80+ hours is probably just myth (most weeks...). But I mention it so you don't foreclose any options (especially if you're barred from going the JAG route).

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:13 am

wrichcirw wrote:Congrats to the lucky few who made it. :P AF is definitely the way to go. I've had too many Army guys tell me that to believe otherwise... :lol:

To Capt Bateman,

I tried calling the 800 number a couple times - my guess is that JAG recruiting is a rather specialized AFSC (or perhaps a specialized part of a specialized AFSC), so I got the answering machine. Do you have an email contact, perhaps of whomever is the current JAG recruiter? I'd much appreciate it.


JAG is totally different when it comes to personnel compared to the rest of the Air Force (and what you are likely used to from your prior service). The professional development branch of JAG, known as JAX, handles everything in this department, from incoming accessions to officer assignments. There is a senior O-3 that handles all the incoming JAGs and an O-4 that does all Reserve & Guard.

--LinkRemoved--

Maj Johnson should be able to answer your questions far better than I could. If there are still some hanging after you talk to him, let me know.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:10 am

Eagle wrote:You might be in better shape, Ed. Part of the reason I got the late start date is because California waits forever to return bar results. Bar results in California come out in late November. The other reason is that I waited until the last minute to submit my letter of intent. In hindsight, I probably should have submitted it the day I got accepted. I was still waiting for my results from Navy JAG at the time and didn't want to lead Army JAG on in case I chose Navy.

I don't know what I'm going to do for a full year after I take the bar. I'll probably have to clerk for $15/hr. without benefits at some private law firm. I doubt anybody would be willing to hire me full time if I'm just going to leave in a year. One thing is for sure---I'm going to be crashing on my parents' sofa.


My JAOBC is scheduled for July 2011. Looks like you were right that waiting to submit the statement of intent will get you a later class date. Future Army JAGs beware!

I am going to get a job waiting tables or something until then. "We have a few specials that are not on the menu tonight." -Undead Ed, Esq.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:01 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:My JAOBC is scheduled for July 2011. Looks like you were right that waiting to submit the statement of intent will get you a later class date. Future Army JAGs beware!

I am going to get a job waiting tables or something until then. "We have a few specials that are not on the menu tonight." -Undead Ed, Esq.


I called JARO and found out that the February slot has been over-booked for months now. I was told that most people who are taking the July 2010 bar got the July 2011 slot. I apparently got the September 2011 spot because of California's late bar results. The logic doesn't quite make sense to me because I would know way in advance of July 2011 whether I passed the bar or not. Oh well...That kind of kills the 65K loan repayment financial incentive when the average salary of a first year associate in CA is at least that. And it would be pretty unethical to interview for job as a junior associate if I knew all along I wouldn't be doing it beyond a year. That pretty much only leaves open law clerk/contract lawyer jobs at anywhere between $15/hr. and $35/hr with no benefits.

I'm seriously considering volunteering in California's senate races. If my desired candidate wins, I might be able to score a job as a congressional aide in DC for a year and that would be pretty sweet.

sfalloon
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Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:02 pm

wrichcirw wrote: Do you have an email contact, perhaps of whomever is the current JAG recruiter? I'd much appreciate it.


Wrichcirw,

I have had a smilar experience with the AF's 800 number; no one answers. The online questionnaire for AF JAG is a lot better, I received a response a day after submitting a querry.
http://www.airforce.com/jag
The above site will take you directly to AF JAG. You should be able to find the querry page from there.

Capt. Desio of the Cheif Recruiting Branch in DC, responded to my questions. I posted her email info below.

LAURA C. Y. DESIO, Capt, USAF
e-mail: Laura.DeSio@pentagon.af.mil

sfalloon
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Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:08 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:
Eagle wrote:You might be in better shape, Ed. Part of the reason I got the late start date is because California waits forever to return bar results. Bar results in California come out in late November. The other reason is that I waited until the last minute to submit my letter of intent. In hindsight, I probably should have submitted it the day I got accepted. I was still waiting for my results from Navy JAG at the time and didn't want to lead Army JAG on in case I chose Navy.

I don't know what I'm going to do for a full year after I take the bar. I'll probably have to clerk for $15/hr. without benefits at some private law firm. I doubt anybody would be willing to hire me full time if I'm just going to leave in a year. One thing is for sure---I'm going to be crashing on my parents' sofa.


My JAOBC is scheduled for July 2011. Looks like you were right that waiting to submit the statement of intent will get you a later class date. Future Army JAGs beware!

