Military Law Forum

[ItsDolemiteBaby]

--LinkRemoved--

I don't know for sure, but it might have something to do with the server problems they've had?

They extended the deadline for the 1L Summer Internship application citing those problems, it seems fair to assume that this extension was caused by the same problems.

Also, I worked my way through the thread throughout the semester. I have to say thanks to everyone that has contributed, there is an incredible wealth of information here.

I have a very stupid question that I didn't see asked anywhere else: Are recommendations once you get into law school handled differently then undergraduate? I ask because the Navy JAG Student Program application wants us to upload the letters of rec. I know it was usually standard procedure to waive your rights to see letters of rec in undergrad and have the writer send them directly to the interested party. Is it different in law school?

[dgsaudio]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the policy surrounding prior enlisted to get O-E status? I served for 9 years in the Army National Guard, and have been deployed to combat zones, eligible for post 9/11 GI bill, etc. I've searched for information about the policy, but to no avail. I'm interested in the AF JAG programs. Thanks for any info you can provide.

[JMD.USMC]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the policy surrounding prior enlisted to get O-E status? I served for 9 years in the Army National Guard, and have been deployed to combat zones, eligible for post 9/11 GI bill, etc. I've searched for information about the policy, but to no avail. I'm interested in the AF JAG programs. Thanks for any info you can provide.

From what I remember from my friends who were O-E's, it is required that you have served at least 4 years active duty while enlisted (I.E. complete a full enlistment), but this makes it some what complicated for reservists/national guard.
Not sure the exact amount of time you would need from the national guard, but given that you have made multiple deployments over the course of your 9 years, I would imagine you would qualify.

[the goat]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the policy surrounding prior enlisted to get O-E status? I served for 9 years in the Army National Guard, and have been deployed to combat zones, eligible for post 9/11 GI bill, etc. I've searched for information about the policy, but to no avail. I'm interested in the AF JAG programs. Thanks for any info you can provide.

Take all of this with a grain of salt because I'm a Marine reservist and I recieved this answer from my admin chief who, while usually right, is not authorative.

JMD.USMC is right that you need to have 4 years active duty service to be a mustang for pay purposes. For reservists, this means you look at how many retirement points you have. For those of you who aren't familiar with reserve retirement points, one point equals one day, or the equivilant, of active duty service. For me, even though I have about six years in the reserve, I only have somewhere around 1000 retirement points, which means I have the equivilent of less than 3 years of active duty service, and I don't qualify for the O-E status. I'm pretty sure that moving from the ANG to active AF would work in a similar fashion.

Take solace, though, because even though there's a chance you may not qualify for O-E pay, all time in service, whether active, reserve, or guard, counts toward pay, meaning anyone with prior service will start out a little farther to the right on the pay tables.

[Patrick Bateman]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the policy surrounding prior enlisted to get O-E status? I served for 9 years in the Army National Guard, and have been deployed to combat zones, eligible for post 9/11 GI bill, etc. I've searched for information about the policy, but to no avail. I'm interested in the AF JAG programs. Thanks for any info you can provide.

Take all of this with a grain of salt because I'm a Marine reservist and I recieved this answer from my admin chief who, while usually right, is not authorative.

JMD.USMC is right that you need to have 4 years active duty service to be a mustang for pay purposes. For reservists, this means you look at how many retirement points you have. For those of you who aren't familiar with reserve retirement points, one point equals one day, or the equivilant, of active duty service. For me, even though I have about six years in the reserve, I only have somewhere around 1000 retirement points, which means I have the equivilent of less than 3 years of active duty service, and I don't qualify for the O-E status. I'm pretty sure that moving from the ANG to active AF would work in a similar fashion.

Take solace, though, because even though there's a chance you may not qualify for O-E pay, all time in service, whether active, reserve, or guard, counts toward pay, meaning anyone with prior service will start out a little farther to the right on the pay tables.

Highly credited response.

One of the JAGs in my office is a former reserve Marine as well. His reserve time did not add up to 4 years, so he does not get 0-3E pay, but he is paid as an O-3 with like 6 years of service. It is a massive pay difference between me at 2 and him at 6+.

