Military Law Forum

[BigFatPanda]

Oh, and Army has a large patent and environmental practice also. We are the largest of the JAG Corps (even bigger than Navy ). Just FYI.

Interesting, can you elaborate on this topic? Any online source you can refer me to?

[Paichka]

Oh, and Army has a large patent and environmental practice also. We are the largest of the JAG Corps (even bigger than Navy ). Just FYI.

Interesting, can you elaborate on this topic? Any online source you can refer me to?

Yeah, what would you like to know?

The Army, like the other services, employs a large R&D staff -- we have people working on secret squirrel stuff at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Maryland, at the Research, Development and Engineering Command here at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, and a few other places around the country. Litigation of patents and contracts are done through our Civil Litigation Division here in DC, appealed to the Armed Forces Board of Contract Appeals and then on to the Federal Circuit.

The ABA's Military Law Webpage (LinkRemoved)

[BigFatPanda]

Yeah, what would you like to know?

The Army, like the other services, employs a large R&D staff -- we have people working on secret squirrel stuff at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Maryland, at the Research, Development and Engineering Command here at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, and a few other places around the country. Litigation of patents and contracts are done through our Civil Litigation Division here in DC, appealed to the Armed Forces Board of Contract Appeals and then on to the Federal Circuit.

The ABA's Military Law Webpage (LinkRemoved)

Is that what you will be doing as a JAG?

Thanks for the link and the info.

[sfalloon]

I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news.

...

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP.

This info would really surprise the 3L USN FLEP-er with me here and the handful of friends who have been picked up over the years-- one who is now the JAG on an aircraft carrier.

Did you maybe mean SLRP (student loan repayment plan)? IIRC, Navy doesn't pay back loans if you've already sunk the money before joining.

Well Rotor,

I spoke to a Navy rep via the online chat on the Navy Website and the recruiter told me there are only two ways to get into JAG (1) apply while you are a law student or (2) apply after you become a licences attonery. I specifically asked the recruiter if the Navy had the FLEP option and recruiter "mod 1" said No.

SLRP isn't something I'm looking for. I am in debt but I think that is something I should have looked at before making the choices I did, so I am ok with simply working for a while and paying it down before law school (which is why I'm for going an earlier decision).

FLEP is attractive to someone like me - who maps things out and sometimes fails to acess the most important thing, do I really want or need this - beacuse it gives me a chance to step back and really look at what I am doing before jumping in. I have had an affinity for the military since the age of 6 (the frist time I remeber seeing scouts train with the JDF) and have been seriously contemplating joining it for over 7 yrs. It is not something I woke up wanting yesterday.

[helfer snooterbagon]

I don't know how but I missed the post that said USN does not have FLEP and ended up talking to a recruiter and got the bad news.

...

-- Still can't believe the Navy doesn't have FLEP.

This info would really surprise the 3L USN FLEP-er with me here and the handful of friends who have been picked up over the years-- one who is now the JAG on an aircraft carrier.

Did you maybe mean SLRP (student loan repayment plan)? IIRC, Navy doesn't pay back loans if you've already sunk the money before joining.

Well Rotor,

I spoke to a Navy rep via the online chat on the Navy Website and the recruiter told me there are only two ways to get into JAG (1) apply while you are a law student or (2) apply after you become a licences attonery. I specifically asked the recruiter if the Navy had the FLEP option and recruiter "mod 1" said No.

Your recruiter did not tell the CNO.


--LinkRemoved--

[Paichka]

Yeah, what would you like to know?

The Army, like the other services, employs a large R&D staff -- we have people working on secret squirrel stuff at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Maryland, at the Research, Development and Engineering Command here at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, and a few other places around the country. Litigation of patents and contracts are done through our Civil Litigation Division here in DC, appealed to the Armed Forces Board of Contract Appeals and then on to the Federal Circuit.

The ABA's Military Law Webpage (LinkRemoved)

Is that what you will be doing as a JAG?

Thanks for the link and the info.

Yeeee...I hope not. Contracts and IP and Patents are all well and good, but give me a nice criminal trial any day of the week. I want to focus on military justice, with an ultimate career goal of serving as a military judge on the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.

