Top Law Schools

Connelly wrote:Is there any kind of mapping of # of JA's to locations in any of the branches? For instance, 35 JA's at one post, 3 at another, etc. I'm attempting to compare the likely options in the Army and Air Force.

This thread is one of the best sources of info on this subject on the internet, but it is massive. It would be great if TLS could provide us with a wiki for this that could be updated.

TenaciousD wrote:

Gamble426 wrote:Thank you Tenacious,
I don't know if this changes any of your comments but I'm planning on going to a T15 school specifically UT although SMU was also in consideration. I'm also a very serious student and plan on doing what it takes to succeed. I was also planning on studying corporate law and contracts. I'm not really wanting to go the JAG route for experience so much as I am looking to serve and to be honest the financial benefits of having the rest of my Undergraduate paid for. I would love to pick your brain a little more on this subject. My take wasn't so much as what I could offer a law firm in terms of experience but rather the leadership and work ethic developed in the service. Im not sure if it still exists and forgive me people if I offend any one here but, it use to be that being an officer in the service was considered very honorable and prestigious as well as "classy". For instance forgive the analogy but take Animal Farm for instance or the Kennedy's these are examples of very well to do people in Service to become an officer. Anymore it doesn't seem like this concept exists. In the early days of our nation one of the only ways of becoming a gentlemen was service as officer and sometimes a classical education (Alexander Hamilton). My question to you Tenacious is are there senior partners from the older generations that would look at a candidate such as that and view these qualities and do you think if I were to go to a top 15 law school and maintain competitive grades they would then consider those factors alongside of my service. I know I'm asking a lot of you and I know that every situation and every firm differs but if you could give me the best answer as a corporate lawyer using your perception of the corporate world and the corporate law firm psyche I would be very grateful. After all I have spoken with these men who maintained low 3.0s and get into second teir law schools and then do marginal work and I assure you that I'm not this person.

No problem. I've mooched so much good, free advice on this and related forums that it's a moral obligation to devote some time here. Unfortunately, though, I just don't think you're going to get the answer you want.

Caveat: YMMV here and in any other area where there are so many potential interviewers, employers, and skewed preferences. I'm simply basing my answers on personal experience, discussions with other relevant actors, and unscientific data collection.

That said, I think there's a fundamental disconnect between your goals and most JAG applicant goals: namely, you want to be a corporate lawyer. That's a perfectly respectable goal, shared by many (many!) on this Board writ large. It's the primary goal of many people on other boards as well (e.g. xoxohth, other prestige-focused sites) But it's not shared by many, if any, on this particular thread.

You are right to notice that JAG service will not overcome a school prestige/transcript deficiency: if [Insert top VAULT firm here] only takes top 10/top 15%, you could become the most decorated veteran in history, cure AIDS, and win American Idol and you'd still have a less than 1% chance of landing a gig. And I will assume, however naively, that there are quite a few people (including bigfirm partners) who do commend and respect the service and sacrifice of our armed forces servicemembers, and further recognize that they are disciplined, well-trained individuals. However, it's not school/grade or military value that makes me think your quest is Quixotic: it's that at the time you'd want to transfer from JAG to BIGLAW, you'd bring nothing relevant to the table and would likely do more damage to morale than you'd raise it. Who cares if you're a good leader if you aren't as similarly experienced as other midlevel associates? No client wants to pay $500/hr for you to read a treatise on whatever subject (and believe me, there is a treatise on every subject) just to become conversant enough to have the initial conversation with the partner (and mabye client) before delving into research or beginning to draft a document. To oversimplify, in JAG you'll learn how to use a hammer and screwdriver, but BIGLAW needs people proficient in fairway irons. The skillsets just aren't the same and by the time you're a midlevel, they aren't willing to pay you to learn on the job.

If you want to do the corporate law thing, there are innumerable places to learn more. You've already learned the basics: go to a kick-ass school, study forever, and hope that you're on the right side of the curve. If you play your cards right and have a few bounces go your way, you can find yourself with a huge salary out of law school that will cover those educational expenses. It's not guaranteed--you can see in the news all the tales of "but I thought this was a golden ticket"--where people overpaid for school and are stuck with templaw or shitlaw jobs and gobs of debt. But it is doable.

The JAG route, however, is just so different, so far outside the normal recruiting norm, and so far outside what clients want, that in a reserved, hierarchical, tradition-bound, and inefficient system like BIGLAW, I don't see a transfer as likely, and strongly suggest you not bank on it. Anything's possible, but I think it's foolish to think BIGLAW will be waiting when you go IRR. Best of luck.

sfalloon wrote:
Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?

Paichka wrote:

sfalloon wrote:
Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?

There are two paths for non-ROTC graduates to the JAGC, at least in the Army. The first is the path that I'm on, which is the Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP), and the second is the direct commissionee path.