[dgsaudio]

Does anybody have any knowledge of the policy surrounding prior enlisted to get O-E status? I served for 9 years in the Army National Guard, and have been deployed to combat zones, eligible for post 9/11 GI bill, etc. I've searched for information about the policy, but to no avail. I'm interested in the AF JAG programs. Thanks for any info you can provide.

Take all of this with a grain of salt because I'm a Marine reservist and I recieved this answer from my admin chief who, while usually right, is not authorative.

JMD.USMC is right that you need to have 4 years active duty service to be a mustang for pay purposes. For reservists, this means you look at how many retirement points you have. For those of you who aren't familiar with reserve retirement points, one point equals one day, or the equivilant, of active duty service. For me, even though I have about six years in the reserve, I only have somewhere around 1000 retirement points, which means I have the equivilent of less than 3 years of active duty service, and I don't qualify for the O-E status. I'm pretty sure that moving from the ANG to active AF would work in a similar fashion.

Take solace, though, because even though there's a chance you may not qualify for O-E pay, all time in service, whether active, reserve, or guard, counts toward pay, meaning anyone with prior service will start out a little farther to the right on the pay tables.

Highly credited response.

One of the JAGs in my office is a former reserve Marine as well. His reserve time did not add up to 4 years, so he does not get 0-3E pay, but he is paid as an O-3 with like 6 years of service. It is a massive pay difference between me at 2 and him at 6+.

Good to know, thanks.

[Undead_Ed]

I have a very stupid question that I didn't see asked anywhere else: Are recommendations once you get into law school handled differently then undergraduate? I ask because the Navy JAG Student Program application wants us to upload the letters of rec. I know it was usually standard procedure to waive your rights to see letters of rec in undergrad and have the writer send them directly to the interested party. Is it different in law school?

Only one of my undergrad professors insisted that her recommendation for Law School go forward in a sealed envelope. Her point was that the law school admissions board would take it more seriously if they knew that you had never seen it; the undergrad professor could thereby be candid in his/her remarks. At any rate, I know what you are talking about.

Meanwhile, the Army, the Air Force, and the Navy all have application procedures that do not seem to allow for the unseen letter of recommendation. The Army and the Navy require you to scan and upload the letters. The Air Force requires you to hand-off your completed application with letters of recommendation to the SJA you interview with. I suppose in the last instance you could hand the SJA a sealed envelope, which he/she would later open. But that would likely be a bad idea because (1) you don't know what the recommender wrote--why chance it in this job market? and (2) the fact that a letter was "unseen" would probably not matter anyway. Instead, you should just get the letters from your recommender without the sealed envelope. I have never had a professor or anyone else insist on the unseen letter since being in law school.

But I think there is also a take-away from the way that the services handle recommendations. I think they figure that most applicants can find three random people to recommend them. But I think that the letters that would be most persuasive are those from experienced and qualified people who could describe things you actually did and comment on your performance doing those things. Along these lines, more experienced people and more distinguished or lawyerly things described about you will probably lead to a better letter of recommendation. All of this, however, is the opinion of a 3L JAG Applicant with no job.

As long as we are talking about letters of recommendation, I was told two interesting things by Army and Air Force JAGs (about which I will offer no opinion apart from saying they are interesting):

1. Army JAG: "A letter of recommendation from a JAG, no matter what rank, would be good to show you would fit in."
2. AF JAG: Referring to line officers, "If a letter of recommendation is from a Captain (O-3) or below, I wouldn't even bother."

Cheers,
Ed

[TBJAG]

I only applied to the AF so I can't speak for how all branches want you to handle LORs. In my opinion you should never, ever, ever submit an LOR sight unseen in a JAG application unless specifically told to do so.

First, it is just too risky; you want to know what has been written. I know of one guy who opened an LOR to find that it started with, "While I do not know Jim very well . . ." That is not the kind of suprise you want in your packet.

Second, you can ask for more LORs than you actually need, and then choose the best ones. I got six LORs; 5 were really good, the 6th contained innacurate information and was only so-so. It will be impossible to make that judgment call sight unseen.

Edit: Third, I had to "build" my packet once I got to the AFB. I was given a brown folder, instructions, and a two-hole punch and was told to put my application docs in the correct order and on the correct side of the folder. I wouldn't have had any choice but to open a sealed LOR. But, I don't know if that is typical for the AF, or just the base I interviewed at.

