Military Law Forum

[Rocky Estoppel]

I'm far from an authority on this so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I'm former military and have never known anyone in the military with asthma. As far as I know it is non-waiverable for military service.

I personally knew someone that wanted to be in the military more than anything so he hid the fact that he had minor asthma. It eventually was discovered in boot camp and he was immediately discharged.

I'm not sure if it is different for different career paths (vision is more waiverable in administrative positions rather than being a pilot). Since every single position in the military requires physical fitness I don't think they make any exceptions for asthma.

Like I said, that is just my thoughts and feelings from what I've gathered. I'm not the authority on the matter so I'd just call and ask someone to find out for sure.

*Also, if you don't feel that you have asthma, I'd get a doctor to check you out and confirm that you do not and still disclose your past medical history with a statement from a doctor that you do not have asthma. And have this ready before you disclose anything.

[TenaciousD]

Also, for whatever it is worth, physical fitness is not an issue. I will max the pft and have run many races, including 7 marathons and halfs in the last four years without incident. I was the fat kid and think the breathing trouble was just an outgrowth of generally poor health and fitness, but that is no longer an issue. And asthma and breathing trouble certainly isn't an issue anymore, if it ever was.

[Rocky Estoppel]

Also, for whatever it is worth, physical fitness is not an issue. I will max the pft and have run many races, including 7 marathons and halfs in the last four years without incident. I was the fat kid and think the breathing trouble was just an outgrowth of generally poor health and fitness, but that is no longer an issue. And asthma and breathing trouble certainly isn't an issue anymore, if it ever was.

I believe you. The problem is that the military probably won't care. They see the word asthma and they immediately connect that to breathing difficulties and problems with physical fitness.

The guy I knew who was discharged for his asthma had no trouble with PT and came close to maxing out on his PFT.

Like I said, I'd get a doctor to confirm that you have no problems and then disclose everything together. That way you are being honest but you still give them a reason to let it slide.

[TenaciousD]

Also, for whatever it is worth, physical fitness is not an issue. I will max the pft and have run many races, including 7 marathons and halfs in the last four years without incident. I was the fat kid and think the breathing trouble was just an outgrowth of generally poor health and fitness, but that is no longer an issue. And asthma and breathing trouble certainly isn't an issue anymore, if it ever was.

I believe you. The problem is that the military probably won't care. They see the word asthma and they immediately connect that to breathing difficulties and problems with physical fitness.

The guy I knew who was discharged for his asthma had no trouble with PT and came close to maxing out on his PFT.

Like I said, I'd get a doctor to confirm that you have no problems and then disclose everything together. That way you are being honest but you still give them a reason to let it slide.

I'm committed to being open an honest, whatever the consequences. That's always the best policy, and one to which I must be committed as an officer and an attorney.

I do have letters from folks demonstrating my fitness and am trying to provide enough information to overcome any preliminary problems--I've taken a PFT, gotten letters from my primary care physicians, and attest to my physical fitness (albeit briefly; hard to toe the line between "preemtpive" and "defensive"). I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has been like me, with a stray asthma word showing up in his medical record while surrounded by all this contradictory evidence, and gotten through.

[OIF2LAW]

Run 5 miles at a 9 minute pace. Next, run 2 at sub-15. If you have no issues than don't disclose it. It was an adolescent diagnosis and irrelevant now. You will receive a Military medical evaluation when you process MEPS. See if they "detect" asthma. Don't put your career in jeopardy over this.

With that said, you may need to reconsider if you develop difficulty breathing on those runs

[OIF2LAW]

I had "seasonal asthma" most of my childhood. Usually, around summer, I developed severe bronchial spasms which required a hospital visit and nebulizer (spelling) treatments. No longer is an issue so I didn't make it one when I joined the Army. Served honorably without issue for the 4 years. Not sure if it was in my original medical packet.

[TenaciousD]

Run 5 miles at a 9 minute pace. Next, run 2 at sub-15. If you have no issues than don't disclose it. It was an adolescent diagnosis and irrelevant now. You will receive a Military medical evaluation when you process MEPS. See if they "detect" asthma. Don't put your career in jeopardy over this.

With that said, you may need to reconsider if you develop difficulty breathing on those runs

I'm glad to see it won't be an issue if I make it through, but I'm not comfortable skirting a known issue. (I can run 2 miles sub 12, almost 11, and 5 miles sub 35, fwiw). It's in my records, I know it is, and I'm signing. Nothing worth more than honor.

[Groundie]

Edit: delete

[3milesup]

Army JAG Reserves -- May 2010 Selection Board results are in: --LinkRemoved--


Also, happy to report ... I MADE IT!

