Military Law

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TenaciousD
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Tenacious

Postby TenaciousD » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:02 am

Gamble426 wrote:Thank you Tenacious,
I don't know if this changes any of your comments but I'm planning on going to a T15 school specifically UT although SMU was also in consideration. I'm also a very serious student and plan on doing what it takes to succeed. I was also planning on studying corporate law and contracts. I'm not really wanting to go the JAG route for experience so much as I am looking to serve and to be honest the financial benefits of having the rest of my Undergraduate paid for. I would love to pick your brain a little more on this subject. My take wasn't so much as what I could offer a law firm in terms of experience but rather the leadership and work ethic developed in the service. Im not sure if it still exists and forgive me people if I offend any one here but, it use to be that being an officer in the service was considered very honorable and prestigious as well as "classy". For instance forgive the analogy but take Animal Farm for instance or the Kennedy's these are examples of very well to do people in Service to become an officer. Anymore it doesn't seem like this concept exists. In the early days of our nation one of the only ways of becoming a gentlemen was service as officer and sometimes a classical education (Alexander Hamilton). My question to you Tenacious is are there senior partners from the older generations that would look at a candidate such as that and view these qualities and do you think if I were to go to a top 15 law school and maintain competitive grades they would then consider those factors alongside of my service. I know I'm asking a lot of you and I know that every situation and every firm differs but if you could give me the best answer as a corporate lawyer using your perception of the corporate world and the corporate law firm psyche I would be very grateful. After all I have spoken with these men who maintained low 3.0s and get into second teir law schools and then do marginal work and I assure you that I'm not this person.



No problem. I've mooched so much good, free advice on this and related forums that it's a moral obligation to devote some time here. Unfortunately, though, I just don't think you're going to get the answer you want.

Caveat: YMMV here and in any other area where there are so many potential interviewers, employers, and skewed preferences. I'm simply basing my answers on personal experience, discussions with other relevant actors, and unscientific data collection.

That said, I think there's a fundamental disconnect between your goals and most JAG applicant goals: namely, you want to be a corporate lawyer. That's a perfectly respectable goal, shared by many (many!) on this Board writ large. It's the primary goal of many people on other boards as well (e.g. xoxohth, other prestige-focused sites) But it's not shared by many, if any, on this particular thread.

You are right to notice that JAG service will not overcome a school prestige/transcript deficiency: if [Insert top VAULT firm here] only takes top 10/top 15%, you could become the most decorated veteran in history, cure AIDS, and win American Idol and you'd still have a less than 1% chance of landing a gig. And I will assume, however naively, that there are quite a few people (including bigfirm partners) who do commend and respect the service and sacrifice of our armed forces servicemembers, and further recognize that they are disciplined, well-trained individuals. However, it's not school/grade or military value that makes me think your quest is Quixotic: it's that at the time you'd want to transfer from JAG to BIGLAW, you'd bring nothing relevant to the table and would likely do more damage to morale than you'd raise it. Who cares if you're a good leader if you aren't as similarly experienced as other midlevel associates? No client wants to pay $500/hr for you to read a treatise on whatever subject (and believe me, there is a treatise on every subject) just to become conversant enough to have the initial conversation with the partner (and mabye client) before delving into research or beginning to draft a document. To oversimplify, in JAG you'll learn how to use a hammer and screwdriver, but BIGLAW needs people proficient in fairway irons. The skillsets just aren't the same and by the time you're a midlevel, they aren't willing to pay you to learn on the job.

If you want to do the corporate law thing, there are innumerable places to learn more. You've already learned the basics: go to a kick-ass school, study forever, and hope that you're on the right side of the curve. If you play your cards right and have a few bounces go your way, you can find yourself with a huge salary out of law school that will cover those educational expenses. It's not guaranteed--you can see in the news all the tales of "but I thought this was a golden ticket"--where people overpaid for school and are stuck with templaw or shitlaw jobs and gobs of debt. But it is doable.