I am going to get a job waiting tables or something until then. "We have a few specials that are not on the menu tonight." -Undead Ed, Esq.



Have you both considered the Legal Aid Societies in your city? They might be willing to employ you for a year. If not some states have Civic Corps that look for persons with Legal experience or training. I know it's not ideal and it might be unpaid but it's away of using and improving your skills until your JAG career starts.

Good luck.

TenaciousD
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Re: Military Law

Postby TenaciousD » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:06 pm

Eagle wrote:
Undead_Ed wrote:My JAOBC is scheduled for July 2011. Looks like you were right that waiting to submit the statement of intent will get you a later class date. Future Army JAGs beware!

I am going to get a job waiting tables or something until then. "We have a few specials that are not on the menu tonight." -Undead Ed, Esq.


I called JARO and found out that the February slot has been over-booked for months now. I was told that most people who are taking the July 2010 bar got the July 2011 slot. I apparently got the September 2011 spot because of California's late bar results. The logic doesn't quite make sense to me because I would know way in advance of July 2011 whether I passed the bar or not. Oh well...That kind of kills the 65K loan repayment financial incentive when the average salary of a first year associate in CA is at least that. And it would be pretty unethical to interview for job as a junior associate if I knew all along I wouldn't be doing it beyond a year. That pretty much only leaves open law clerk/contract lawyer jobs at anywhere between $15/hr. and $35/hr with no benefits.

I'm seriously considering volunteering in California's senate races. If my desired candidate wins, I might be able to score a job as a congressional aide in DC for a year and that would be pretty sweet.


Completely disagree re: ethics. It'd be wrong to lie during an interview, but at-will employment is at-will employment. If you leave early you might not leave with a great reference, but people do it all the time (some with predetermined plans, others not). The jobs are hard to come by, but don't avoid them just because you're worried about leaving early!

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:45 pm

TenaciousD wrote:Completely disagree re: ethics. It'd be wrong to lie during an interview, but at-will employment is at-will employment. If you leave early you might not leave with a great reference, but people do it all the time (some with predetermined plans, others not). The jobs are hard to come by, but don't avoid them just because you're worried about leaving early!


I agree somewhat with what you are saying. If I were working for a big firm that could more easily absorb the cost, I wouldn't have any qualms about working there for a year. If I were working for a small firm and had the experience to start making the firm money right from the start, I also wouldn't have any qualms about only working there for a year. However, I don't have this experience and the firm would therefore probably lose money by training me during this first year. There are some exceptions (e.g. civil lit firms that just need warm bodies to sit through depositions), but I think most small firms don't even break even with first year associates. I'm not going to work for a small firm just to line my pockets and then screw them over.

jhare
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Re: Military Law

Postby jhare » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:35 am

Hey everyone. I made the decision to join the Army. I got into some great (but very expensive) schools this passed cycle and realize that ITE I don't feel comfortable going 200k+ in student loans. So instead I decided to take a 3 year enlistment in the Army. My plans are to still go to law school, either by 1) while I"m serving trying to apply to the FLEP program or 2) If I don't get accepted to FLEP using the GI Bill to pay for LS and trying to get a Direct Commission. I leave October for BCT and I'm very excited. I do have a couple questions though.....

I know to apply for FLEP I need to be an officer, but for several reasons I'm entering as Enlisted (don't judge). I plan on applying to OCS once I'm in. If I'm accepted to OCS how much more service time will be added to my commitment?

Also, if I decide that being a JAG is exactly what I want to do, what are the chances I will be able to do that?

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:53 am

jhare wrote:Hey everyone. I made the decision to join the Army. I got into some great (but very expensive) schools this passed cycle and realize that ITE I don't feel comfortable going 200k+ in student loans. So instead I decided to take a 3 year enlistment in the Army. My plans are to still go to law school, either by 1) while I"m serving trying to apply to the FLEP program or 2) If I don't get accepted to FLEP using the GI Bill to pay for LS and trying to get a Direct Commission. I leave October for BCT and I'm very excited. I do have a couple questions though.....

I know to apply for FLEP I need to be an officer, but for several reasons I'm entering as Enlisted (don't judge). I plan on applying to OCS once I'm in. If I'm accepted to OCS how much more service time will be added to my commitment?

Also, if I decide that being a JAG is exactly what I want to do, what are the chances I will be able to do that?


This is the route that I went. You will incur a 3 year service obligation from the day you commission. Listen man, I cannot stress this enough - YOU NEED TO HAVE OCS IN YOUR CONTRACT SO THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERED A "COLLEGE OP."

The timeline for college ops is as follows:

1) attend basic as an E4
2) attend OCS immediately after as an E5
3) attend branch specific Officer Basic Course
4) deploy with your first unit
5) fulfill your obligation

Along the way you will qualify for a VA Loan (buy a house with no money down) and GI Bill. Not having OCS guaranteed in your contract can really delay your plans. In all reality, your unit and brigade must approve your OCS packet before you can even consider going. They may not do this until you have served a couple years honorably. Tack three more years onto this course of action. It's not the way to do it and don't let your recruiter lead you astray. It is a big packet for them and they are too lazy to complete it. You can hit me up via PM if you have any more questions or go to the website listed in my profile. Hope this helps

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:38 am

Another thing to consider in your timeline is that your LSAT score is only good for 5 years.

wrichcirw
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Re: Military Law

Postby wrichcirw » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:37 pm

jhare wrote:Hey everyone. I made the decision to join the Army.... So instead I decided to take a 3 year enlistment in the Army.


Why not commission? Your pay would be twice what it would be as enlisted, you still get GI bill benefits, and it's much easier to explain to brass that you want to become JAG if you already have some leadership experience as an officer rather than as a grunt - you would probably qualify for more programs that would accommodate your situation. The only reason I did not go this route is because I did not have my bachelors when I enlisted...but it seems you do not have that problem.

enigmaingr
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Re: Military Law

Postby enigmaingr » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:43 pm

OIF2LAW wrote:This is the route that I went. You will incur a 3 year service obligation from the day you commission. Listen man, I cannot stress this enough - YOU NEED TO HAVE OCS IN YOUR CONTRACT SO THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERED A "COLLEGE OP."

The timeline for college ops is as follows:

1) attend basic as an E4
2) attend OCS immediately after as an E5
3) attend branch specific Officer Basic Course
4) deploy with your first unit
5) fulfill your obligation

Along the way you will qualify for a VA Loan (buy a house with no money down) and GI Bill. Not having OCS guaranteed in your contract can really delay your plans. In all reality, your unit and brigade must approve your OCS packet before you can even consider going. They may not do this until you have served a couple years honorably. Tack three more years onto this course of action. It's not the way to do it and don't let your recruiter lead you astray. It is a big packet for them and they are too lazy to complete it. You can hit me up via PM if you have any more questions or go to the website listed in my profile. Hope this helps


I agree with this as someone who enlisted with plans to become a Warrant Officer at one time. You absolutely should get OCS guarantee now. If you don't, you're at the mercy of your chain of command. Mess around and give your Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant the wrong impression and watch your OCS packet sit on a desk somewhere. You have to consider that your chain of command (at least those most relevant to you as an enlisted) are enlisted lifers who have dealt with their fair share of arrogant officers. Furthermore, your success is dependent on their approval of you; it's not like the civilian world where you can just make your own contacts and network with the necessary people.

sfalloon
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Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm

enigmaingr wrote:
OIF2LAW wrote: Listen man, I cannot stress this enough - YOU NEED TO HAVE OCS IN YOUR CONTRACT SO THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERED A "COLLEGE OP."



I agree with this as someone who enlisted with plans to become a Warrant Officer at one time. You absolutely should get OCS guarantee now. If you don't, you're at the mercy of your chain of command. Mess around and give your Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant the wrong impression and watch your OCS packet sit on a desk somewhere. You have to consider that your chain of command (at least those most relevant to you as an enlisted) are enlisted lifers who have dealt with their fair share of arrogant officers. Furthermore, your success is dependent on their approval of you; it's not like the civilian world where you can just make your own contacts and network with the necessary people.


I am assuming your admonition to have OCS in your contract - or whatever track you plan to take - applies to persons planning to become officers as well. If you are planning to move on to another division/section after a few years. As most of you know by now I'm planning to joing the military as an officer and go the FLEP route to entering JAG. I know that a recruiter cannot/ might not be able to gurantee this but after reading both posts above, I was wondering if my intentions should be stated in my contract in some form.

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:59 pm

I do not know all of the requirements for FLEP, but I understand that this is your ultimate goal. With that said, you mentioned that you had to first be an Officer before enrolling in the program. If this is the case than I highly advise you talk to your recruiter and MEPS and get enrolled as a College Op with a guaranteed school date at OCS.

jhare
Posts: 68
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Re: Military Law

Postby jhare » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:36 pm

enigmaingr wrote:
OIF2LAW wrote:This is the route that I went. You will incur a 3 year service obligation from the day you commission. Listen man, I cannot stress this enough - YOU NEED TO HAVE OCS IN YOUR CONTRACT SO THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERED A "COLLEGE OP."

The timeline for college ops is as follows:

1) attend basic as an E4
2) attend OCS immediately after as an E5
3) attend branch specific Officer Basic Course
4) deploy with your first unit
5) fulfill your obligation

Along the way you will qualify for a VA Loan (buy a house with no money down) and GI Bill. Not having OCS guaranteed in your contract can really delay your plans. In all reality, your unit and brigade must approve your OCS packet before you can even consider going. They may not do this until you have served a couple years honorably. Tack three more years onto this course of action. It's not the way to do it and don't let your recruiter lead you astray. It is a big packet for them and they are too lazy to complete it. You can hit me up via PM if you have any more questions or go to the website listed in my profile. Hope this helps


I agree with this as someone who enlisted with plans to become a Warrant Officer at one time. You absolutely should get OCS guarantee now. If you don't, you're at the mercy of your chain of command. Mess around and give your Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant the wrong impression and watch your OCS packet sit on a desk somewhere. You have to consider that your chain of command (at least those most relevant to you as an enlisted) are enlisted lifers who have dealt with their fair share of arrogant officers. Furthermore, your success is dependent on their approval of you; it's not like the civilian world where you can just make your own contacts and network with the necessary people.


I completely agree with everything you and OIF have to say, but problem is I've already enlisted. Is there any way I can change my current direction? I want college ops in my contract but didn't know about it till now. What should I do?

OIF2LAW
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:05 am

Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:07 pm

I have already told you what to do. You are not in the Military until you get on the bus and report to basic training. Check your PM for my recommended course of action.

jhare
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:06 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jhare » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:38 pm

OIF2LAW wrote:I have already told you what to do. You are not in the Military until you get on the bus and report to basic training. Check your PM for my recommended course of action.



Thanks, just got it. I'll talk to my recruiter tomorrow.

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:59 pm

FYI, the Army MOS for College-Op is 09S

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:16 am

It looks like the Air Force will be conducting interviews at the SOUTHEASTERN LAW PLACEMENT CONSORTIUM in Atlanta on August 13. This is what it states:

*************************************************

U. S. Air Force Judge Advocate General’s Corps
Hiring for: worldwide locations
Practice areas: General
Interviewing: 2Ls, 3Ls
Position: Our more than 1200 active duty judge advocates have discovered that service as a commissioned officer within The Judge Advocate General's Corps has much to offer. Our legal practice is challenging and offers immediate opportunities to litigate. In addition, joining The Judge Advocate General's Corps allows an attorney to engage in public service within an institution highly respected by the American public. Selected applicants are commissioned as first lieutenants and are promoted to captain six months after entering active duty. New judge advocates incur a four-year active duty service commitment. Training includes a five-week Commissioned Officer Training Course at Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, AL. Then, judge advocates attend a nine-week Judge Advocate Staff Officer Course at Maxwell Air Force Base. In addition, new judge advocates receive extensive training from senior attorneys and government sponsored continuing legal education (CLE).

Applicant qualifications: Accepting resumes from 2L, 3L and LLMs. Applicants must be citizens of the United States. Selection is contingent upon graduation from and ABA-approved law school and admission to practice law in the highest court of any state, territory of the United States, or federal court. All applicants must complete an Air Force medical examination and be medically qualified by the Air Force Surgeon General prior to commissioning. Individuals must be commissioned by their 35th birthday.

************************************************

Does this sound like they will be doing interviews for OYCP? Or is are these just informational interviews? I have to apply through my school's OCI/Simplicity program and can either get accepted/denied for an interview.

If they were doing actual interviews I'd try to go down there and get an interview and bring a completed packet but if it is just an informational thing I'd just try and schedule an interview on my own. My career services office is worthless in knowing this type of information. In fact, when it comes to the military, they do not know much of anything.