Now the fun of waiting, medical screening, and paperwork. Thanks to everyone for all the advice!

[Rotor]

TenaciousD-- not quite analogous, but close. When I was doing my precomm physical before flight school, the doc saw a childhood diagnosis of hayfever-- a disqualifying condition at the time. Instead of a straight DQ, they sent me to a specialist who determined I had been asympomatic for x years and was cleared.

As for disclosing or not-- read the question VERY carefully. Some forms say "have you had in the last x years..." Others say "do you have or have you ever had...". If it's the former, you'll be able to omit with a clear conscience. If it's the latter, only you can judge whether that was a genuine diagnosis. If it was only "possible asthma" it doesn't sound very definitive.

[screen_name1]

Long time lurker -- a couple questions for you JAG folks:

(1) Can someone explain to me precisely how the Army (and soon Air Force?) $65,000 loan repayment inducement is administered? Is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan (calculated at the start) administered in 3 installments, or is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan paid after the first year followed by 1/3 of the remainder the next and so on? It seems to me like the statute reads as if it's the second way.

For example, under the first system, a person who had $60,000 in eligible student loans would get $20,000 in three installments after each year of service (which I don't think would actually wipe out the amount after taxes are taken out, but still a great benefit). Under the second system, the person would receive $20,000 after the first year to lower the principal to $40,000, then $13,333.33 the second year to lower principal to $26,666.67, then $8888.89 the third year.

Also, are these guaranteed for all JAGs? Is it competitive year by year? Do you have to sacrifice GI Bill benefits to get it?

Just curious -- It's a significant difference, though I'm likely going to be applying either way.

(2) I also recall reading a post somewhere in this thread about commissioning directly to 0-3 with 4-6 years of practice -- is that pretty standard?

(3) Does anybody know if years in service translate towards years for retirement purposes in federal government work? For example, could someone stack 4 years of JAF service onto 21 years as an AUSA for retirement/pension purposes?

(4) For AF, when do you get your base assignment? It's before committing, right? Choice of two possible locations?

[Eagle]

I can take a stab at the the first question. Assuming your loan principal is in excess of 65K, your lender would receive three equal payments of $21,666 over the first three years of your four year service obligation. This money would be treated like income for tax purposes, but you would still probably be in a low tax bracket because the money is not distributed all at once. You would not forgo additional military benefits by taking advantage of the loan repayment program. The program is currently available to all new active duty Army judge advocates upon successful completion of the Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course (JAOBC). Like any entitlement program there are no guarantees, but I think this one should stick around for at least a little while.

[Patrick Bateman]

Long time lurker -- a couple questions for you JAG folks:

(1) Can someone explain to me precisely how the Army (and soon Air Force?) $65,000 loan repayment inducement is administered? Is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan (calculated at the start) administered in 3 installments, or is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan paid after the first year followed by 1/3 of the remainder the next and so on? It seems to me like the statute reads as if it's the second way.

For example, under the first system, a person who had $60,000 in eligible student loans would get $20,000 in three installments after each year of service (which I don't think would actually wipe out the amount after taxes are taken out, but still a great benefit). Under the second system, the person would receive $20,000 after the first year to lower the principal to $40,000, then $13,333.33 the second year to lower principal to $26,666.67, then $8888.89 the third year.

Also, are these guaranteed for all JAGs? Is it competitive year by year? Do you have to sacrifice GI Bill benefits to get it?

Just curious -- It's a significant difference, though I'm likely going to be applying either way.

(2) I also recall reading a post somewhere in this thread about commissioning directly to 0-3 with 4-6 years of practice -- is that pretty standard?

(3) Does anybody know if years in service translate towards years for retirement purposes in federal government work? For example, could someone stack 4 years of JAF service onto 21 years as an AUSA for retirement/pension purposes?

(4) For AF, when do you get your base assignment? It's before committing, right? Choice of two possible locations?

1. For more information on AF JAG loan repayment:

http://airforceots.com/portal/modules.p ... ic&t=16430

2. I think it is 6 for the Air Force. I have yet to meet any JAG that commissioned as an O-3 due to the age cut off of 35, but I guess it is possible to thread that needle.

3. Military time counts towards Fed retirement but Fed time does not count toward Military retirement.

4. Before you take your oath of office, after you get selected, pass the bar (assuming you have not already), etc. You'll turn in a base assignment preference form but no guarantees you'll get either base from that list. And yes, you get to pick from two possible bases for your first assignment (though not any time after that in your career).

