Military Law Forum

[DaveCA]

Any others hear back???

Nope. I seem to be unable to convince my phone to ring, despite my pleas.

[slurgan]

So, had a friend whose SJA was out-of-office today. He got back to my friend at 4:30 EST today. So, maybe some hope remains!

[Doc Review Lifer]

Phone didn't ring once yesterday -- not even my boss called! Well, on to the next board.

Congrats to all those who made it!

[LessThanLiz]

How responsive does JAG - particularly Navy JAG - seem to be to "focuses" in law school? I've been concentrating primarily on estate planning and will be in our low income tax payer clinic, as well as doing some pro bono wills, proxies, and tax work this upcoming summer.

I figured that this stuff (well, except for navigating the estate tax, heh) would be practically useful, though I've noticed in this thread the emphasis seems to be on general litigation. I obviously understand the importance of that but I'd like to know if my own focus will function as a boon, a bane, or something more neutral.

My school is also incredibly big on national security issues and I'm considering auditing courses such as Prosecuting Terrorists, National Security, Cyberterrorism, and so forth.

Thanks again.

(I searched the forums and skimmed this thread but it was getting a little tedious, so my bad if this has been answered. Repeatedly.)

[QueueToo]

How responsive does JAG - particularly Navy JAG - seem to be to "focuses" in law school? I've been concentrating primarily on estate planning and will be in our low income tax payer clinic, as well as doing some pro bono wills, proxies, and tax work this upcoming summer.

I figured that this stuff (well, except for navigating the estate tax, heh) would be practically useful, though I've noticed in this thread the emphasis seems to be on general litigation. I obviously understand the importance of that but I'd like to know if my own focus will function as a boon, a bane, or something more neutral.

My school is also incredibly big on national security issues and I'm considering auditing courses such as Prosecuting Terrorists, National Security, Cyberterrorism, and so forth.

Thanks again.

(I searched the forums and skimmed this thread but it was getting a little tedious, so my bad if this has been answered. Repeatedly.)

If I understand things right, the first tour for any Navy JAG is pretty much the same: a round in legal assistance, a round on the government side of courts martial and a round on the defense side of courts martial. I think it's after that—when JAGs have reupped their contract—that any kind of specialization would come into play. Yours, for example, seems well-suited for the Legal Services Office where they do legal assistance for sailors and their families, including wills, D.P.A.s and tax stuff.

As far as those courses you mentioned I think if you're interested then you should take them but don't take them just because you're (hoping to be) going JAG. I realized that I kind of wrote the above thinking you had been professionally recommended out of the last set of boards and are trying to set up your last year. If that's the case then take whatever you have an interest in and the Navy will—I think—put it to good use at some point.

If, however, you are trying to set your schedule up to be an attractive JAG candidate, I don't know what to tell you. The moot court/mock trial stuff is important as is, I believe, demonstration of strong legal writing skills (read: a journal) are good things. Other than that, I don't know what else to say. I do buy the whole person application process but hitting the above should hopefully not represent a burden.

Hopefully this hasn't been wholly useless. . . .

[Doc Review Lifer]

Any other USAF non-selects thinking about applying to the Reserves whilst continuing AD applications?

[DaveCA]

Any other USAF non-selects thinking about applying to the Reserves whilst continuing AD applications?

The only reserves program I found only accepts applications from licensed attorneys, but yes, I'll be applying presuming I do in fact pass the bar.

[acw1213]

.

[xerxes]

Whether to stay or go depends on specifics IMO. I don't think military cares much about school quality, but others do. I'd transfer probably as you can always keep current accomplishments on resume.

[xerxes]

Two questions:

1. Do you have to pass a PRT before you commission, or is it during ODS/OCS?

2. What is the starting salary? 0-2 with 0 years of experience? Or do they count law school as experience?

[bjack347]

Two questions:

1. Do you have to pass a PRT before you commission, or is it during ODS/OCS?

2. What is the starting salary? 0-2 with 0 years of experience? Or do they count law school as experience?

If you are asking about Army JAG, you will have to pass a PT test before you can graduate from JAOBC (which is sort of the JAG version of OCS) during which you will have several opportunities (at least three according to 1LT Harper and his JAOBC blog on armystrongstories.com). I'm not 100% on this but I don't believe you'll take a PT test before then. Maybe another member of this forum can weigh in on that.