[Rotor]

I spoke to a Navy rep via the online chat on the Navy Website and the recruiter told me there are only two ways to get into JAG (1) apply while you are a law student or (2) apply after you become a licences attonery. I specifically asked the recruiter if the Navy had the FLEP option and recruiter "mod 1" said No.

SLRP isn't something I'm looking for. I am in debt but I think that is something I should have looked at before making the choices I did, so I am ok with simply working for a while and paying it down before law school (which is why I'm for going an earlier decision).

FLEP is attractive to someone like me - who maps things out and sometimes fails to acess the most important thing, do I really want or need this - beacuse it gives me a chance to step back and really look at what I am doing before jumping in. I have had an affinity for the military since the age of 6 (the frist time I remeber seeing scouts train with the JDF) and have been seriously contemplating joining it for over 7 yrs. It is not something I woke up wanting yesterday.

Not questioning your sincerity at all. As the linked message above documented much better than my anecdotal info, there is a Navy FLEP. Not sure why the recruiter told you otherwise. Normally the recruiter's quota would incentivize telling you about FLEP ("sign on now and become a JAG after serving a few years") rather than DC which postpones signing on until well after his/her recruiter tour is over.

[sfalloon]

Thank you Tenacious,
My question to you Tenacious is are there senior partners from the older generations that would look at a candidate such as that and view these qualities and do you think if I were to go to a top 15 law school and maintain competitive grades they would then consider those factors alongside of my service. I know I'm asking a lot of you and I know that every situation and every firm differs but if you could give me the best answer as a corporate lawyer using your perception of the corporate world and the corporate law firm psyche I would be very grateful. After all I have spoken with these men who maintained low 3.0s and get into second teir law schools and then do marginal work and I assure you that I'm not this person.

Gamble426,

I have no clue what a senior partner would think but I was able to locate a firm with two partners who are former JAG core members.

Mark Wood and John A. Janega are both partners in the law firm O'Melveny & Myers, LLP.
Wood is a partner in their Aviation practice while Janger is a lead staff attorney for the firm.

O'Melveny's website is attached below.

http://www.omm.com/

I am not sure how much help this info will be but they might be open to speaking with you if you explain your reasons. The worst they could do is say no, right?

[sccjnthn]

Does anybody have experience with the time commitment in the Reserves/NG?

I am trying to decide between 4 years IRR and 2 years Reserves (stabilized the whole time) but want to know whether the time commitment will be too great during 1L. Also curious whether the 2 weeks in the summer will limit my legal options after 1L.

[OIF2LAW]

Does anybody have experience with the time commitment in the Reserves/NG?

I am trying to decide between 4 years IRR and 2 years Reserves (stabilized the whole time) but want to know whether the time commitment will be too great during 1L. Also curious whether the 2 weeks in the summer will limit my legal options after 1L.

I start my two year commitment with the Reserves (with stabilization) in August. I owe approximately six months additional to my two year contract before I can erase all of my IRR time. If I choose to leave the Reserves upon completion of my two year contract, but before serving the six extra months, I owe my initial IRR obligation.

It's a risk I am willing to take. If my unit is scheduled to deploy after my two years, I will take my chances on IRR.

[LessThanLiz]

Galahad. The bigger problem of people who are joining these days is that they are overweight not bean-pole-ish (and I say that in the most light-hearted way...). You are probably right to want to pack on a little muscle, but you're not going to be overtaxed physically in the AF or Navy (land services maybe...as described with the USMC, the most fitness centric service).

Navy is increasing its fitness culture, directing PT 3x a week on "company time". All personnel have to pass semi-annual fitness tests where you have to do situps, pushups and run 1.5 miles (or swim 500 yds) as the standard cardio test. It's not entirely challenging, but you have to take it seriously. 3 failures in 4 years = mandatory discharge.

Good luck. I don't think you'll have anything to worry about.