[Baylan]

Long time lurker -- a couple questions for you JAG folks:

(1) Can someone explain to me precisely how the Army (and soon Air Force?) $65,000 loan repayment inducement is administered? Is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan (calculated at the start) administered in 3 installments, or is it 1/3 of the total amount of the loan paid after the first year followed by 1/3 of the remainder the next and so on? It seems to me like the statute reads as if it's the second way.

For example, under the first system, a person who had $60,000 in eligible student loans would get $20,000 in three installments after each year of service (which I don't think would actually wipe out the amount after taxes are taken out, but still a great benefit). Under the second system, the person would receive $20,000 after the first year to lower the principal to $40,000, then $13,333.33 the second year to lower principal to $26,666.67, then $8888.89 the third year.

Also, are these guaranteed for all JAGs? Is it competitive year by year? Do you have to sacrifice GI Bill benefits to get it?

Just curious -- It's a significant difference, though I'm likely going to be applying either way.

(2) I also recall reading a post somewhere in this thread about commissioning directly to 0-3 with 4-6 years of practice -- is that pretty standard?

(3) Does anybody know if years in service translate towards years for retirement purposes in federal government work? For example, could someone stack 4 years of JAF service onto 21 years as an AUSA for retirement/pension purposes?

(4) For AF, when do you get your base assignment? It's before committing, right? Choice of two possible locations?

1. For more information on AF JAG loan repayment:

http://airforceots.com/portal/modules.p ... ic&t=16430

2. I think it is 6 for the Air Force. I have yet to meet any JAG that commissioned as an O-3 due to the age cut off of 35, but I guess it is possible to thread that needle.

3. Military time counts towards Fed retirement but Fed time does not count toward Military retirement.

4. Before you take your oath of office, after you get selected, pass the bar (assuming you have not already), etc. You'll turn in a base assignment preference form but no guarantees you'll get either base from that list. And yes, you get to pick from two possible bases for your first assignment (though not any time after that in your career).

Patrick Bateman - you are linking to a restricted page on the Air Force OTS site. At least, as this civilian is being told by the website

[Rotor]

3. Military time counts towards Fed retirement but Fed time does not count toward Military retirement.

I would rephrase as "Military time can count towards Fed retirement . . ." as it's not automatic. You have to "buy back" your years of military service for them to count.

Employees hired after Sept. 30, 1982, must pay a military service credit deposit in order to receive credit for time spent on active duty. Unless the deposit is paid, this service will not be creditable toward retirement eligibility or in the calculation of CSRS or FERS retirement benefits. Interest continues to accrue until the deposit is paid or retirement is effective.

For most people it'll be 3% of the base pay you earned during your military service. The longer you serve in uniform, the more it will be (obviously).

Edit to add: http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0206/022406rp.htm

[Patrick Bateman]

Patrick Bateman - you are linking to a restricted page on the Air Force OTS site. At least, as this civilian is being told by the website

The AF OTS site is not official or anything. It's just a message board . You have to be registered in order to view the threads so I'm guessing that is the error message you got.

You can register here: http://airforceots.com/portal/modules.p ... p=new_user

Their JAG thread is pretty valuable. It is not a JAG specific site, so you get a lot of valuable information from current Air Force Os and Es in other AFSCs.

[screen_name1]

If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(1) How does military retirement work from the Reserves? Say you did active duty Air Force JAG for 4 years, then Reserves for 4, completing your initial contract, but then decided to stay in the Reserves. Can you get a military retirement that way too and "double dip" along with, say, a federal govt retirement? Is retirement from the Reserves under such a scheme feasible, or are there "up our out" type provisions that would prevent that?

(2) How much control over your daily lives do y'all have? I see 30 days of leave a year, etc, but are you actually able to take that? Is social life pretty much restricted to the base, or is it similar to being a civilian where you can pretty much take your days off, and pretty much can do whatever you want on your free time after work hours?

(3) Are wives allowed to go with you for the JASOC (I think I got that acronym right -- the JAG legal course is what I'm trying to refer to)?

(4) When do you find out about the second base assignment? How much negotiating can you do on that?

[Paichka]

If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(2) How much control over your daily lives do y'all have? I see 30 days of leave a year, etc, but are you actually able to take that? Is social life pretty much restricted to the base, or is it similar to being a civilian where you can pretty much take your days off, and pretty much can do whatever you want on your free time after work hours?

I can't answer your first question, since I'm AD, but I can answer these others.

EDIT: I am an Army officer, so my answers are specific to the Army in general and the Army JAGC in specific.