Starting salary for a direct commission (O-2 with two years or less time in) Army JAG is $38,000 a year (taxable) but there's still BAH (varies depending on location but its typically around $1,000 a month, non-taxable), BAS ($223 a month, non-taxable), and there's the health coverage. Law school only counts towards pay if you were in ROTC and receive your JAG commission as an ed delay active duty selection. This is all on the Army JAG Corps site (jagcnet.army.mil) in the Frequently Asked Questions pdf found under the Join JAG portal.

[abogadesq]

I'm an incoming student at University of Florida law and I intend on applying to the Air Force GLP JAG program. My concern is, if I have to apply by January of my first year in law school as the Air Force website says, there is very little time for me to get any extracurriculars done during law school to put on my resume, no? Fortunately, I have done things before law school that I can add on my resume (homeless and environmental work), but first year students aren't allowed most extracurriculars. I plan on working with the Military Law student organization, and more out-of-school charity work, but my school restricts 1L from most in-school activities to - according to my adviser - prevent 1L students from blowing out. That being said, I'm afraid my halfway 1L resume will look pretty plain.

[ashkenazy]

mmartinneal -

I am currently a GLP cadet, and I had the same worry. You're just going to have to bank on what you've done in the past. You'll neither have the chance to show law school extra-curricular involvement nor any law school oral advocacy skills. Frankly, you may not even have your first semester grades when you interview with the SJA. You'll have to send those in later. Good luck!

[Paichka]

Two questions:

1. Do you have to pass a PRT before you commission, or is it during ODS/OCS?

2. What is the starting salary? 0-2 with 0 years of experience? Or do they count law school as experience?

If you are asking about Army JAG, you will have to pass a PT test before you can graduate from JAOBC (which is sort of the JAG version of OCS) during which you will have several opportunities (at least three according to 1LT Harper and his JAOBC blog on armystrongstories.com). I'm not 100% on this but I don't believe you'll take a PT test before then. Maybe another member of this forum can weigh in on that.

Starting salary for a direct commission (O-2 with two years or less time in) Army JAG is $38,000 a year (taxable) but there's still BAH (varies depending on location but its typically around $1,000 a month, non-taxable), BAS ($223 a month, non-taxable), and there's the health coverage. Law school only counts towards pay if you were in ROTC and receive your JAG commission as an ed delay active duty selection. This is all on the Army JAG Corps site (jagcnet.army.mil) in the Frequently Asked Questions pdf found under the Join JAG portal.

As far as the PT test -- you'll take one when you first arrive at Fort Lee for the two week indoctrination before heading to C-Ville for OBC. There will be other opportunities to take the test later, but that will be one of the first things that you do.

BAH varies WILDLY based on location and number of dependents. I'm a married captain with two children, currently living in DC. I get 2740 a month. When I move to Fort Polk next year, my BAH will drop to 1300-ish. It's a major hit, but cost of living will also be lower. You can look at the BAH tables here: http://images.military.com/media/benefi ... ithout.pdf. That's the table for your typical unmarried type -- if you're married or have kids, you'll get more.

[xerxes]

On salary, question was whether you start at year 0 or not. I thought i read somewhere that law school counts as years for something. Thanks.

[abogadesq]

mmartinneal -

I am currently a GLP cadet, and I had the same worry. You're just going to have to bank on what you've done in the past. You'll neither have the chance to show law school extra-curricular involvement nor any law school oral advocacy skills. Frankly, you may not even have your first semester grades when you interview with the SJA. You'll have to send those in later. Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. Could you tell me what you think the most important element in the application was to your acceptance? Undergrad grades, LSAT, involvement, the interview? How important are the letters of recommendation? Congratulations on getting in GLP!

[Paichka]

On salary, question was whether you start at year 0 or not. I thought i read somewhere that law school counts as years for something. Thanks.

Well, in that case, then no -- salary goes from when you commission, which for most people will be when you graduate and come on active duty. None of your time in law school "counts" for pay or retirement purposes (unless you're attending law school as a FLEP candidate).

[bjack347]

On salary, question was whether you start at year 0 or not. I thought i read somewhere that law school counts as years for something. Thanks.

Well, in that case, then no -- salary goes from when you commission, which for most people will be when you graduate and come on active duty. None of your time in law school "counts" for pay or retirement purposes (unless you're attending law school as a FLEP candidate).