Weeeell, I was intent on reading through the whole thread before asking questions but I guess I'm becoming a little bit impatient, so here it goes:

I'm a bit of a fitness nut. I know I can pass the PT requirements and competitively at that (looking at Navy JAG, possibly AF.) I am also 5'2 (female, in case the username didn't give it away) and about 120 pounds. I could easily shed 10 simply by dropping weight lifting alone and ditching the muscle (has sadly happened when I had to sacrifice my gym time for more immediate concerns.) That said, I have heard that the military uses a fairly archaic method of measurement (I've also heard it's primarily geared toward looking good in a uniform? Not sure how much stock I put in that) before moving on to body-fat percentage (which, according to usmilitary.about, I am in more than a safe range.) Still, would that count against me? Would I be more competitive if I just ditched part of my regimen prior to any sort of measuring? I don't like the idea of weakening my fitness regimen but I suppose if it could be tailored to some of the immediate requirements I could do it.

EDIT: Also, I definitely appreciate the advice. Originally, I tried asking these questions on military forums and I'm afraid I received answers that were all over the place. Oh, and forgive me if I'm jumping the gun again and this has already been linked, but I found these videos (LinkRemoved) helpful when I was originally considering the USMC's PLC option as an undergrad (even though it covers OCS, complete with a JAG applicant.)

[AFBRAT]

--LinkRemoved--

You are 30 lbs UNDER weight max.

If I remember Navy is 5 lbs less.

Worry about leadership skills and GPA/class rank.

[Undead_Ed]

Does anybody have experience with the time commitment in the Reserves/NG?

I am trying to decide between 4 years IRR and 2 years Reserves (stabilized the whole time) but want to know whether the time commitment will be too great during 1L. Also curious whether the 2 weeks in the summer will limit my legal options after 1L.

I believe what you are asking is whether the day-to-day commitment (one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year) is too much for a law student. Having served in the Army Reserve during the entirety of law school, I think that commitment should not pose a problem for you.

I can't give any guarantees because unit leadership policies vary, but I never had a commander who would make students attend AT during the school year. Every unit usually has a number of college students, and commanders are usually willing to work with them. I regularly got permission to make up drills that were scheduled around finals.

In reference to your 1L summer, being in the Army Reserves requires that you actually attend 2 weeks of some kind of training at some time during the year. You would likely have to work with your summer employer to work around it. I got time off from the US Attorney's Office to attend AT without much difficulty. I would imagine that your commander would outright excuse you for a JAG summer internship if you got one.

You can PM me if you have any more questions.

[sfalloon]

Not questioning your sincerity at all. As the linked message above documented much better than my anecdotal info, there is a Navy FLEP. Not sure why the recruiter told you otherwise. Normally the recruiter's quota would incentivize telling you about FLEP ("sign on now and become a JAG after serving a few years") rather than DC which postpones signing on until well after his/her recruiter tour is over.

Rotor,

I didn't intend to be as defensive as I was. I've been getting some flack for my decision and I guess that as well as my irritation showed up in my response.

I checked the USN JAG site and found out that you guys are right they do have FLEP in the Navy but they call it LEP. I am starting to lean more and more toward the Navy but I have decided speak with both the Navy and the Air Force. I am looking at arranging a meeting with a recruiter hopefully for the end of next week or early into the following week. LEP/FLEP is definitely the route I am taking, that much I know for sure. I am hoping I'll get placed in intelligence for my first two years of service.

--
I am happy someone asked the weight question as I'm 5 ft 3 1/2 and I weighed 119, the last time I checked. I'm sure quite a bit of it is body fat (a gym has not seen me in over a year and the only thing I do in terms of exercise is walk during the day at work). I start training in two weeks, so hopefully I'll be able to meet the physical requirements by then.

---
I'll let you know how every thing goes.

Thank you all.

[Eagle]

Wow. I'm pretty upset. I just got a letter from the Army JAG JARO and I'm tentatively scheduled to attend the 186th JAOBC, which starts in October 2011. That's almost a year and a half away. I probably should have submitted my letter of intent earlier...

[Undead_Ed]

Wow. I'm pretty upset. I just got a letter from the Army JAG JARO and I'm tentatively scheduled to attend the 186th JAOBC, which starts in October 2011. That's almost a year and a half away. I probably should have submitted my letter of intent earlier...

OMG. Talk about a kick in the nuts.

I don't have my letter yet, so I don't know if I am in the same class. Geez. One full year after bar results.