The JAG route, however, is just so different, so far outside the normal recruiting norm, and so far outside what clients want, that in a reserved, hierarchical, tradition-bound, and inefficient system like BIGLAW, I don't see a transfer as likely, and strongly suggest you not bank on it. Anything's possible, but I think it's foolish to think BIGLAW will be waiting when you go IRR. Best of luck.

sfalloon
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:33 am

Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:13 am

I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread so far, it has been extremely helpful.

I had been contemplating whether or not JAG core in any branch would be a good decision. I spent a great deal of time trying to decide if it would be worth it and what would be a good route to take. After reading the posts, I have decided it is the way to go.

I am a graduate of St. John's University with a BS in Legal Studies and have worked on and off in big law for the last two years in serveral capasities but the one I've been trained for - Paralegal.
I attended a non- US Law School for a year and realized I can't function if I am not challenged. So, I quit and returned to the states and am now enrolled in a Diplomacy Masters programme. I am looking at takig the LSAT in December.

The questions are now;

Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?

I know you cannot answer these questions but I would like to get any information I can on the prospect of entering law school while serving as an officer. I don't care what branch the information is from and although I'd prefer first hand experience, second hand information or stuff fromt he rule book is just fine.

I am partial to the Air Force and the Navy simply because of the spcialities of both branches. I think Aviation, Patent Law and Environmental Law would be quiet intersting and I would be more likely to have the oppertunity to work in those areas in one those branches. My true love though is International Law and I'm pretty sure you can find that in any branch you go into (in some form or another).

Sorry for being long-winded.

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Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:17 am

Connelly wrote:Is there any kind of mapping of # of JA's to locations in any of the branches? For instance, 35 JA's at one post, 3 at another, etc. I'm attempting to compare the likely options in the Army and Air Force.

This thread is one of the best sources of info on this subject on the internet, but it is massive. It would be great if TLS could provide us with a wiki for this that could be updated.


For the Air Force:

As far as I know, there is no comprehensive list. You can, however, figure it out with a little Wikipedia. Obviously the bases with the highest numbers of personnel will likely have correspondingly large legal offices. As a general rule of thumb, Air Combat Command and Air Mobility Command bases are going to have larger base level legal offices (supporting the Wing) than the other Major Commands (MAJCOMs).

One thing to watch out for is the multiple layers of command we have. The smallest command element we support is the Wing, similar to an Army Brigade, headed by an O-6 or occasionally an O-7.

Wings report to Numbered Air Forces (NAFs) headed by a 2-3 Star.

NAFs fall under MAJCOMs based on what mission they preform: Combat, Mobility, Special Operations, Space, etc.

Some bases might have both a Wing and a NAF, or a Wing and a MAJCOM, on the same installation, meaning two distinct legal offices (1 office to support the Wing Commander, 1 officer to support the NAF/MAJCOM commander). So if you see a base with 10,000 + personnel, but a NAF or MAJCOM is there, the base legal office for the Wing may not be too large. An example would be Wright-Patterson, a large base, in which the base legal is medium to small sized (supporting the Wing and ASC) but has a massive amount of senior JAGs at the Material Command HQ.

There are also the odd "Centers" which are the exception to the general rule. These are sort of like NAFs but have highly specialized missions like the Nuclear Weapons Center at Kirtland (2 star) and the Warfare Center at Nellis (2 star). There are also unusual in that the base legal office supports them. For example, Nellis has 3 Wings (99th, 57th, 58th) on top of the Warfare Center, and the base legal office provides support to all. As a result, it is a large base legal office that normally would not happen in a traditional Wing-NAF setup.

So, back to your original question. Look at the base population and consider if there are several command elements. From there, you should have a good idea. Just for perspective, smaller bases (Space Command for example) might only have 4 JAGs (excluding the SJA and Deputy). Larger bases might have up to 12-15, also excluding SJA/Deputy.

sfalloon
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:33 am

Re: Tenacious

Postby sfalloon » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:35 am

TenaciousD wrote:
Gamble426 wrote:Thank you Tenacious,
I don't know if this changes any of your comments but I'm planning on going to a T15 school specifically UT although SMU was also in consideration. I'm also a very serious student and plan on doing what it takes to succeed. I was also planning on studying corporate law and contracts. I'm not really wanting to go the JAG route for experience so much as I am looking to serve and to be honest the financial benefits of having the rest of my Undergraduate paid for. I would love to pick your brain a little more on this subject. My take wasn't so much as what I could offer a law firm in terms of experience but rather the leadership and work ethic developed in the service. Im not sure if it still exists and forgive me people if I offend any one here but, it use to be that being an officer in the service was considered very honorable and prestigious as well as "classy". For instance forgive the analogy but take Animal Farm for instance or the Kennedy's these are examples of very well to do people in Service to become an officer. Anymore it doesn't seem like this concept exists. In the early days of our nation one of the only ways of becoming a gentlemen was service as officer and sometimes a classical education (Alexander Hamilton). My question to you Tenacious is are there senior partners from the older generations that would look at a candidate such as that and view these qualities and do you think if I were to go to a top 15 law school and maintain competitive grades they would then consider those factors alongside of my service. I know I'm asking a lot of you and I know that every situation and every firm differs but if you could give me the best answer as a corporate lawyer using your perception of the corporate world and the corporate law firm psyche I would be very grateful. After all I have spoken with these men who maintained low 3.0s and get into second teir law schools and then do marginal work and I assure you that I'm not this person.



No problem. I've mooched so much good, free advice on this and related forums that it's a moral obligation to devote some time here. Unfortunately, though, I just don't think you're going to get the answer you want.

Caveat: YMMV here and in any other area where there are so many potential interviewers, employers, and skewed preferences. I'm simply basing my answers on personal experience, discussions with other relevant actors, and unscientific data collection.

That said, I think there's a fundamental disconnect between your goals and most JAG applicant goals: namely, you want to be a corporate lawyer. That's a perfectly respectable goal, shared by many (many!) on this Board writ large. It's the primary goal of many people on other boards as well (e.g. xoxohth, other prestige-focused sites) But it's not shared by many, if any, on this particular thread.

You are right to notice that JAG service will not overcome a school prestige/transcript deficiency: if [Insert top VAULT firm here] only takes top 10/top 15%, you could become the most decorated veteran in history, cure AIDS, and win American Idol and you'd still have a less than 1% chance of landing a gig. And I will assume, however naively, that there are quite a few people (including bigfirm partners) who do commend and respect the service and sacrifice of our armed forces servicemembers, and further recognize that they are disciplined, well-trained individuals. However, it's not school/grade or military value that makes me think your quest is Quixotic: it's that at the time you'd want to transfer from JAG to BIGLAW, you'd bring nothing relevant to the table and would likely do more damage to morale than you'd raise it. Who cares if you're a good leader if you aren't as similarly experienced as other midlevel associates? No client wants to pay $500/hr for you to read a treatise on whatever subject (and believe me, there is a treatise on every subject) just to become conversant enough to have the initial conversation with the partner (and mabye client) before delving into research or beginning to draft a document. To oversimplify, in JAG you'll learn how to use a hammer and screwdriver, but BIGLAW needs people proficient in fairway irons. The skillsets just aren't the same and by the time you're a midlevel, they aren't willing to pay you to learn on the job.

If you want to do the corporate law thing, there are innumerable places to learn more. You've already learned the basics: go to a kick-ass school, study forever, and hope that you're on the right side of the curve. If you play your cards right and have a few bounces go your way, you can find yourself with a huge salary out of law school that will cover those educational expenses. It's not guaranteed--you can see in the news all the tales of "but I thought this was a golden ticket"--where people overpaid for school and are stuck with templaw or shitlaw jobs and gobs of debt. But it is doable.

The JAG route, however, is just so different, so far outside the normal recruiting norm, and so far outside what clients want, that in a reserved, hierarchical, tradition-bound, and inefficient system like BIGLAW, I don't see a transfer as likely, and strongly suggest you not bank on it. Anything's possible, but I think it's foolish to think BIGLAW will be waiting when you go IRR. Best of luck.


Gamble426,

I have no information regarding transfering to a Corporate Department in BigLaw. I have however, come across at least two instances where former JAG members have worked in small - medium speciality firms. At one New York firm in particular two partners and an associate were ex-JAG. The firm in point handled some speciality area in Aerospace and Trade Law if I remember correctly.

I will look through my cards and see if I can remember what firm it is and pass on the contact info I have. Maybe talking to someone who has transferred out will help, even if they work in a different field.

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Paichka
Posts: 287
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:43 am

sfalloon wrote:
Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?


There are two paths for non-ROTC graduates to the JAGC, at least in the Army. The first is the path that I'm on, which is the Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP), and the second is the direct commissionee path.

For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement. It's a pretty sweet gig, but it's also crazy competitive. The selection rate is about 10% -- they only take 25 officers per year, out of an applicant pool of 250-300.

The second route is far more common -- the vast majority of JAG officers applied for a commission while they were in law school or after they obtained their JD. The best thing to do is to go to law school, get great grades and try to get involved in organizations where you can get some leadership experience. Then, during your 1L and 2L summers, apply for summer internships with Armed Forces Branch of your choice. When you are a 3L, you apply for a commission in the JAGC. Selection this route is also very competitive -- last year, over 2000 applies and just about 200 were accessed.

Neither path is easy, and in both you have to bring a solid application packet to the table -- grades aren't the end all be all, but they certainly help. The Army (and I'm sure the other services as well) looks for well-rounded candidates -- physically fit, loyal, dedicated to service, able to operate independently, etc.

Good luck.

Oh, and Army has a large patent and environmental practice also. We are the largest of the JAG Corps (even bigger than Navy ;)). Just FYI.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:49 am

Paichka wrote:
sfalloon wrote:
Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?


There are two paths for non-ROTC graduates to the JAGC, at least in the Army. The first is the path that I'm on, which is the Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP), and the second is the direct commissionee path.

For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement. It's a pretty sweet gig, but it's also crazy competitive. The selection rate is about 10% -- they only take 25 officers per year, out of an applicant pool of 250-300.

The second route is far more common -- the vast majority of JAG officers applied for a commission while they were in law school or after they obtained their JD. The best thing to do is to go to law school, get great grades and try to get involved in organizations where you can get some leadership experience. Then, during your 1L and 2L summers, apply for summer internships with Armed Forces Branch of your choice. When you are a 3L, you apply for a commission in the JAGC. Selection this route is also very competitive -- last year, over 2000 applies and just about 200 were accessed.

Neither path is easy, and in both you have to bring a solid application packet to the table -- grades aren't the end all be all, but they certainly help. The Army (and I'm sure the other services as well) looks for well-rounded candidates -- physically fit, loyal, dedicated to service, able to operate independently, etc.

Good luck.

Oh, and Army has a large patent and environmental practice also. We are the largest of the JAG Corps (even bigger than Navy ;)). Just FYI.


The Air Force is essentially the same. Except slightly better than the Army :D

FLEP and ELP is how active duty officers in other career fields transition to JAG. We also have a 2 year and 1 year ROTC program for law students (GLP and OYCP respectively). Like the Army, most of our JAGs are through the Direct Appointment Program, which officially picks you up once you get your law license.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:17 pm

Paichka wrote:
For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement.


That is unbelievably awesome. Do you get BAH and BAS while in law school as well? What year are you in law school?

I was only going to do JAG if I qualified for LRAP. I have about 130K of law school debt and that's with a 30K summer associate gig at a big firm, my parents helping out with my last year's tuition, and living pretty frugally.

I can't see how the experts say the average law student graduates with "only" 75K of law school debt. It just doesn't make sense to me.

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:43 pm

Eagle wrote:
Paichka wrote:
For me, I was an officer in the Army FIRST, and then I applied for FLEP. I'm now attending law school fully funded by the Army, as well as getting paid at my rank (captain) and accruing time in service for retirement.


That is unbelievably awesome. Do you get BAH and BAS while in law school as well? What year are you in law school?

I was only going to do JAG if I qualified for LRAP. I have about 130K of law school debt and that's with a 30K summer associate gig at a big firm, my parents helping out with my last year's tuition, and living pretty frugally.

I can't see how the experts say the average law student graduates with "only" 75K of law school debt. It just doesn't make sense to me.


