Military Law

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snakemongler84
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Re: Military Law

Postby snakemongler84 » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:04 pm

screech wrote:I noticed they look at LSAT percentile/score. What score does one need to be a JAG?


To rephrase, the score one needs to be a JAG for at least one branch is 150. It is the bare minimum in order to be considered.

Now, as you may have ascertained from this long thread, there is much more that goes into being selected than just your LSAT, or even your GPA. Many have noted the importance of the "whole person" mentality, as well as leadership ability. Also, coursework and extracurriculars in Advocacy (moot court/mock trial) seem to stand out, according to people that have been through the selection process.

Nothing is guaranteed.

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savagedm
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Re: Military Law

Postby savagedm » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:06 pm

snakemongler84 wrote:
screech wrote:I noticed they look at LSAT percentile/score. What score does one need to be a JAG?


To rephrase, the score one needs to be a JAG for at least one branch is 150. It is the bare minimum in order to be considered.

Now, as you may have ascertained from this long thread, there is much more that goes into being selected than just your LSAT, or even your GPA. Many have noted the importance of the "whole person" mentality, as well as leadership ability. Also, coursework and extracurriculars in Advocacy (moot court/mock trial) seem to stand out, according to people that have been through the selection process.

Nothing is guaranteed.



Very true, I intend to do all of that when I start in the Fall. I have previous experience winning the NMUN competition and winning a couple other misc. awards with MUN and my Fraternity. Hopefully the trend can continue in law school :)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:26 pm

I just graduated from Officer Training School on Friday. While obviously it is watered down compared to Marine or Army OCS, it ended up being far more challenging than I (and most of my peers) expected. Like most hard things, I'm very glad that I did it now that it is over, but good lord did it suck.

I'll start at the JAG School (JASOC) tomorrow which I am very much looking forward to.

If any of you are OTS bound or interested in learning more, check out the COT and JAG boards on the AirForceOTS forums. There are several posters from my class that put up their tips/tricks/lessons learned regarding OTS.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:18 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:I just graduated from Officer Training School on Friday. While obviously it is watered down compared to Marine or Army OCS, it ended up being far more challenging than I (and most of my peers) expected. Like most hard things, I'm very glad that I did it now that it is over, but good lord did it suck.

I'll start at the JAG School (JASOC) tomorrow which I am very much looking forward to.

If any of you are OTS bound or interested in learning more, check out the COT and JAG boards on the AirForceOTS forums. There are several posters from my class that put up their tips/tricks/lessons learned regarding OTS.


Congrats man!!

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savagedm
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Re: Military Law

Postby savagedm » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:54 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:I just graduated from Officer Training School on Friday. While obviously it is watered down compared to Marine or Army OCS, it ended up being far more challenging than I (and most of my peers) expected. Like most hard things, I'm very glad that I did it now that it is over, but good lord did it suck.

I'll start at the JAG School (JASOC) tomorrow which I am very much looking forward to.

If any of you are OTS bound or interested in learning more, check out the COT and JAG boards on the AirForceOTS forums. There are several posters from my class that put up their tips/tricks/lessons learned regarding OTS.



Grats on graduating! I am still wondering if I should postpone law school a few years and enlist out of college then get the military to pay the way through law school... is it really worth it to wait?

Is it really worth it to be in the military?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:18 pm

I am still wondering if I should postpone law school a few years and enlist out of college then get the military to pay the way through law school... is it really worth it to wait?


This is a decision only you can make. If you expect to want to make it a military career, then it is a great opportunity. On the Navy side, you'll have to be a warfare qualified officer (ship-driver, aviator, etc.) for a few years before you're even eligible to apply for the highly selective program (it won't be guaranteed). Assuming you get accepted, you then go to law school for three years (paid plus your active duty salary), but you'll owe another 6 years or so following graduation. By this point, you'll have 12 years+ of service.

If you aren't ready to make that commitment of time, go to law school then apply for direct accession into JAG. There are plenty of posts earlier in this thread (or search JAG for others) that discuss this process in some detail.