[Eagle]

You might be in better shape, Ed. Part of the reason I got the late start date is because California waits forever to return bar results. Bar results in California come out in late November. The other reason is that I waited until the last minute to submit my letter of intent. In hindsight, I probably should have submitted it the day I got accepted. I was still waiting for my results from Navy JAG at the time and didn't want to lead Army JAG on in case I chose Navy.

I don't know what I'm going to do for a full year after I take the bar. I'll probably have to clerk for $15/hr. without benefits at some private law firm. I doubt anybody would be willing to hire me full time if I'm just going to leave in a year. One thing is for sure---I'm going to be crashing on my parents' sofa.

[wrichcirw]

Hello all,

First and foremost, thanks for everyone that posted on this thread with advice and constructive criticism. Believe it or not, I read all 1000+ posts over the past week (I won't vouch that I've retained all of it). Extremely vivid picture of the services and personalities embedded in them. I'm amazed to see the progression of JAGs like Capt Bateman.

My questions are broad yet detailed. Let me begin:

I'm an undergrad at Cal right now, about to enter 4th year after doing a 7 year stint as AF enlisted. Aiming for a 165-170 LSAT, and then considering my options from there. GPA since hon. discharge around 3.6 (although cumulative around 3.2).

It looks like BigLaw frowns upon people in my age set (I'll be 36 upon graduating LS) for what I assume to be reasons relating to virility, and frankly, after hearing about the 80+ hour weeks, I'd have to say that it seems to exceed the military's ability to destroy family life, and is thus not for me. JAG thus looks exceptionally attractive to me.

1) Sounds like aim for the best LS attainable with whatever my GPA and LSAT becomes after October. Funding generally not an issue due to GIBill and possible Yellow Ribbon. Am I missing anything here? Would it be frowned upon if I chose Hawaii's T2 for my legal education (great locale, low tuition and high BAH rates)?

2) Sounds like from the posts here that my enlisted record will be a big plus (no negs, firewall 5s, numerous decorations and etc); also the questions 'so why JAG?' and 'do you plan to do the full 20' can be answered candidly (definite and informed 'yes' to the second). Anything amiss?

3) AF active JAGs still need to be below 35 (age) at time of commission? If so, seems I may be tapping the navy/CS.

4) This is the big one - what kind of lifestyle would one expect if one went JAG in the AF reserves? Most of this thread seems geared towards somehow breaking through that 5-10% acceptance rate for active, but upon talking to a reserve recruiter, I discovered that AF JAG reserve's age limit got increased to 37, meaning that they are hurting for reserve JAG.
a) What else could one expect to do with a JD if one went this route - do small/midsize firms frown upon the obligation to the AFR?
b) Is this why reserve JAG are such a sought-after breed? (i.e., is reserve duty almost antagonistic to a JD's normal full-time employ outside of federal work thus limiting the pool of applicants?)
c) Also, what are the opportunities for active-duty-like jobs in the reserves (I can't remember exactly what they called 'full employment')?
d) Is it conceivable to do 8-10 years of 'full employment' out of the next 12, and then continue for another 10 without 'full employment' until one reaches the 55 year mark and becomes eligible for retirement pay? (I ask this specifically because in my situation this would almost match active duty retirement pay) Just considering options and what I'd be doing if I went the reserve route.
e) Also, are the reserves more or less accommodating towards people who settle in one location?
f) Conversely, is there freedom to move about at will and still retain all the benefits of being a reservist (i.e., do I own myself as long as I'm not 'fully employed' by the reserves)?
g) What opportunities are there for reserve JAG overseas? I will be partial to Korea, so given the needs of the AF in general, I think this will suit both of us quite well.

This is all way down-the-line, but I want to plan for as much as I possibly can before committing to 3 more years of schooling. As much as I appreciate this thread, the age limit renders most of it largely irrelevant to my situation as far as AF active JAG is concerned, and after spending 3+ years in joint service environments, I would definitely choose AF over the other services (would consider navy/CS).

Thanks again to the numerous posters who really made this discussion come alive.

[Patrick Bateman]

Hello all,

First and foremost, thanks for everyone that posted on this thread with advice and constructive criticism. Believe it or not, I read all 1000+ posts over the past week (I won't vouch that I've retained all of it). Extremely vivid picture of the services and personalities embedded in them. I'm amazed to see the progression of JAGs like Capt Bateman.