I have no opinion on the strength of an LOR from an Army JAG. However, I wouldn't necessarily turn away an LOR from an O-3 AF line officer. Most AF officers pin on O-3 at the 4 year mark and aren't eligible for O-4 for several years. I would think that an LOR from a senior captain who knew you well enough to comment on your potential as a military officer might carry some weight. I would, however, have a JO put in what their AFSC is and how many years TIS they have. It's not that hard to find a professor who will write what a great job you did in civpro; it's a little harder to find someone who can comment on your potential as an officer. Food for thought.

[ItsDolemiteBaby]

Thanks guys. Very helpful information. I'm glad I was just off on what protocol was for those types of things in law school.

Anyhow, thanks to the information in their thread, I've been bringing together the parts of my packages and I'll be ready to submit for next years boards (Navy) starting in August. I'll also be putting in for the OYCP for the AF in February.

Who else out there is getting ready for next year's cycle?

[Rocky Estoppel]

Thanks guys. Very helpful information. I'm glad I was just off on what protocol was for those types of things in law school.

Anyhow, thanks to the information in their thread, I've been bringing together the parts of my packages and I'll be ready to submit for next years boards (Navy) starting in August. I'll also be putting in for the OYCP for the AF in February.

Who else out there is getting ready for next year's cycle?

I'll be applying to Navy, AF, and Army for next cycle. I've been hitting the gym this semester to get into shape and lose some weight that I need to lose to meet weight limits for the military (not too much). I've been running and getting my cardio up to a respectable level too. I have my preferences for service but I see the pros and cons of each service and I am certainly open to possibilities. I'm not applying to USMC because I don't meet the age requirement. At this point, I don't see myself doing anything else with my law degree.

I'm slowly getting stuff together for packages to all 3 services. I've got LORs coming in and I'm starting to make checklists of things I need to accomplish before certain dates. Good Luck!

[BigFatPanda]

Hi guys, a general question: I understand that in the civilian world, if a federal employee from a first federal agency at a certain GS level X is transfer to a second federal agency, the second federal agency takes into consideration the years of service the employee had already incurred and does its best to match the GS level X. What happens if a civilian federal employee gets an appointment to the military? How will the military factor in one's prior civilian federal service? In term of pay rate?

Further, for the three mile run in 18 minutes, does the run contain any obstacle course or are we just looking at flat terrain? Thanks.

[Rocky Estoppel]

Hi guys, a general question: I understand that in the civilian world, if a federal employee from a first federal agency at a certain GS level X is transfer to a second federal agency, the second federal agency takes into consideration the years of service the employee had already incurred and does its best to match the GS level X. What happens if a civilian federal employee gets an appointment to the military? How will the military factor in one's prior civilian federal service? In term of pay rate?

Further, for the three mile run in 18 minutes, does the run contain any obstacle course or are we just looking at flat terrain? Thanks.

I can't answer your first question but as a former Marine I can tell you that the run will be just a straight run. No obstacle course involved. It's hard enough to run 3 miles in 18 minutes, if someone could run through an obstacle course while doing it, more power to them and they are a badass.

Though the terrain might not be totally flat, it just depends on where they decide to set up the 3 mile markers. They do try to make it as flat as possible but you might encounter small up and downward slopes. Usually there is either a turn around or a lap where you have to turn which can slow you down. Hope that helps.

[ItsDolemiteBaby]

Slightly off-topic/on-topic thing. I've been a runner for years (3 hr marathoner), and I've been a track coach for a little while, so I feel comfortable making this recommendation.

If you are serious about getting good at running, make sure you have the appropriate equipment. Most important is a good quality pair of professionally fitted running shoes. Bad shoes can lead to injury, discomfort and takes all the fun out of running.

Further, I can't recommend the Nike+ system enough. Plug it into your Ipod and run. I bought a little pouch for $4 that lets me take it on runs with my Mizuno marathon shoes. I love the Nike+ software and the run tracking provides for some excellent motivation. Also, there are several apps for Iphones that work off of GPS that are also phenominal. I think the most popular is RunTracker or some such thing. I can't vouch for the quality personally, but a few guys in my running club swear by it.

I may not have a lot of first hand experience in the military, but I can talk running all day. PM me if you need anything.

[Undead_Ed]

If you are serious about getting good at running, make sure you have the appropriate equipment. Most important is a good quality pair of professionally fitted running shoes. Bad shoes can lead to injury, discomfort and takes all the fun out of running.