FLEP Candidate or ROTC Education Delay for law; both get years in school towards pay

[target]

a question for those who recently applied or are applying, how competitive is JAG nowadays? I heard some 2Ls, raising 3Ls, bitching to each other the other days that JAGs have become more competitive over the past couple years. Is this true? Would applying to the ROTC delaying program less competitive? tyia

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm in a sticky situation.

I bombed the LSAT so I'm at a T3/T4 school. However, I've done all the "right" things: good grades (top 10%), moot court, probably law review, judicial internship, etc...

At this point I think I've got a pretty good shot at getting into some T1 schools that I could have only dreamed of when first applying. However, I don't want to "lose" all those (above) things that I've worked for. Does the military care as much about the rank of the school or what you've done while in school? I've seen people selected from Harvard and from Cooley so I know they look at the whole range, but, with the market continuing to decline I'm guessing they can afford to take from the "better" schools.

I'm paying sticker right now (I know...fml) but hoping to get some scholarship offers once official rank comes out. What should I do - stay or go??

My recommendation would be to apply for transfer admission and make an educated decision this summer. As a whole, at least at the lowly O-3 level, the AF JAG Corps does not seem to give a crap about your law school pedigree (in respect to career progression - I cannot speak about influence on the accessions process). That said, the JAG Corps represents an awfully small part of law practice and the vast majority of folks are not going to be doing 20+ years in uniform. In making this decision you need to honestly assess the over/under of being selected for JAG, not a foregone conclusion these days, and then the odds of staying active duty, with all that entails. Should you not be picked up for JAG or decide after a few years that you want to go reserves and do civilian practice, your degree pedigree may matter a great deal more.

Apply to those dream T1 schools and figure things out then. You can either transfer and pick up the bright and shinny diploma, along with the debt, or leverage your transfer acceptances against your current school to get more scholarship money out of them.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm an incoming student at University of Florida law and I intend on applying to the Air Force GLP JAG program. My concern is, if I have to apply by January of my first year in law school as the Air Force website says, there is very little time for me to get any extracurriculars done during law school to put on my resume, no? Fortunately, I have done things before law school that I can add on my resume (homeless and environmental work), but first year students aren't allowed most extracurriculars. I plan on working with the Military Law student organization, and more out-of-school charity work, but my school restricts 1L from most in-school activities to - according to my adviser - prevent 1L students from blowing out. That being said, I'm afraid my halfway 1L resume will look pretty plain.

Every single 1L applicant has this issue. It is almost a certainty your 1L resume will look plain; not good nor bad - it is what it is.

I agree with Ashkenazy - if you are hoping for resume gravitas, it will have to come from previous experience. And be prepared to crush that interview with the SJA and the Detachment CC.

[Patrick Bateman]

a question for those who recently applied or are applying, how competitive is JAG nowadays? I heard some 2Ls, raising 3Ls, bitching to each other the other days that JAGs have become more competitive over the past couple years. Is this true? Would applying to the ROTC delaying program less competitive? tyia

Well south of 5%. The ROTC program is equally cut throat.

We are in a period of massive DOD budget cuts concurrent with a lousy economy that is particularly bad for incoming lawyers. JAG selection stats have been tight for a while now, attributative to the fact that it affords one the privilege to serve as an officer during a time of war, provides valuable context for pointing out errors in A Few Good Men (to the delight of friends/family watching it on TBS with you), and much like wearing a tuxedo, it is hard not to look good in uniform. The bad economy is pushing even more folks to apply while the amount of JAGs being hired is either staying constant or shrinking.

So, your raising [sic] and bitching 3Ls are not that far off the mark.

[bjack347]

a question for those who recently applied or are applying, how competitive is JAG nowadays? I heard some 2Ls, raising 3Ls, bitching to each other the other days that JAGs have become more competitive over the past couple years. Is this true? Would applying to the ROTC delaying program less competitive? tyia

Well south of 5%. The ROTC program is equally cut throat.

We are in a period of massive DOD budget cuts concurrent with a lousy economy that is particularly bad for incoming lawyers. JAG selection stats have been tight for a while now, attributative to the fact that it affords one the privilege to serve as an officer during a time of war, provides valuable context for pointing out errors in A Few Good Men (to the delight of friends/family watching it on TBS with you), and much like wearing a tuxedo, it is hard not to look good in uniform. The bad economy is pushing even more folks to apply while the amount of JAGs being hired is either staying constant or shrinking.