On a technical note: if you do decide to join before law school, don't go to your recruiter and tell him/her you want to "enlist". You'll need to get your commission as an officer to be eligible for the funded law program (at least in the Navy). I

Is it really worth it to be in the military?

I think so :-)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:22 pm

savagedm wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:I just graduated from Officer Training School on Friday. While obviously it is watered down compared to Marine or Army OCS, it ended up being far more challenging than I (and most of my peers) expected. Like most hard things, I'm very glad that I did it now that it is over, but good lord did it suck.

I'll start at the JAG School (JASOC) tomorrow which I am very much looking forward to.

If any of you are OTS bound or interested in learning more, check out the COT and JAG boards on the AirForceOTS forums. There are several posters from my class that put up their tips/tricks/lessons learned regarding OTS.



Grats on graduating! I am still wondering if I should postpone law school a few years and enlist out of college then get the military to pay the way through law school... is it really worth it to wait?

Is it really worth it to be in the military?


Let me second Rotor in noting to be careful using the word "enlist". If you intend to be a commissioned officer, you are not enlisting into anything. This is misused constantly and will annoy anyone with military experience.

Please don't assume that you can just "get the military to pay the way through law school." For the AF, it is the Funded Legal Education Program (FLEP). Something like 4-8 Captains get picked up for it every year. That's it. It is extremely competitive. Note that they are all generally Captains, 0-3s, and have 3-4 years time in service on top of making it through a commissioning source (Academy, ROTC, OTS).

Also be careful with the base assumption that you will be picked up by any service's JAG. AF JAG averages under a 10% selection rate for direct appointments. The Navy only takes a handful of direct commissions and is also very very selective. All branches are going to become even more selective as the economy worsens and more grads turn their eyes on the uniformed services as a career path. I am at JASOC right now and I am truly impressed with how incredibly bright and capable all of my classmates are.

Not to be a Debbie Downer or anything, I just thought some perspective can be important.

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A'nold
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Re: Military Law

Postby A'nold » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:27 pm

Curious- is there a way to become a JAG, have your UG debt paid for by the educational loan repayment stuff, then use your lower (because of the tax benefits you do not have to claim) salary to qualify for the Federal LRAP?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:53 pm

A'nold wrote:Curious- is there a way to become a JAG, have your UG debt paid for by the educational loan repayment stuff, then use your lower (because of the tax benefits you do not have to claim) salary to qualify for the Federal LRAP?

I don't know of any provision that would keep you from joining under SLRP (student loan repayment plan) then benefitting from LRAP.

However, SLRP will incur a service commitment during which you will probably get promotions, pay raises and retention bonuses that will outstrip the LRAP limits. I didn't do the math, but I'm guessing that as a Navy Lieutenant/Army-AF Captain would do it).

This is a complex question. You may want to talk to your FINAID folks and compare earning limits to pay tables that you can find online.

Hope it works for you.

snakemongler84
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Re: Military Law

Postby snakemongler84 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:59 pm

Air Force, Navy, and to a lesser extent Army JAG programs have all been discussed in-depth in this thread. Can anyone provide more insight into the USMC program? I know all of the "more demanding" training reqs and such (OCS-> TBS->Navy Justice, etc), but I am interested in finding out more about how their deployments, responsibilities, and post-military career prospects differ from the other branches.

Yesterday I learned from a recruiter that you can begin the application process for the USMC as a 0L with a 150+ LSAT. It seemed kind of crazy to me that you could be guaranteed a job as a lawyer without consideration of your 1L grades, but at the same time it struck me as worth looking into. I'm a 160/3.32 eyeing mostly T2/T3 schools with decent scholarships, and I was planning on applying for the unpaid Navy internship my 1L summer anyway - and going from there.

My wife and I would like to live near the coasts (hence Navy or Marines) and will be looking to have kids 3Lish or after. Location/Length of deployments is an issue, and I am wondering if anything has info in this regard for the USMC beyond mostly speculation. I am 24 and in good shape, and I worked in law enforcement for a couple years (which gave me a taste of what the OCS/TBS process will entail). As mentioned above, any add'l info on typical areas of practice and career prospects is welcome.