I have never had my leave requests denied. Typically leave is taken, especially when you're young and haven't built up much yet, during "block leave" times. Block leave is generally designated by the command as around Christmas and around Spring Break for the local school system. Many people choose to take two weeks off at a time during each of these periods. Once you have a good bit of leave built up, you can request odd days or weeks off throughout the year. Your approval authority is your company or battalion commander, depending on the amount of time you want off, and I've never seen someone deny leave unless you're attempting to take it during some big training exercise. If you want to take leave to avoid having to go to a yearly range qualification or the yearly trip to the gas chamber, you may get denied unless you have a really legit reason for wanting the time off (IE, family wedding or something).

Social life is not restricted to the base in my experience, though that may change depending on the base. I was stationed in Savannah, and my social life involved going to downtown Savannah and hitting the clubs. You can do whatever you want on your free time after work hours, within reason -- IE, if you want to take a trip over a weekend you DO have to get approval if its more than 200 miles from the base. When I was a young LT, I had my phone on me even during the weekends for emergencies. When I was a platoon leader, it wasn't uncommon for me to have to go pick up one of my soldiers from jail. JAG officers are unlikely to run into that problem, but there could conceivably be an emergency with a court martial or something that would require you to come in over a weekend, but that wouldn't be a common scenario.

(3) Are wives allowed to go with you for the JASOC (I think I got that acronym right -- the JAG legal course is what I'm trying to refer to)?

(4) When do you find out about the second base assignment? How much negotiating can you do on that?

You can bring spouses to the basic course. My husband won't be coming with me, but my daughter will probably. At least in the Army, they put you up in hotel-like accommodations, so you'd request one of the suites that would be more like an apartment. Those are set aside for officers coming to the course with spouses and children.

As far as your second assignment, you can do a fair bit of negotiating. When it comes time for your reassignment, you'll start talking to your branch management about what's available. Also, Army JAGC gives out a directory once a year that lists every JAG officer in the Corps and their assignment, AND when they'll be up for reassignment. That way you can flip through the directory and see when posts might be coming open that you're interested in. Then you can call assignments branch with that information and try to work the location/assignment you want. Some locations are harder to get than others (Germany, Hawaii, anything in the Military District of Washington DC) and some are easier (Fort Bragg, Fort Stewart, Fort Drum), but if you're proactive branch will usually work with you to keep you happy. If you're post deployment or post a tour in Korea, you're usually a shoe in to get the assignment that you want.

[Patrick Bateman]

If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(1) How does military retirement work from the Reserves? Say you did active duty Air Force JAG for 4 years, then Reserves for 4, completing your initial contract, but then decided to stay in the Reserves. Can you get a military retirement that way too and "double dip" along with, say, a federal govt retirement? Is retirement from the Reserves under such a scheme feasible, or are there "up our out" type provisions that would prevent that?

(2) How much control over your daily lives do y'all have? I see 30 days of leave a year, etc, but are you actually able to take that? Is social life pretty much restricted to the base, or is it similar to being a civilian where you can pretty much take your days off, and pretty much can do whatever you want on your free time after work hours?

(3) Are wives allowed to go with you for the JASOC (I think I got that acronym right -- the JAG legal course is what I'm trying to refer to)?

(4) When do you find out about the second base assignment? How much negotiating can you do on that?

You need to specify if you are looking for Air Force, Army, or Navy info on this.

[joemoviebuff]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd get some advice on my individual situation and had a couple questions. I just accepted a deferral scholarship from UVA to wait a year. My number one place to end up after law school is JAG, number two would be a prosecutor. I have no real interest in biglaw.

1. Is there something I should be doing in the interim year that could boost my chances of doing JAG?

2. I understand that the economy has led to a trickle-down effect, and people who wanted biglaw are taking all sorts of PI and other jobs when they don't land the firm gig they want. What should I be doing once I get to law school to sort of bulletproof my application against those who are only applying because they didn't get anything else?

3. I read here on TLS that while in the past the military was happy with JD's from all schools, now they are becoming more concerned with school ranking. Is there any truth to this?

Thanks for your help. This has been a valuable thread!

[Eagle]

Congrats on your acceptance! That's an awesome school.

1. My Army JAG interviewer was very impressed by my volunteer work with a public interest law firm, where I helped low-income people with landlord/tenant matters, conservatorships, etc. He seemed to think that would translate well with the legal assistance practice of a JAG.

2. Try to do the same things the biglaw hopefuls are doing such as getting good grades/joining law review and moot court. I can count on one hand the number of students who interviewed for Army and Navy JAG at my Tier 2 left-leaning West Coast law school. I'm assuming its different at schools in different regions throughout the country, but I still doubt there will be a flood of people seeking to interview with JAG.

3. From the Army JAG standpoint, it seems that most DA selectees are from T2 and T3 law schools with a few from T1 and T4 schools.