So, your raising [sic] and bitching 3Ls are not that far off the mark.

Ditto to that response.

I went the ROTC education delay route and was told by my PMS that I had better have a 3.8 and an Excellent rating at LDAC during my junior year of undergrad if I wanted one of the few spots given out each year (not sure what the number of slots was my year but the Army only gave out 22 spots the year before me). I've got a buddy in law school now who got one of the ROTC spots while in law school. He is uber high speed; near 4.0 gpa in undergrad, 3.3 and climbing in law school, and +300 on pt tests.

The ROTC ed delay route was a good one for me because I didn't think I would ever be willing to go back to the school through FLEP if I did some time in the Army. BUT!, ROTC ed delay students are put into the same boat as every other JAG applicant (except FLEP guys and gals; they already put in three years of service so their JAG commission is automatic). While I was fortunate enough to be selected this past fall, I know some ed delays who were not. And let me tell you it is one of the most nerve-racking experiences ever to wait 3 months to be told whether the last three years of your life spent grinding it out in law school will actually translate into a legal job in the Army. Those ed delays who were not selected still owe their 8 years, but in other branches.

[bjack347]

I'm in a sticky situation.

I bombed the LSAT so I'm at a T3/T4 school. However, I've done all the "right" things: good grades (top 10%), moot court, probably law review, judicial internship, etc...

At this point I think I've got a pretty good shot at getting into some T1 schools that I could have only dreamed of when first applying. However, I don't want to "lose" all those (above) things that I've worked for. Does the military care as much about the rank of the school or what you've done while in school? I've seen people selected from Harvard and from Cooley so I know they look at the whole range, but, with the market continuing to decline I'm guessing they can afford to take from the "better" schools.

I'm paying sticker right now (I know...fml) but hoping to get some scholarship offers once official rank comes out. What should I do - stay or go??

My recommendation would be to apply for transfer admission and make an educated decision this summer. As a whole, at least at the lowly O-3 level, the AF JAG Corps does not seem to give a crap about your law school pedigree (in respect to career progression - I cannot speak about influence on the accessions process). That said, the JAG Corps represents an awfully small part of law practice and the vast majority of folks are not going to be doing 20+ years in uniform. In making this decision you need to honestly assess the over/under of being selected for JAG, not a foregone conclusion these days, and then the odds of staying active duty, with all that entails. Should you not be picked up for JAG or decide after a few years that you want to go reserves and do civilian practice, your degree pedigree may matter a great deal more.

Apply to those dream T1 schools and figure things out then. You can either transfer and pick up the bright and shinny diploma, along with the debt, or leverage your transfer acceptances against your current school to get more scholarship money out of them.

I'd agree with Bateman here too.

I'm from one of those not so good schools you might have seen on that list when you saw Harvard and Cooley. I was nowhere near the top 10% (more like top 50%) and had none of the extracurriculars you mentioned. I got in because I killed it in my interview and because my application and recommendations conveyed loads of leadership intangibles. The school you attend does NOT matter. Being in the top 10 % and doing ALL of those extra-curriculars does not necessarily matter. Still, the selection rate is still 5-6% so having those things definitely increases you chances. Even if you do not do as well as top 10% at these other schools, you will still earn a better degree and there are other ways to bolster your JAG app. At least apply and see where you get in. IMO, if it is not in the top 30 to 40 law schools, stick with the good thing you have going for you.

[weevil]

I have a few questions that I'm hoping some active JAGs might be able to answer for me. I feel fairly certain that JAG is what I want to do (if they will take me), but I am torn between my career goals and...well, my personal life. My fiancee, a rising 3L, is going to a firm in DC this summer and presumably post graduation. So while I know that JAG would be perfect for me, I also don't think either of us want to do a 2-3 year long distance relationship from, say, DC to Nellis. Obviously I would be deployed with JAG for 6 months (I think?) but permanent living situation is a little different. How much say do JAGs have for location? Is the fate of my future marriage pretty much up to the military?

I also don't want to count my chickens, since I know how ridiculously hard it is to get JAG to begin with. I was fortunate enough to get a JAG internship this summer (I am a rising 2L); does this improve my chances? Should I try to intern with JAG my 2L summer as well, or would that be useless? In the event that I don't get selected for boards I obviously don't want to be jobless, so I don't know if my best bet is to look for a firm job for next summer. I also don't know if taking a firm job would reflect badly on me.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or opinions you might have to offer!