I'm intrigued. I have had to become my own advocate when it comes to running shoes. In my experience, shoe sales reps do not know what they are talking about. Where would you go to get professionally fitted?

[ItsDolemiteBaby]

Stick with the small running/fitness stores. If there are local running clubs they will either advertise or meet up at the better stores. Don't even bother with the Big Box stores, like Dick's. It's exceptionally rare that the clerks have any idea what shoes are appropriate for your foot and stride. (Though my local Dick's Sporting Goods employs a friend of mine that knows his stuff). The right store will have you run to see how you stride and how you land on your feet. After that they'll have you try on shoes and have you both walk and run in them. At which point you can get a feel for which shoe you prefer.

By way of example here are links to a couple excellent running stores in areas that I have lived:

Indiana Running Company - Bloomington, IN
http://www.inrunco.com/

Run, Walk, Live - South Bend, IN and some stores in MD
http://www.runwalklive.com/

I've also had some success at Road Runner Sports stores in Illinois and Iowa.

The places that are local and that the local running community supports are your best bets. To find those stores do a Google search for running clubs in your locale. Check their site or e-mail them to ask for a recommendation. If there are no running clubs check the local road race (5K's, 10K's and marathons) to see who their sponsors are. The local running shops usually sponsor the races.

Failing all of the above you can just do a plain Google search for "your city" running store.

Hope that helps!

PS. Runner's World has some ok training programs that are very good for beginners. If you're looking to get real hard core; you can go to the workout facility at your university and most have personal trainers. They can set you up with a more complex program for a small fee.

[ItsDolemiteBaby]

I have another random question, how big of a boost (if we want to use the points analogy from earlier) would one receive for knowledge of a language.

Now, just to clarify, I'm not talking Farsi or a language that would be immediately useful in the field. I'm talking a language like Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian.

My thinking is that the Navy (in my case) would want to have a wide variety of languages on hand, because one never knows where the next conflict will come. (Think Kosovo or Bosnia conflicts). Thus, I would get some points for knowing that language, just as someone that speaks say Hindii or Korean would.

I ask because I can take some credits this summer (along with my summer job) and have it count towards my degree. I used to speak Croatian when I was little dijete, but I've lost most of it since then. In a summer language institute I could probably get up back up to high conversational (though admittedly not fluent). Think it would be worth it? Beyond the JAG bonus, it would also be very enriching for me personally as I could then share the language with my son.

Thoughts?

Edit: I just saw that Serbo-Croatian (my language) is a Strategic Stronghold Language. So, I see that I'd be eligible for a bonus with my pay depending on how I test. Of course, that would mean I'd have to make myself available for any and all situations that might call for my language skills. Which is something I'd be willing to do.

Question remains on how much that helps my application.

[aed9]

Does anyone know how the Navy and Army notify applicants about if they've been selected for summer internships?

I read somewhere in this thread that Army will send an email informing people that the list is on the website, but I wasn't sure if that was just for active duty or for internships as well.

[Cole S. Law]

I don't think language proficiency would provide much (if any) boost for JAG. It wouldn't be of much use. You could probably get a huge bonus as a Army translator, however.

[the goat]

Does anyone know how the Navy and Army notify applicants about if they've been selected for summer internships?

I read somewhere in this thread that Army will send an email informing people that the list is on the website, but I wasn't sure if that was just for active duty or for internships as well.

I don't know if it's still the same, but, in the spring of 2008, I was notified of selection for the Army summer internship by phone by my FSO. Results were posted several days after that. I hope this helps.

[scrranger11]

Hi all-- this Q goes out to AF JAGs such as Bateman. I want an opportunity to earn jump-wings while I'm in the AFJAGC. How can I do it?

As an addendum-- As I understand it, the AF does have limited billets for the Army's jump school in Georgia, but they don't usually (i.e. rarely) go to JAGs. I've also heard that there is a possibility I could earn my wings if I was an lecturer at the Academy, but that would require re-upping at least once (and prob. twice).

And some additional questions-- do the AF PJ's have a JAG billet? If so, is there a way to request that assignment? Would that request be similar to the Army JAGs who are assigned to the Airborne and Air Assault? Would receipt of that assignment mean having to go through the special forces training?

TYIA!