My questions are broad yet detailed. Let me begin:

I'm an undergrad at Cal right now, about to enter 4th year after doing a 7 year stint as AF enlisted. Aiming for a 165-170 LSAT, and then considering my options from there. GPA since hon. discharge around 3.6 (although cumulative around 3.2).

It looks like BigLaw frowns upon people in my age set (I'll be 36 upon graduating LS) for what I assume to be reasons relating to virility, and frankly, after hearing about the 80+ hour weeks, I'd have to say that it seems to exceed the military's ability to destroy family life, and is thus not for me. JAG thus looks exceptionally attractive to me.

1) Sounds like aim for the best LS attainable with whatever my GPA and LSAT becomes after October. Funding generally not an issue due to GIBill and possible Yellow Ribbon. Am I missing anything here? Would it be frowned upon if I chose Hawaii's T2 for my legal education (great locale, low tuition and high BAH rates)?

2) Sounds like from the posts here that my enlisted record will be a big plus (no negs, firewall 5s, numerous decorations and etc); also the questions 'so why JAG?' and 'do you plan to do the full 20' can be answered candidly (definite and informed 'yes' to the second). Anything amiss?

3) AF active JAGs still need to be below 35 (age) at time of commission? If so, seems I may be tapping the navy/CS.

4) This is the big one - what kind of lifestyle would one expect if one went JAG in the AF reserves? Most of this thread seems geared towards somehow breaking through that 5-10% acceptance rate for active, but upon talking to a reserve recruiter, I discovered that AF JAG reserve's age limit got increased to 37, meaning that they are hurting for reserve JAG.
a) What else could one expect to do with a JD if one went this route - do small/midsize firms frown upon the obligation to the AFR?
b) Is this why reserve JAG are such a sought-after breed? (i.e., is reserve duty almost antagonistic to a JD's normal full-time employ outside of federal work thus limiting the pool of applicants?)
c) Also, what are the opportunities for active-duty-like jobs in the reserves (I can't remember exactly what they called 'full employment')?
d) Is it conceivable to do 8-10 years of 'full employment' out of the next 12, and then continue for another 10 without 'full employment' until one reaches the 55 year mark and becomes eligible for retirement pay? (I ask this specifically because in my situation this would almost match active duty retirement pay) Just considering options and what I'd be doing if I went the reserve route.
e) Also, are the reserves more or less accommodating towards people who settle in one location?
f) Conversely, is there freedom to move about at will and still retain all the benefits of being a reservist (i.e., do I own myself as long as I'm not 'fully employed' by the reserves)?
g) What opportunities are there for reserve JAG overseas? I will be partial to Korea, so given the needs of the AF in general, I think this will suit both of us quite well.

This is all way down-the-line, but I want to plan for as much as I possibly can before committing to 3 more years of schooling. As much as I appreciate this thread, the age limit renders most of it largely irrelevant to my situation as far as AF active JAG is concerned, and after spending 3+ years in joint service environments, I would definitely choose AF over the other services (would consider navy/CS).

Thanks again to the numerous posters who really made this discussion come alive.

Unfortunately your age may bar you from commissioning with the USAF, which is supremely unfortuate given your outstanding resume. The official rule is 35, though age waivers do exist (although I cannot comment how frequently they are granted). There are special exceptions for prior officers (the time you spent commissioned is subtracted from your age) but they do not do the same for enlisted service. I will not get started on my feelings about this rule.

AF recently (2 years ago, +/-) started direct commissioning people in to the Reserves. It is entirely possible that your ability to get an age waiver is more likely if you go Reserve. I strongly suggest calling JAX (800-JAG-USAF) and seeing what your options are.

I have several outstanding Reserve JAGs and paralegals in my current office. If it turns out you are able to commission to the AF JAG Reserve, reply or shoot me a PM and I'll do my best to answer your detailed questions.

[Indianapolis]

Just received a call letting me know that I made it through the June Boards for AFJAG! Has anyone else received the call? Not sure what class I'll be in - hope to find out when I get my packet soon. EDIT: Will my class be determined after I submit acceptance?