[screen_name1]

Information for any branch related to my questions above would be appreciated, but I'm thinking Air Force most likely.

[Patrick Bateman]

If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(1) How does military retirement work from the Reserves? Say you did active duty Air Force JAG for 4 years, then Reserves for 4, completing your initial contract, but then decided to stay in the Reserves. Can you get a military retirement that way too and "double dip" along with, say, a federal govt retirement? Is retirement from the Reserves under such a scheme feasible, or are there "up our out" type provisions that would prevent that?

(2) How much control over your daily lives do y'all have? I see 30 days of leave a year, etc, but are you actually able to take that? Is social life pretty much restricted to the base, or is it similar to being a civilian where you can pretty much take your days off, and pretty much can do whatever you want on your free time after work hours?

(3) Are wives allowed to go with you for the JASOC (I think I got that acronym right -- the JAG legal course is what I'm trying to refer to)?

(4) When do you find out about the second base assignment? How much negotiating can you do on that?

For Air Force JAG:

2. The short answer is that your time is your own once the duty day is over. Depending on your assignment, your duty day may be 0730-0430, M-F, or it may be a 60+ hour a week Charlie Foxtrot. The two base legal offices I have been a part of have encouraged their JAGs to take their Leave days. It looks bad on your leadership if you are PCSing to a new base with 30+ days of accrued leave. At my current base, we schedule proposed leave around known court dates and when other people in my divison are taking off. For all of my leave requests since entering active duty, I've only had to reschedule one of them, and that was only by a day.

3. Yes, but she will be living in a modestly sized hotel room and you'll be gone 0730-0430. You'll have a few days at Eglin AFB (FL) and a week in DC. When I was at JASOC, no spouses lived together but they did frequently visit on weekends.

4. Most find out about their second assignment in fall of their second year. Almost everyone will PCS during the summer, so those lists come out in the fall/winter beforehand. You submit a dream sheet to JAX with all the bases you want - that is the extent of negotitations for most. This is a very fluid thing; people retire, seperate, and deploy, the openings shift around quite a bit.

[malxneal]

[quote="Patrick Bateman"][quote="screen_name1"]If it is three equal payment, calculated at the start, that's pretty sweet. A few more questions:

(1) How does military retirement work from the Reserves? Say you did active duty Air Force JAG for 4 years, then Reserves for 4, completing your initial contract, but then decided to stay in the Reserves. Can you get a military retirement that way too and "double dip" along with, say, a federal govt retirement? Is retirement from the Reserves under such a scheme feasible, or are there "up our out" type provisions that would prevent that?



For a reserve retirement, you would have to have at least 20 "good" reserve years which would include all of your reserve and active time served, but once you reach 20 years you still don't collect until age 65! For an ACTIVE retirement, you collect immediately after retirement, but in this case your reserve time would not count, only your 4 years of active duty plus 16 more years. Although you would have to wait until 65 to collect, you could absolutely get both a reserve retirement AND federal civilian service retirement.

[nfreeman]

I'm very sold on applying to the JAGs--what would you say is the best way to maximize my chances of getting in (OLCP vs. GLP)? I'm 24 and would prefer to start law school in the next two years, but would I have a significant edge if I applied to JAG with prior military experience? How much would I need for it to make a difference? Also, does the pre-JAG ROTC have the same requirements as regular ROTC? If so, wouldn't it be better to spread all that work over two years instead of one? Does it provide a monthly allowance (I assume it would be minimal)? Do you know which law schools have the most JAG-friendly LRAP programs? I'm aiming for the Top-14 and I've heard UVA is pretty good for JAG. Also, I still don't understand how LRAP complements IBR.

Overall, how are you enjoying life as a JAG? I've heard that JAGs are officers first and lawyers second, so how much of your work is "legal stuff" vs. "officer stuff"? For me, I'd prefer a job that is rewarding, interesting, and provides a balanced life over one that just earns a ton of money, and from what I've heard JAG matches that.

Having a family-friendly career is also very important to me; do you consider Air Force JAG to be family-friendly overall? I've heard the military as a whole has an incredibly high divorce rate, but I'm hopeful the Air Force is different.

Couple more q's:
--There's been a lot of talk about cuts in defense spending: how much do you think that could affect JAG career stability/benefits?
--I'm also interested in the FBI. Do you think the FBI would favor former JAGs?
--How much would knowing a foreign language determine where you're based? I speak fluent Italian and Czech, and I'm beginning to learn Farsi as well.
--Would getting a JD-MPA give me an edge at all? Would it serve any value for a JAG?

That should cover all the bases. Thanks again for your help, and I hope to join you in the JAGs someday.