It is a fantastic program. I'm paid my rank, I get BAH for DC (with dependent!) and BAS. Of course, they own me now -- I owe two years of service for every year of school they pay for. With my time prior to school, that puts me at 15.5 years before I can even think about getting out. At that point, it would be ridiculous to get out (unless we're invading Korea or something) because I'll be so close to retirement eligibility. I'm graduating without debt, but I DID make a significant trade off to do it.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Paichka wrote: It is a fantastic program. I'm paid my rank, I get BAH for DC (with dependent!) and BAS. Of course, they own me now -- I owe two years of service for every year of school they pay for. With my time prior to school, that puts me at 15.5 years before I can even think about getting out. At that point, it would be ridiculous to get out (unless we're invading Korea or something) because I'll be so close to retirement eligibility. I'm graduating without debt, but I DID make a significant trade off to do it.


Sounds like a good deal to me. You get the prestige and responsibility of being a military officer along with fantastic job stability and benefits for your family. And the opportunity to pursue a second career if you so desire (or hit the lake with the fishing pole, six pack of beer and fat pension check)...

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

sfalloon wrote:
The questions are now;

Do I go in as an officer then try to get leave to attend law school?
Do I, apply for the entry after my first year of law school, or later in the JD?



If you join the military as a "College-Op," you will go through basic as an E-4, Officer Candidate School as an E-5, and commission as a Cherry (2LT). This is advantageous because you will be 100% eligible for the post-911 GI Bill. Your talking a 3 year contract from the day you commission though. This is the route I went, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. Shorter contract plus all of the VA perks. I am now heading to LS with the GI Bill and a condo in Hawaii which I purchased with a VA Loan.

You can get more information on the GI Bill here --LinkRemoved--

Hope this helps. PM me if you have any additional questions.

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:00 pm

It is a fantastic program. I'm paid my rank, I get BAH for DC (with dependent!) and BAS. Of course, they own me now -- I owe two years of service for every year of school they pay for. With my time prior to school, that puts me at 15.5 years before I can even think about getting out. At that point, it would be ridiculous to get out (unless we're invading Korea or something) because I'll be so close to retirement eligibility. I'm graduating without debt, but I DID make a significant trade off to do it.


FLEP is great if you are CERTAIN you are going to stay in for 20. Congrats on your selection to the program.

sfalloon
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Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:20 pm

Your responces have given me a lot to think about. One of the biggest factors which would influence the route I take is lenght of service required. I want to retire before I turn 45 (it would be even better if I could retire at 36 -38). Given that I'm 25 - considering going in at 26 -27 - that would give me a maximum of 18 years of service, at best.

So I was wondering - forgive me if this was answered before - how long would you have to serve before you would be eligible for FELP?

Based on Paichka's post I think it might be 3 years, but I could be wrong. Let me know.
If I opt to do the FELP/ ELP route I think intelligence would be a good place to opt for, especially since I am pursuing a MA in Diplomacy at the moment. I would do my best to "pick-up" a useful language before going in as well.

Thanks again for all your help.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:26 pm

Eagle wrote:I have about 130K of law school debt and that's with a 30K summer associate gig at a big firm, my parents helping out with my last year's tuition, and living pretty frugally.

I can't see how the experts say the average law student graduates with "only" 75K of law school debt. It just doesn't make sense to me.


It is definitely possible to come of out law school RIGHT NOW with 75K or less debt. I, for example, came out with 44K of law school debt. But I also chose a Third Tier school where I got in-state tuition and a partial scholarship (roughly 10K minus 2.5K for the scholarship).

I say possible right now because even my school has had pretty massive tuition hikes in the past three years. Another school I applied to, CU Boulder, was 8K a year (in-state) when I was an undergrad. When I applied, in-state was 16K a year. I just looked on their website today and in-state is now 28K a year!! I mean G-- D---.

For you guys looking for a way to pay for this debacle in the future, you might consider joining the Army Reserve or National Guard before you go to law school. I understand that the Guard pays 100% tuition at state schools while you are serving. The Army Reserve is capped at 4.5K per year. Also, having the prior service on your JAG application can't hurt your chances. However, there is as strong possibility that you could get deployed while you are in school.

Trying for the FLEP program necessitates that you go full time Army as an officer (a good thing of course) on the hope that you will get selected. When I was doing my ROTC accessions packet, I thought long and hard about going for FLEP. Ulimately, I wasn't willing to take the chance that I wouldn't be selected or would have to wait. Instead, I went into the Army Reserve. Like others have said, I wouldn't change a thing.

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Eagle
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:47 pm

Undead_Ed wrote: It is definitely possible to come of out law school RIGHT NOW with 75K or less debt. I, for example, came out with 44K of law school debt. But I also chose a Third Tier school where I got in-state tuition and a partial scholarship (roughly 10K minus 2.5K for the scholarship).

I say possible right now because even my school has had pretty massive tuition hikes in the past three years. Another school I applied to, CU Boulder, was 8K a year (in-state) when I was an undergrad. When I applied, in-state was 16K a year. I just looked on their website today and in-state is now 28K a year!! I mean G-- D---.


Only 44K in debt is phenomenal. Will you start at a higher rank and salary in active duty because you did reserve?

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:14 pm

I will be higher on the pay scale because of my Time in Service. I really do not know what will happen with rank. Being a 1LT right now, I would probably just pick up CPT with my peers (like you, battle-buddy). :D

OIF2LAW
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Re: Military Law

Postby OIF2LAW » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:22 am

I will be leaving the Army as a CPT next month to attend law school. My GI Bill covers 100% of my tuition. Yes, that means I will graduate with ZERO debt.

Additionally, I signed up for two years stabilization (guaranteed not to deploy) in the Army Reserves. After that, it is entirely up to me which career path I pursue. I could always go back on active duty or just bid farewell with the fondest of memories. What is most important is that the decision is MINE to make. I preach to all of my Soldiers that the best path in the military is the one that gives you the most amount of options (in other words, least amount of service time obligations). You can always tack on more years, but as for shaving off time....

Do a 12-15 month deployment and see how you feel. just my .02 cents

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:00 am

For what it's worth, eligibility for FLEP is limited. I believe you have to have at least 18 months of service under your belt, and no more than 5.5 years at the time you will matriculate in law school.

dgsaudio
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Re: Military Law

Postby dgsaudio » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:00 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:I will be higher on the pay scale because of my Time in Service. I really do not know what will happen with rank. Being a 1LT right now, I would probably just pick up CPT with my peers (like you, battle-buddy). :D


Do you know how active duty calculates reserve (or NG) service in time in service? I have almost 9 years in the national guard, and am wondering how it will affect pay as a JAG officer.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:20 pm

Hey guys,

Just a heads up for those of you who got picked up in the Navy as alternates. The Denver office just called to tell me that two of their selects were disqualified for medical. They wanted to know if I was still interested so I could go down and do the rest of the application. FYI, I passed to stay Army.

If you were an alternate, this could be your ticket.

Best of Luck,
Ed

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:29 pm

dgsaudio wrote:
Undead_Ed wrote:I will be higher on the pay scale because of my Time in Service. I really do not know what will happen with rank. Being a 1LT right now, I would probably just pick up CPT with my peers (like you, battle-buddy). :D


Do you know how active duty calculates reserve (or NG) service in time in service? I have almost 9 years in the national guard, and am wondering how it will affect pay as a JAG officer.


Time in service is time in service. You will get those 9 years for pay. But that time is going to be prorated when it comes to retirement. Your 9 years will be rolled into a block of active duty time: 6 Months training + 24 BTAs/Yr + 14 Days AT/Yr = Appx. 1.5 Years. Better than nothing, bro.

sfalloon
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Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:32 pm

Paichka wrote:For what it's worth, eligibility for FLEP is limited. I believe you have to have at least 18 months of service under your belt, and no more than 5.5 years at the time you will matriculate in law school.


Thank you.

I am beginning to like the FLEP option more. I was considering doing 2 years (if I go in) before applying for FELP. Considering that officers generally serve 8 years, 4 active and 4 reserve then I would have to serve about 11 years.