Also, is it alright to add an additional addendum to my application to explain some extra things where the forms do not allow me to do so?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:49 am

Rocky Estoppel wrote:It looks like the Air Force will be conducting interviews at the SOUTHEASTERN LAW PLACEMENT CONSORTIUM in Atlanta on August 13. This is what it states:

*************************************************

U. S. Air Force Judge Advocate General’s Corps
Hiring for: worldwide locations
Practice areas: General
Interviewing: 2Ls, 3Ls
Position: Our more than 1200 active duty judge advocates have discovered that service as a commissioned officer within The Judge Advocate General's Corps has much to offer. Our legal practice is challenging and offers immediate opportunities to litigate. In addition, joining The Judge Advocate General's Corps allows an attorney to engage in public service within an institution highly respected by the American public. Selected applicants are commissioned as first lieutenants and are promoted to captain six months after entering active duty. New judge advocates incur a four-year active duty service commitment. Training includes a five-week Commissioned Officer Training Course at Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, AL. Then, judge advocates attend a nine-week Judge Advocate Staff Officer Course at Maxwell Air Force Base. In addition, new judge advocates receive extensive training from senior attorneys and government sponsored continuing legal education (CLE).

Applicant qualifications: Accepting resumes from 2L, 3L and LLMs. Applicants must be citizens of the United States. Selection is contingent upon graduation from and ABA-approved law school and admission to practice law in the highest court of any state, territory of the United States, or federal court. All applicants must complete an Air Force medical examination and be medically qualified by the Air Force Surgeon General prior to commissioning. Individuals must be commissioned by their 35th birthday.

************************************************

Does this sound like they will be doing interviews for OYCP? Or is are these just informational interviews? I have to apply through my school's OCI/Simplicity program and can either get accepted/denied for an interview.

If they were doing actual interviews I'd try to go down there and get an interview and bring a completed packet but if it is just an informational thing I'd just try and schedule an interview on my own. My career services office is worthless in knowing this type of information. In fact, when it comes to the military, they do not know much of anything.

Also, is it alright to add an additional addendum to my application to explain some extra things where the forms do not allow me to do so?


It is informational. The real interviews go through a base SJA.

I would usually advise against adding documents that the instructions don't call for. The military is all about following instructions to a T. Most of the forms provide a "remarks" section in which you can add additional comments if needed. You can always call JAX and see if they have any issues with it.

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:56 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:It is informational. The real interviews go through a base SJA.


Oh well. I still might try to schedule an interview and bring a list of questions to ask in person. Since the deadline for OYCP is Feb. 1st, would scheduling an interview over winter break be alright? Just want to make sure that I'm free and it's not too late.

I'll interview for the AF summer internship much earlier though. I've been poking around the website for information on the internship. Any idea if they're going to put up information around July/August on the summer internships? Here is what the JAG website states under FAQ:

Q: Do you have an intern program?
A: The Air Force has a paid summer internship program. Each year we hire approximately 50 2Ls for an 8-10 week internship at locations throughout the United States. Please contact us directly for the program specifics and application deadlines

Of course I'll contact them for more information later but I thought they might put up more information at a later time or you might have some information about applying to the internships.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:21 pm

Rocky Estoppel wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:It is informational. The real interviews go through a base SJA.


Oh well. I still might try to schedule an interview and bring a list of questions to ask in person. Since the deadline for OYCP is Feb. 1st, would scheduling an interview over winter break be alright? Just want to make sure that I'm free and it's not too late.

I'll interview for the AF summer internship much earlier though. I've been poking around the website for information on the internship. Any idea if they're going to put up information around July/August on the summer internships? Here is what the JAG website states under FAQ:

Q: Do you have an intern program?
A: The Air Force has a paid summer internship program. Each year we hire approximately 50 2Ls for an 8-10 week internship at locations throughout the United States. Please contact us directly for the program specifics and application deadlines

Of course I'll contact them for more information later but I thought they might put up more information at a later time or you might have some information about applying to the internships.


You will have to interview for OYCP no later than 15 Jan. I always advise going earlier to give the office more time to staff the package to JAX and to give you room in case you forget something, need to redo your picture, etc.

There is no interview for the internship. Base legal has no involvement with the intern selection process at all. You apply through USAJOBS, send everything in to JAX, and it goes from there. The job posting will probably be up on USAJOBS in late August.

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:38 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:There is no interview for the internship. Base legal has no involvement with the intern selection process at all. You apply through USAJOBS, send everything in to JAX, and it goes from there. The job posting will probably be up on USAJOBS in late August.


That's good to know. I sincerely appreciate all the information you provide. It's a big help.




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