Lastly, thanks again for this thread. You all seem like good people, and the type that I'd like to work with someday.

snakemongler84
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Re: Military Law

Postby snakemongler84 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:33 pm

Bump.

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afjag09
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Re: Military Law

Postby afjag09 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:47 pm

PB (or anyone else who might know), can you explain how LRAP works? I know it is dependent upon your school, but is there a general timeline for the application process?

Also, I will be entering my 1L year next fall directly from undergrad and four years of AFROTC - I'll be commissioning as a 2LT in May. I just received my Educational Delay to attend school, and so will effectively be cut off from the military for the next three years. Do you know any current JAGs who went this route? If so, in what ways did they stay involved with the Air Force, if at all?

Finally, I've been thinking a lot of my career choices lately. I have the chance to attend a T14 (probably Top 6) at sticker price or a T20 with a nice, but far from full-tuition scholarship. I am about 95% sure I'll do my 4 year commitment and get out, but coming from an Air Force family, I know how uncertain that decision can be when it's so far in the future. Can you give any insight in regards to how much one's school matters if he/she decides to enter the private sector after the military?

Thanks!

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:49 pm

Snake: I do not know much, if anything, about how USMC JAG accessions works. I know they are rather atypical in terms of making JAGs go through OCS and TBS just like any other officer. I do not know any Marine JAGs I could refer you to, either in real life or on any forum, so you may have to go through an official recruiter for more info.

AFJAG09: Congrats on the commission! LRAP for my school requires the application be turned in April of the year, with funds being dispersed a month or two later. The application is not too intensive, mostly just documenting income, loans, and the like. I do not know any right now that is an ELP-er (extended leave program) but I will ask around my JASOC class in the next few days and see if I can find someone.

In terms of what school you should attend, I think it will all turn on what you hope to do in the private sector. If you are gunning for something like White Collar work at a big firm or AUSA in a major city, having a T14 JD might be a huge asset. Then again, who knows. A lot will depend on what you end up focusing on in the JAG Corps (civil litigation, military justice, labor, etc) and will likely transition into doing as a civilian. Out of maybe 75 lawyers in my JASOC class, there are only 3 (maybe 4) with T14 degrees. Same reflection in terms of the Field Grades that are the instructors at JASOC.
As you note, it is way into the future with a ton of variables still in play. If you can handle the loan payments on an 0-2/0-3 salary, the biggest name school is the most risk-adverse decision.

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Yointer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yointer » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:09 am

snakemongler84 wrote:Air Force, Navy, and to a lesser extent Army JAG programs have all been discussed in-depth in this thread. Can anyone provide more insight into the USMC program? I know all of the "more demanding" training reqs and such (OCS-> TBS->Navy Justice, etc), but I am interested in finding out more about how their deployments, responsibilities, and post-military career prospects differ from the other branches.

Yesterday I learned from a recruiter that you can begin the application process for the USMC as a 0L with a 150+ LSAT. It seemed kind of crazy to me that you could be guaranteed a job as a lawyer without consideration of your 1L grades, but at the same time it struck me as worth looking into. I'm a 160/3.32 eyeing mostly T2/T3 schools with decent scholarships, and I was planning on applying for the unpaid Navy internship my 1L summer anyway - and going from there.

My wife and I would like to live near the coasts (hence Navy or Marines) and will be looking to have kids 3Lish or after. Location/Length of deployments is an issue, and I am wondering if anything has info in this regard for the USMC beyond mostly speculation. I am 24 and in good shape, and I worked in law enforcement for a couple years (which gave me a taste of what the OCS/TBS process will entail). As mentioned above, any add'l info on typical areas of practice and career prospects is welcome.

Lastly, thanks again for this thread. You all seem like good people, and the type that I'd like to work with someday.