2 years prior + 3 (2) [for all my time in law school + 3 to complete my eight year requirement = 11.

My math might be off but I figure if I do that then I can be out bt the time I'm 37 - 38, which works out well for me.

I think the 2 years of service will give me a chance to make sure that law is exactly what I want to do. Besides, the two years will give me a chance to finish some other unfinish courses.

I guess the biggest the decision now is to figure out if I should go Navy or Air Force. Leaning towards the Navy at the moment because of the possible posts.

Thanks a million to all of you.

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Eagle
Posts: 66
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Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:45 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:Hey guys,

Just a heads up for those of you who got picked up in the Navy as alternates. The Denver office just called to tell me that two of their selects were disqualified for medical. They wanted to know if I was still interested so I could go down and do the rest of the application. FYI, I passed to stay Army.

If you were an alternate, this could be your ticket.

Best of Luck,
Ed


That's a pretty big honor. You made the right choice though. :D

Anyone know the biggest reasons for being medically disqualified? Is the process the same for all of the branches? Don't you just show up to MEPS and get a run of the mill physical and blood test to check for illegal drug use? That would suck to get into Navy JAG (under 10% acceptance rate) and then get medically disqualified.

sfalloon
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:33 am

Re: Military Law

Postby sfalloon » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:39 pm

I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news. :(

I had gotten all excited at the prospect of joining the Navy and then going to law school now my FLEP option is down to the AF unless I join the Army. No offense but the army really isn't my thing (besides I've got cousins who would out-rank me).

Sitting out two years in some civilian job is not exactly an option neither is going back to law school outside of the states, well unless it's China (long story).

Hmm.. does anyone know of a good law school with an advance/fast track, apart from Southwatern or Daytona (not sure I'd call Daytona a good school but that's beside the point)?
I think it's about the only way I can still join the military, give my 8 years and still retire in the time line I want to.

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP. :(

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Eagle
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:10 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Eagle » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:32 pm

sfalloon wrote:I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news. :(

I had gotten all excited at the prospect of joining the Navy and then going to law school now my FLEP option is down to the AF unless I join the Army. No offense but the army really isn't my thing (besides I've got cousins who would out-rank me).

Sitting out two years in some civilian job is not exactly an option neither is going back to law school outside of the states, well unless it's China (long story).

Hmm.. does anyone know of a good law school with an advance/fast track, apart from Southwatern or Daytona (not sure I'd call Daytona a good school but that's beside the point)?
I think it's about the only way I can still join the military, give my 8 years and still retire in the time line I want to.

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP. :(


Don't freak out. It's a pretty bold thing to have your life planned out 11 years in advance. My best advice is to keep your options open. Going to a decent law school would be a good start. Southwestern's two year SCALE program is overrated in my opinion. If you go there, you may get lucky and score a JAG offer. But if you don't, your job options are pretty limited. Lawyers in general, especially those in California, have big egos and are prestige-whores. A degree from Southwestern is not going to bode that well in the private sector. Most of the recent grads I know that went there do not have jobs and are strapped with 6 figures of law school debt. Southwestern grads usually do pretty well in the public sector, but right now the state is broke and the DA's/PD's office is not hiring. Unless you get a fantastic scholarship from a lower-ranked law school or are independently wealthy, a degree from a low-ranked law school (especially in California) is a very risky proposition.

Lastly, if your goal is to serve in the military for 11 years and get a JD with no law school debt, you can still do that with Navy JAG. A fairly new law will forgive all federal loans after ten years of service in the public sector. Service in the military qualifies and so you could have all your law school debt forgiven after ten years of service in the Navy JAG. That said, remember the selection rate for Navy JAG is currently under 10% so it's a good idea to keep your options open. Going to a good law school will do just that.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:10 am

sfalloon wrote:I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news. :(

...

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP. :(

This info would really surprise the 3L USN FLEP-er with me here and the handful of friends who have been picked up over the years-- one who is now the JAG on an aircraft carrier.

Did you maybe mean SLRP (student loan repayment plan)? IIRC, Navy doesn't pay back loans if you've already sunk the money before joining.




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