Also, I'm reading the IRS Armed Services Tax Guide. Question: Has anybody used the Sale of Home exclusion to receive partial or total relief from paying taxes on the gains from the sale of your home? Wife and I will need to sell, and in this market, we're wondering if we should try to sell this summer, or wait until active. Or does it even matter to the IRS in order to receive this adjustment?

[Eagle]

You also might want to look into a 1031 exchange would allow you to avoid paying taxes on the sale of your home if you were to buy a new home within 180 days after selling your old home.

[TenaciousD]

Just received a call letting me know that I made it through the June Boards for AFJAG! Has anyone else received the call?

Congrats, Indy! Me too.

[wrichcirw]

Congrats to the lucky few who made it. AF is definitely the way to go. I've had too many Army guys tell me that to believe otherwise...

To Capt Bateman,

I tried calling the 800 number a couple times - my guess is that JAG recruiting is a rather specialized AFSC (or perhaps a specialized part of a specialized AFSC), so I got the answering machine. Do you have an email contact, perhaps of whomever is the current JAG recruiter? I'd much appreciate it.

My understanding of the age issue is that 35 is already the waivered age. The concern seems to stem from whether or not you'd make high rank before hitting 60, but the reserve recruiter agreed that it seemed like a bunch of garbage. I'd try to defend the bit about officers getting preferential treatment (the AF is the rare service where the officers fight and die, and the enlisted stay behind the lines and make up the support staff), but given my situation, I'm more than willing to overlook that argument.

As far as the detailed questions go, some are in my post...basically, I have a somewhat decent idea what to expect as a reservist, but not necessarily a JAG reservist with a ridiculously expensive education. I'll be lucky in the sense that I can probably play my cards right and walk away with a JD and minimal debt, but finding any sort of job in this market without looking under or overqualified (and thus rejected) look grim. As a JAG reservist, I'd also imagine that most law firms of any size would not take too kindly to the random deployment or what not, and may discriminate without directly or even intentionally doing so.

So, here's a short list:

1) QoL - how easy is it for a JAG to move about, and conversely, how easy is it for a JAG to stay put once (s)he settles down?
2) Going active - if a JAG reservist were to attempt to return to active duty, what are the chances of doing so? How would TIS and etc figure into retirement given the reserve stint?
3) How are assignments in Korea? Are they treated like the quasi-deployments that active duty turns them into? If so, are you limited to one year tours, can you easily extend out, and do you get choice of follow-on afterward? Not too sure yet, but I may be in a situation that would be very favorable towards staying as long as possible in Korea. This may seem like a specific question, but I know Korea is that one place that every Airman knows about.
4) Do you recommend commissioning first as a 0L, getting the JD, and then going from there? I am impartial towards deploying during law school - if it's anything like undergrad, I know I won't be caught with my pants down. If it increases my chances of going JAG reservist and (hopefully) eventually back to active, I'll give it a shot.
5) If active duty is not an option, then what about treating the reserves as close to active duty as possible? Say, out of the next 20 years, doing 15 'fully employed' (I can't remember what the reserves call this, it's like 'active duty augmentation' or something). How easy would it be to do this? Would I be constantly worried about finding full-time employment every time I considered PCSing?

Thanks again, especially for the quick reply. I hope someone in your chain at least recognizes the work you've put into this gigantic thread. Cheers.

[Eagle]

AF is definitely the way to go. I've had too many Army guys tell me that to believe otherwise...

If by Air Force you mean "Chair Force"....jk

[Rotor]

It looks like BigLaw frowns upon people in my age set (I'll be 36 upon graduating LS) for what I assume to be reasons relating to virility, and frankly, after hearing about the 80+ hour weeks, I'd have to say that it seems to exceed the military's ability to destroy family life, and is thus not for me. JAG thus looks exceptionally attractive to me.

I thought the same thing as I was starting last year. However, conversations I've had with hiring partners at several firms have said this stereotype is not true-- even for guys my age (43). I guess we'll see if they walk the walk this fall at OCIP, but for now I can only go on what they have told me.

That still doesn't address your QOL issues, even if 80+ hours is probably just myth (most weeks...). But I mention it so you don't foreclose any options (especially if you're barred from going the JAG route).