I don't know much about the Marine program myself, but the helpful folks at http://www.marineocs.com can help you out. There are several frequent posters that are either law students who have already been accepted or recent law school graduates on their first tour. Definitely a good option if you're looking to put the "military" in "military law".

snakemongler84
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Re: Military Law

Postby snakemongler84 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:24 pm

Thanks a lot Yointer. Fortunately, I found that link over the weekend and man you are right - tons of information there. I'll be doing much more research in the next couple weeks, and I may even set up a meeting with the OSO I spoke to. Anyway, I recommend that site to anyone with similar questions - thanks again.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:41 am

I'm interviewing today with ARMY JAG for a 1L internship at UVA's OGI, so I'll post up later on how it goes, the types of questions they ask, etc.

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RonSantoRules
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Re: Military Law

Postby RonSantoRules » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:54 pm

J-Rod wrote:I'm interviewing today with ARMY JAG for a 1L internship at UVA's OGI, so I'll post up later on how it goes, the types of questions they ask, etc.


J-Rod, hope it went well for you. I've got an interview with the ARMY JAG tomorrow. Any tips you want to pass along?

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A'nold
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Re: Military Law

Postby A'nold » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:56 pm

Rotor wrote:
A'nold wrote:Curious- is there a way to become a JAG, have your UG debt paid for by the educational loan repayment stuff, then use your lower (because of the tax benefits you do not have to claim) salary to qualify for the Federal LRAP?

I don't know of any provision that would keep you from joining under SLRP (student loan repayment plan) then benefitting from LRAP.

However, SLRP will incur a service commitment during which you will probably get promotions, pay raises and retention bonuses that will outstrip the LRAP limits. I didn't do the math, but I'm guessing that as a Navy Lieutenant/Army-AF Captain would do it).

This is a complex question. You may want to talk to your FINAID folks and compare earning limits to pay tables that you can find online.

Hope it works for you.


Thanks rotor, you're the pimp as usual. 8)

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:27 pm

RonSantoRules wrote:
J-Rod wrote:I'm interviewing today with ARMY JAG for a 1L internship at UVA's OGI, so I'll post up later on how it goes, the types of questions they ask, etc.


J-Rod, hope it went well for you. I've got an interview with the ARMY JAG tomorrow. Any tips you want to pass along?



My interview went really well I think. I interviewed with Captain Babin. He was very nice. He asked a lot of specific questions, about leadership, strengths and weaknesses, why I want the internship, asked me to talk about the law, etc. It was a pretty intense interview question wise, but it had a relaxed feeling.

The person you interview with doesn't make the hiring decisions. They write a report on you and send it to the board in DC. So make sure to get your application into DC by March 1. I have to send mine out today, gonna overnight it.

Advice: Just be yourself, and be honest. They are obviously looking for certain things, but they'll see through it if you're just putting up a front.

GOOD LUCK!!

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:24 pm

So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:40 pm

J-Rod wrote:So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?


Hell yeah! Congrats! You are well on your way.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:46 pm

J-Rod wrote:So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?

Congrats JRod!

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groundhog
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Re: Military Law

Postby groundhog » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:27 pm

J-Rod wrote:So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?


congrats j-rod. i also got the 1L internship. i was checking the messageboards to try to get some more info before i decide what locations to ask for.
you're accepting the offer i presume? any location preferences?

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A'nold
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Re: Military Law

Postby A'nold » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:43 pm

groundhog wrote:
J-Rod wrote:So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?


congrats j-rod. i also got the 1L internship. i was checking the messageboards to try to get some more info before i decide what locations to ask for.
you're accepting the offer i presume? any location preferences?


Does the military pay for your travel?

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groundhog
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Re: Military Law

Postby groundhog » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:31 pm

A'nold wrote:
groundhog wrote:
J-Rod wrote:So, I heard from JAG and got a spot in this summer's 1L internship program! Anyone else on TLS get an offer?


congrats j-rod. i also got the 1L internship. i was checking the messageboards to try to get some more info before i decide what locations to ask for.
you're accepting the offer i presume? any location preferences?


Does the military pay for your travel?



No, unfortunately (with the Army JAG at least) I have to pay for travel and housing. I'm going to try to find a cheap summer sublet, and live somewhat spartan.




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