[Cole S. Law]

Hi all-- this Q goes out to AF JAGs such as Bateman. I want an opportunity to earn jump-wings while I'm in the AFJAGC. How can I do it?

As an addendum-- As I understand it, the AF does have limited billets for the Army's jump school in Georgia, but they don't usually (i.e. rarely) go to JAGs. I've also heard that there is a possibility I could earn my wings if I was an lecturer at the Academy, but that would require re-upping at least once (and prob. twice).

And some additional questions-- do the AF PJ's have a JAG billet? If so, is there a way to request that assignment? Would that request be similar to the Army JAGs who are assigned to the Airborne and Air Assault? Would receipt of that assignment mean having to go through the special forces training?

TYIA!

I can't think of any situation where a pararescue mission would call for a lawyer to tag along. There would be no need to have SF training even if you are attached to a pararescue unit. A specialized unit like that will likely utlize the JAG of it's parent unit. If you really want to get your wings, you can get permission from your unit to just show up at Benning the day of an airborne school start and sign up for standby for a spot in school. I know 10+ people who have done this and they all got a spot.

[scrranger11]

Hi all-- this Q goes out to AF JAGs such as Bateman. I want an opportunity to earn jump-wings while I'm in the AFJAGC. How can I do it?

As an addendum-- As I understand it, the AF does have limited billets for the Army's jump school in Georgia, but they don't usually (i.e. rarely) go to JAGs. I've also heard that there is a possibility I could earn my wings if I was an lecturer at the Academy, but that would require re-upping at least once (and prob. twice).

And some additional questions-- do the AF PJ's have a JAG billet? If so, is there a way to request that assignment? Would that request be similar to the Army JAGs who are assigned to the Airborne and Air Assault? Would receipt of that assignment mean having to go through the special forces training?

TYIA!

I can't think of any situation where a pararescue mission would call for a lawyer to tag along. There would be no need to have SF training even if you are attached to a pararescue unit. A specialized unit like that will likely utlize the JAG of it's parent unit. If you really want to get your wings, you can get permission from your unit to just show up at Benning the day of an airborne school start and sign up for standby for a spot in school. I know 10+ people who have done this and they all got a spot.

Re: The PJ's-- that's what I figured, but I just wanted to be sure. I thought there was a possibility it would be similar to the Airborne/Air Assault billets in the Army JAG (where the JAGs go through special training to be attached to the Airborne/Air Assault units) see: http://www.armystrongstories.com/blogge ... ttesville/

Re: The billets at the jump school-- that's a lot more encouraging than what I've been told by other AF JAGs about getting into jump school. Do you know if I would be required to burn personal leave time in both going to and going through the training? All the AFJAGs I spoke with said that even if I did go, I'd have to burn the 3+ weeks of personal leave. It's not really a problem, but, like anyone else, I'd like to have my leave and use it, too!

[helfer snooterbagon]

Do you know if I would be required to burn personal leave time in both going to and going through the training? All the AFJAGs I spoke with said that even if I did go, I'd have to burn the 3+ weeks of personal leave. It's not really a problem, but, like anyone else, I'd like to have my leave and use it, too!

You are asking some pretty specific questions here. So specific that they may depend on what command you are attached to. From the Navy side, commands would sometimes offer no cost orders to attend these sorts of things. You are not burning leave, but you are not getting any of the allowances that you typically get while TAD/TDY.

[aed9]

Does anyone know how the Navy and Army notify applicants about if they've been selected for summer internships?

I read somewhere in this thread that Army will send an email informing people that the list is on the website, but I wasn't sure if that was just for active duty or for internships as well.

I don't know if it's still the same, but, in the spring of 2008, I was notified of selection for the Army summer internship by phone by my FSO. Results were posted several days after that. I hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. I still haven't heard from the Army (not surprising considering they said it would probably take 45 days for them to make decisions), but today I learned I was selected for the Navy JAGC summer internship! I'm really excited about this opportunity.

[Cole S. Law]

If your unit is cool, they will let you take a TDY (temporary duty not charged as leave) to go to airborne school. Some might make you use leave. Get to know your S1 guys. They will sometimes "lose" your leave paperwork if they like you. Then you don't get charged.

The easiest route would be to go army and request airborne. As long as you meet the requirements, there's a good chance you'll get it.