For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement. It's a pretty sweet gig, but it's also crazy competitive. The selection rate is about 10% -- they only take 25 officers per year, out of an applicant pool of 250-300.

The second route is far more common -- the vast majority of JAG officers applied for a commission while they were in law school or after they obtained their JD. The best thing to do is to go to law school, get great grades and try to get involved in organizations where you can get some leadership experience. Then, during your 1L and 2L summers, apply for summer internships with Armed Forces Branch of your choice. When you are a 3L, you apply for a commission in the JAGC. Selection this route is also very competitive -- last year, over 2000 applies and just about 200 were accessed.

Neither path is easy, and in both you have to bring a solid application packet to the table -- grades aren't the end all be all, but they certainly help. The Army (and I'm sure the other services as well) looks for well-rounded candidates -- physically fit, loyal, dedicated to service, able to operate independently, etc.

Good luck.

Oh, and Army has a large patent and environmental practice also. We are the largest of the JAG Corps (even bigger than Navy ). Just FYI.

Paichka wrote:
For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement.

Eagle wrote:

Paichka wrote:
For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement.

That is unbelievably awesome. Do you get BAH and BAS while in law school as well? What year are you in law school?

I was only going to do JAG if I qualified for LRAP. I have about 130K of law school debt and that's with a 30K summer associate gig at a big firm, my parents helping out with my last year's tuition, and living pretty frugally.

I can't see how the experts say the average law student graduates with "only" 75K of law school debt. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Paichka wrote: It is a fantastic program. I'm paid my rank, I get BAH for DC (with dependent!) and BAS. Of course, they own me now -- I owe two years of service for every year of school they pay for. With my time prior to school, that puts me at 15.5 years before I can even think about getting out. At that point, it would be ridiculous to get out (unless we're invading Korea or something) because I'll be so close to retirement eligibility. I'm graduating without debt, but I DID make a significant trade off to do it.

sfalloon wrote:
The questions are now;

Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?

It is a fantastic program. I'm paid my rank, I get BAH for DC (with dependent!) and BAS. Of course, they own me now -- I owe two years of service for every year of school they pay for. With my time prior to school, that puts me at 15.5 years before I can even think about getting out. At that point, it would be ridiculous to get out (unless we're invading Korea or something) because I'll be so close to retirement eligibility. I'm graduating without debt, but I DID make a significant trade off to do it.

Eagle wrote:I have about 130K of law school debt and that's with a 30K summer associate gig at a big firm, my parents helping out with my last year's tuition, and living pretty frugally.

I can't see how the experts say the average law student graduates with "only" 75K of law school debt. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Undead_Ed wrote: It is definitely possible to come of out law school RIGHT NOW with 75K or less debt. I, for example, came out with 44K of law school debt. But I also chose a Third Tier school where I got in-state tuition and a partial scholarship (roughly 10K minus 2.5K for the scholarship).

I say possible right now because even my school has had pretty massive tuition hikes in the past three years. Another school I applied to, CU Boulder, was 8K a year (in-state) when I was an undergrad. When I applied, in-state was 16K a year. I just looked on their website today and in-state is now 28K a year!! I mean G-- D---.

Undead_Ed wrote:I will be higher on the pay scale because of my Time in Service. I really do not know what will happen with rank. Being a 1LT right now, I would probably just pick up CPT with my peers (like you, battle-buddy).

dgsaudio wrote:

Undead_Ed wrote:I will be higher on the pay scale because of my Time in Service. I really do not know what will happen with rank. Being a 1LT right now, I would probably just pick up CPT with my peers (like you, battle-buddy).

Do you know how active duty calculates reserve (or NG) service in time in service? I have almost 9 years in the national guard, and am wondering how it will affect pay as a JAG officer.

Paichka wrote:For what it's worth, eligibility for FLEP is limited. I believe you have to have at least 18 months of service under your belt, and no more than 5.5 years at the time you will matriculate in law school.

Undead_Ed wrote:Hey guys,

Just a heads up for those of you who got picked up in the Navy as alternates. The Denver office just called to tell me that two of their selects were disqualified for medical. They wanted to know if I was still interested so I could go down and do the rest of the application. FYI, I passed to stay Army.

If you were an alternate, this could be your ticket.

Best of Luck,
Ed

sfalloon wrote:I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news.

I had gotten all excited at the prospect of joining the Navy and then going to law school now my FLEP option is down to the AF unless I join the Army. No offense but the army really isn't my thing (besides I've got cousins who would out-rank me).

Sitting out two years in some civilian job is not exactly an option neither is going back to law school outside of the states, well unless it's China (long story).

Hmm.. does anyone know of a good law school with an advance/fast track, apart from Southwatern or Daytona (not sure I'd call Daytona a good school but that's beside the point)?
I think it's about the only way I can still join the military, give my 8 years and still retire in the time line I want to.

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP.

sfalloon wrote:I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news.

...

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP.