Military Law Forum

[Rambo152]

Seems like everyone looks over the Coast Guard? Perhaps this means much fewer applicants . . . I haven't heard it refereed to much at all on here...

https://www.gocoastguard.com/sites/defa ... 14_1_0.pdf

I've read up on it, including the link you attached. Very few applicants but about 9-10 accepted annually. The trends are actually published on that pdf (pg98). FYs 2014-15 actually turned over a 15% and 20% acceptance rate, respectively.

I've worked with Coasties before during the Deepwater Horizon cleanup and I have some good friends that are CG officers. The only reason I didn't apply before was because of my own hubris and because I wanted to stay in the Air Force. I've been in the Air Force Reserve for almost 8 years and I assumed that since my stats were respectable and I did well during my AFJAG internship, that I would be a shoe-in. I chalked my previous rejections up to a matter of timing. Needless to say, I was wrong. In retrospect, I probably should have applied to other branches sooner, but its not the end of the world for me.

The CG deadlines are in August and November. Each has a projected commission date of a year from now. Seems like it fits into my timeline pretty well. I'll probably post later as I go through the process to shed some light for future applicants.

[los blancos]

Count me in as potentially interested in CG as well - would love to hear if anyone has any input as to how it compares with Navy re practice, locations, deployments, exit opps, etc.

[Rambo152]

Count me in as potentially interested in CG as well - would love to hear if anyone has any input as to how it compares with Navy re practice, locations, deployments, exit opps, etc.

CG is substantially more limited in their locations of practice, especially for first duty station. It also differs from all other branches in that there is the prospect of non-legal assignments down the road.

"Your first duty station assignment will be to a legal office in one of the Coast Guard’s District Offices (Boston, Miami, New Orleans, Cleveland, Seattle, Juneau, or Honolulu); Atlantic Area (Norfolk, VA) and Pacific Area (Alameda, CA); Legal Service Command & Detachment (Norfolk, VA or Alameda, CA); the Coast Guard Academy (New London, CT); or in Coast Guard Headquarters (Washington, DC). Subsequent legal assignments may be to one of these offices or to one of the smaller field legal offices located throughout the Coast Guard. Subsequent non-legal assignments may be throughout the Coast Guard."
See, http://www.uscg.mil/legal/recruit/DCL_FAQ.asp

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,
Would those selected by the AF April Board be willing to post stats for future reference?

I wouldn't read too much into because they take a diverse group of candidates. Nevertheless, here you go: T1, top 1/3, law review, Navy JAG/USDOJ/USAO internships.

[Patrick Bateman]

The reasoning, as explained to me, is that it is easier on the AUSA's for Jags to take care of crimes that occur on base, and also there might be some jurisdictional issues because I believe military bases are considered sovereign?? Can't guarantee the reasoning either way.

I don't know why this was originally started, but my guess is that it allows AUSAs not to have to deal with lower level crimes while giving good experience to young JAGs. If a civilian commits a serious crime on base, it's much more likely an AUSA would take over. We have had that happen a few times. There's no reason a JAG has to do it that I am aware of.

It's not guaranteed you'll get an opportunity for this, but there's a good chance. I missed out, because the local AUSA only gives our base so many slots. Timing didn't work out for me to get be a SAUSA, but a couple other JAGs in the office did get a chance.

Certainly it is good experience for future AUSA possibilities, but it's not the highest level stuff either. You might show up to court, say 10 words, and go home, depending on what's going on.

I was an SAUSA out of my first assignment and this is consistent with my experience. My case load, save maybe 2, was civilian dependents shoplifting from the commissary/BX or getting DUIs. I did not litigate a single case - all either plead or were dismissed pursuant to a pre-trial diversion agreement. I know some of my peers who actually litigated a case to verdict in magistrate court but it is not common.

Good experience regardless. DOJ liked that I had that experience, as limited as it was, when I went through the interview progress.

[Rotor]

Law firms have no use for a clearance and the vast majority of Federal jobs don't either. Your DOD clearance does not translate to other agencies, so the marketability to DHS, DOJ, DOS, and the like is reduced - they like knowing you survived the clearance process once and therefore don't have show stoppers in your background, and it can help smooth a temporary clearance, but you will still have to undergo a full investigation by their security people.

I generally agree with PB's sentiments about having a TS not being a big boost, but I have a couple of differences opinion in this paragraph.

First, most of the major agencies have signed Agency Agreements with DOD which says that DOD will provide the security program services for the agency. http://www.dss.mil/isp/agency_agree.html and the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 requires agencies to reciprocate recognition of clearances granted by other agencies. The National Industrial Security Program Operating Manual (NISPOM, the security clearance bible) also has language permitting the use of investigations by other agencies-- and OPM requires they use other agency investigations unless there's been a 2 year break in service (to comply with the IRTPA and to save money). I don't say this to quibble, but only so that the OP doesn't feel constrained in which agencies to shoot for. (Of course certain special programs will only be effective within an individual agency).

Second, "Law firms have no use for a clearance" is a bit too strong a statement. My practice area involves, in part, investigations related to technical data owned or held by our government contractor clients. I missed out on being involved in a matter because my TS had lapsed. I do agree that except for a few niche firms or practice groups, law firms will not have a facility security clearance and thus, no security manager to manage your clearance in JPAS. Had I been involved in the TS matter, I would have been brought in under our client's program.

Again, I agree that a clearance will not be a boost like it would be to work directly for a contractor, but there are some cases where it could be helpful.

[killingnoise]

Incoming college freshman Poli-Sci major w/ no JROTC or ROTC experience.

Very interested in pursuing a Law Degree, even more interested now that I've learned about the JAG Corps about pursuing a career as a JAG Officer. I've been interested in the military but wasn't aware of this option - now I'm very excited about the prospects.

Since I am aware early, before going into my first year of college, what are my long term best options for funding college & furthering myself to the highest degree? Scholarship prospects, Fed funding etc.

Currently most interested in ARMY JAG; cannot swim very well & don't like the feel of the USMC Program's hoorah attitude.

[S. Goodman]

... don't like the feel of the USMC Program's hoorah attitude.

I was in the Marines for four years before law school.

I enlisted when I was 17 with a parental signature, I earned my bachelors degree while on active duty. Got out of the Marines in November 2012, began law school August 2013. Gi Bill is paying for all of my law school tuition plus $1300 a month for living expenses. I'm a rising 3L and have been professionally Reccomended for the Navy Jag Corps on my first application. The military is my family and that is the only job I've ever wanted.

My advice ... do what I did. The military will cover your college tuition without touching your Gi Bill while you're on active duty, so undergrad is free. The Gi Bill covers law school so that is free. Prior service shows the jag accessions board that you want to be in jag because you care about the service and your country, and not about landing yourself a law job in a tough legal market. Prior enlisted experience will likely make you a better officer as well. Moreover, if you get into jag you'll be paid much more for being prior enlisted and be four years closer to retirement than your peers.

If you really want to serve your country then what I did is a great path, for a multitude of reasons. But if your motivations are truly more disingenuous or malevolent then try another route. There are certainly many roads to get you to the jag corps. The other more common way is to finish undergrad, presumably with student loans. Get into law school, more loans. And apply for jag then and hopefully get it. You can't apply for Army Jag until you're a 3L. If you are at a great law school with great grades you'll have a better shot at getting it. Prior service isn't a guarantee you'll get in but I really believe it gives you a huge leg up on your peers.

You don't lose any time by doing your degree while on active duty, but you do lose the undergrad "college lifestyle." Corps and country are all that ever mattered to me so giving the traditional undergrad experience up wasn't a big deal for me. Maybe it is for you.

That's my advice, just my opinion . . .

[killingnoise]

... don't like the feel of the USMC Program's hoorah attitude.

I was in the Marines for four years before law school.

I enlisted when I was 17 with a parental signature, I earned my bachelors degree while on active duty. Got out of the Marines in November 2012, began law school August 2013. Gi Bill is paying for all of my law school tuition plus $1300 a month for living expenses. I'm a rising 3L and have been professionally Reccomended for the Navy Jag Corps on my first application. The military is my family and that is the only job I've ever wanted.

My advice ... do what I did. The military will cover your college tuition without touching your Gi Bill while you're on active duty, so undergrad is free. The Gi Bill covers law school so that is free. Prior service shows the jag accessions board that you want to be in jag because you care about the service and your country, and not about landing yourself a law job in a tough legal market. Prior enlisted experience will likely make you a better officer as well. Moreover, if you get into jag you'll be paid much more for being prior enlisted and be four years closer to retirement than your peers.

If you really want to serve your country then what I did is a great path, for a multitude of reasons. But if your motivations are truly more disingenuous or malevolent then try another route. There are certainly many roads to get you to the jag corps. The other more common way is to finish undergrad, presumably with student loans. Get into law school, more loans. And apply for jag then and hopefully get it. You can't apply for Army Jag until you're a 3L. If you are at a great law school with great grades you'll have a better shot at getting it. Prior service isn't a guarantee you'll get in but I really believe it gives you a huge leg up on your peers.

You don't lose any time by doing your degree while on active duty, but you do lose the undergrad "college lifestyle." Corps and country are all that ever mattered to me so giving the traditional undergrad experience up wasn't a big deal for me. Maybe it is for you.

That's my advice, just my opinion . . .

I've already committed and accepted admission to my undergrad college so I don't think active duty is an option. I'm also not sure I'd be ready yet.

What is my best option during or after my BA? I think the JAG is for me, since it has the physical & psychological discipline that I'd need to serve my country, & the mentality that I'm most accustomed to & feel will help me be the best officer I can be.

[S. Goodman]

I've already committed and accepted admission to my undergrad college so I don't think active duty is an option. I'm also not sure I'd be ready yet.

What is my best option during or after my BA? I think the JAG is for me, since it has the physical & psychological discipline that I'd need to serve my country, & the mentality that I'm most accustomed to & feel will help me be the best officer I can be.

The only thing you can do is get the best grades in undergrad you can, and when it comes time to take the LSAT, study hard for it and knock it out of the park. Then get into the best law school you can with the best scholarship opportunities, unless money isn't an issue for you. Volunteer throughout undergrad to demonstrate you have a strong interest in public service. Then get into law school, do well 1L year, then apply to jag . . . then pray.

That's pretty much it. They look at the "whole person concept." So just try to be a great person by standing out from your peers and doing great things.

But be realistic, acceptance rates are low and likely will remain that way for awhile. So have a back up plan. Which means don't go to law school if you just want to be a jag in the military. You go to law school because you really want to be a lawyer, with ideal law jobs on mind. The reality is you might get stuck doing some other type of law job because you can't get jag or you don't qualify for it.

Again, in my opinion, the single most unique thing that makes you stand out on a jag application board for any of the service branches is being prior military. There are so few veterans in law school, so few in mine (T25) that we don't even have enough for a student organization for veterans in law.

Applying to any job is about standing out from the crowd. So do it with your caliber of school, and with your grades and with your accomplishments. It is really as simple as that.

Even with great credentials you're still going to need a dash of luck to get jag. Read this forum and my "Navy Jag Student Program" forum. You'll see tons of great and over qualified applicants not getting selected board after board. That is the reality of jag.

[abogadesq]

After rotating through the different practice areas, do JAG officers get to choose a practice area to specialize in or does the Air Force/Army/Navy designate you to practice area?

[S. Goodman]

After rotating through the different practice areas, do JAG officers get to choose a practice area to specialize in or does the Air Force/Army/Navy designate you to practice area?

You are assigned your job in almost all circumstances, so no specialization. I say almost all because it seems like there is always exceptions and I don't want to exclude those that I may be unaware of. Although as far as I understand it you can get a LLM at some point on the military's dime, so that surely adds some degree of specialization.

The needs of the service are always going to trump your needs/preferences, but I'm sure you can request to be placed in your desired type of job each time you PCS. You may get a base that needs someone to fill that position, you may not. Hardly a "specialization" at all by civilian law practice terms. I think jags are more of generalists, who need to be familiar and proficient in every facet of being a jag, but specialize in nothing.

Anyon who knows any better I please chime in.

[howell]

After rotating through the different practice areas, do JAG officers get to choose a practice area to specialize in or does the Air Force/Army/Navy designate you to practice area?

I can answer (somewhat) for the Air Force.

You can specialize . . . for awhile. The Air Force tries to develop every JAG to be an SJA (i.e., the leader of a legal office at a base, numbered AF, MAJCOM, or other headquarters). So maybe you get to do military justice for awhile, but then you'll have to go be a Deputy SJA or work at a NAF, or something fairly unrelated. Maybe you'll get an LLM and then specialize in that area for 3-5 years, but then you'll be moved on to something else to try to round you out.

Some JAGs are willing and able (and luck plays a role) to go down one track a lot longer than other people. This can possibly cause issues with promotion to Lt Col or, more likely, to Col. If you are really great at contracts but only know contracts, you probably haven't been in too many positions to develop and, more importantly, demonstrate the skills necessary to lead a large number of attorneys and paralegals under you to accomplish a particular mission.

There are exceptions to every rule, and you will find them in the Air Force, but the overall push is to get you to the point where you can lead many other attorneys in advising command at a high level on a broad range of issues.

If you really wanted to specialize, the best option would probably be to switch over to the civilian side (with the option of staying in the Guard/Reserve).

[shintopig]

After rotating through the different practice areas, do JAG officers get to choose a practice area to specialize in or does the Air Force/Army/Navy designate you to practice area?

Few facts from my experience on opportunities for young JAs; take them as you will:

- During my AF JAG internship my commanding officer (O-3) left half-way through my internship to go down to Maxwell AFB to take further classes in government-contracting. When he returned he was the "contract-guy" for the base legal office, albeit not permanently.
- Also from my AF JAG experience, the JAs would move through the legal fields. Different officers were chief of military justice, or contract, or legal assistance, or whatever. So that would be their temporary "specialty." USN also moves their JAs through particular practice areas for at least the first 2 years.
- Another AF O-3 JA that I met (an alum from my law school) at an "informational interview" was another government contracting specialist. He defended the AF in bid protests in front of the GAO (If I remember my gov't contracts correctly). That was his specialty and also current assignment. I'd assume though he may still be expected at the end of that assignment to do something else.
- AF, AR & USN officers as far as I know have opportunities to go get their LLM after their initial 4-year requirement. So if they want to work up to O-4 I believe they can start to specialize via further education. A large amount of 0-4s and beyond that I've interacted with or know of have some degree beyond just B.A./B.S. & J.D. May be at civilian universities or military colleges.
- I remember from my USN interview the 0-6 (who had an LLM, among other degrees) had done a lot of Operations Law (Ops. Law) in his time, that was a "specialty" of sorts when he was the chief legal officer for a fleet.

From my experience, JAs are generalists. They can specialize in some way, but you're always expected to be able to do everything well. If you want to specialize from the get-go, civilian opportunities I think would be better.

[abogadesq]

If you really wanted to specialize, the best option would probably be to switch over to the civilian side (with the option of staying in the Guard/Reserve).

How hard is it to direct commission into the Army/Air national guard or reserve? Are those positions mostly for priors and closed for civies? I may have specialized in something in the civilian world, but would still like to serve in some capacity as legal counsel.

[howell]

If you really wanted to specialize, the best option would probably be to switch over to the civilian side (with the option of staying in the Guard/Reserve).

How hard is it to direct commission into the Army/Air national guard or reserve? Are those positions mostly for priors and closed for civies? I may have specialized in something in the civilian world, but would still like to serve in some capacity as legal counsel.

I really don't know the odds of doing something like this. I see people enter the Guard/Reserves both with and without prior military experience. I think it's more difficult for someone straight out of law school, though. Most that enter the Guard/Reserves without military experience seem to have good civilian experience.

Also know that it can be challenge to one's normal life to do this during the initial training. In the AF, you would need to go to both a 5 week and a 9 week school before you could really start working. In some cases, you would then need a 30-60 day seasoning tour at a base legal office. Certainly people do this, but it's not always easy.

[Fauken]

Hello! I am an 0L who has been reading this forum off and on for a while now. I am mostly interested in Army JAG, and I want to start making moves to make myself a good candidate, along with making sure that I am on the right track. To give a small introduction, I am a junior electrical engineering major, and I'm planning to minor in physics. I plan to take the LSAT in 2016, so I'll begin studying this summer. I have a 3.1 GPA (this semester was bad, I don't anticipate it staying this low for long), I am an ambassador for my department and a meeting coordinator for a club that promotes research in engineering. I did two years of Teen Court in high school where we carried out the sentencing phase of juveniles who committed Class C misdemeanors: we gave them community service hours instead of jail time (would the JAG board even care about what I did in high school?). Advice and a critique would be welcome! Thank you!

[S. Goodman]

Hello! I am an 0L who has been reading this forum off and on for a while now. I am mostly interested in Army JAG, and I want to start making moves to make myself a good candidate, along with making sure that I am on the right track. To give a small introduction, I am a junior electrical engineering major, and I'm planning to minor in physics. I plan to take the LSAT in 2016, so I'll begin studying this summer. I have a 3.1 GPA (this semester was bad, I don't anticipate it staying this low for long), I am an ambassador for my department and a meeting coordinator for a club that promotes research in engineering. I did two years of Teen Court in high school where we carried out the sentencing phase of juveniles who committed Class C misdemeanors: we gave them community service hours instead of jail time (would the JAG board even care about what I did in high school?). Advice and a critique would be welcome! Thank you!

I'm pretty sure that this forum is only for people currently in law school, but nevertheless I will answer your question. Someone in undergrad just asked this same question a few questions ago. (See above), but I'll re-post it again for you.

...

What is my best option during or after my BA? ...

The only thing you can do is get the best grades in undergrad you can, and when it comes time to take the LSAT, study hard for it and knock it out of the park. Then get into the best law school you can with the best scholarship opportunities, unless money isn't an issue for you. Volunteer throughout undergrad to demonstrate you have a strong interest in public service. Then get into law school, do well 1L year, then apply to jag . . . then pray.

That's pretty much it. They look at the "whole person concept." So just try to be a great person by standing out from your peers and doing great things.

But be realistic, acceptance rates are low and likely will remain that way for awhile. So have a back up plan. Which means don't go to law school if you just want to be a jag in the military. You go to law school because you really want to be a lawyer, with ideal law jobs on mind. The reality is you might get stuck doing some other type of law job because you can't get jag or you don't qualify for it.

Again, in my opinion, the single most unique thing that makes you stand out on a jag application board for any of the service branches is being prior military. There are so few veterans in law school, so few in mine (T25) that we don't even have enough for a student organization for veterans in law.

Applying to any job is about standing out from the crowd. So do it with your caliber of school, and with your grades and with your accomplishments. It is really as simple as that.

Even with great credentials you're still going to need a dash of luck to get jag. Read this forum and my "Navy Jag Student Program" forum (located in the "forum for law school students thread"). You'll see tons of great and over qualified applicants not getting selected board after board. That is the reality of jag.

[lumberjack12]

Hello! I am an 0L who has been reading this forum off and on for a while now. I am mostly interested in Army JAG, and I want to start making moves to make myself a good candidate, along with making sure that I am on the right track. To give a small introduction, I am a junior electrical engineering major, and I'm planning to minor in physics. I plan to take the LSAT in 2016, so I'll begin studying this summer. I have a 3.1 GPA (this semester was bad, I don't anticipate it staying this low for long), I am an ambassador for my department and a meeting coordinator for a club that promotes research in engineering. I did two years of Teen Court in high school where we carried out the sentencing phase of juveniles who committed Class C misdemeanors: we gave them community service hours instead of jail time (would the JAG board even care about what I did in high school?). Advice and a critique would be welcome! Thank you!

I've been following this forum for a long time and the one thing that is clear is that there is no single path into any JAGC. Finish your degree with as high of a GPA as possible, not to get into a JAGC, but to get into a good law school (unfortunately schools care about rankings and those rankings are based on GPAs irrespective of difficulty of major). Luckily for you the LSAT score is what matters the most; knock it out of the park and you'll be just fine.

Your extra-curriculars look solid. I talked about my leadership experience going back to high school in all of my interviews and I believe it helped. Going forwards just keep taking roles where you stand out as a leader. During your summers look into the different military internship opportunities. Also, if you end up at a school next to a base (no matter the branch), work to become an intern during the school year. Don't worry about not having prior service, just do well in LS--grades, Law Review, clinical experience.

Good luck! This forum is for all but feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

[ShockTop]

I think the general advice of "be the best you can be" is accurate. Try to graduate undergrad with as high of a GPA as you can. When you take the LSAT, try to get the highest score that you can. When you pick a law school, pick the best one that you can. At this point, if JAG doesn't work out for some reason, at least you aren't going to be six-figures in debt for no reason.

When you're in law school, do things that will place you on the short stack of applications; intern for JAG if you can, join student organizations, volunteer, do law review/journals/moot court, etc.. When you interview, knock it out of the park--focus on the questions being asked and answer them completely. Wherever you intern (JAG included), get a letter of recommendation from your supervisors. If you intern for a military office, do your best to get to know your XO or CO so they could write letters for you if you know them well (there's also the off-chance they may be on the selection board, depending on your location). Also, hope that the economy is beneficial for you when you go to law school and are applying. When I was in law school, they took very few applicants. Obviously, this time around was radically different and they took many more applicants.

If you want to do JAG and don't get picked for the SP, find a job that interests you and helps you become a better attorney so if JAG still doesn't work out, you will still be happy. You may also need to reinterview because the interview expires after several years, if I am not mistaken. Keep applying for the DA Program until you can't anymore, provided you still want to do it.

I think this is the best advice I could offer. At your point (still in undergrad, junior year), you're three years away from even applying, so a lot can change, but the general advice, I think, will still be relevant three years from now.

[shintopig]

Hello! I am an 0L who has been reading this forum off and on for a while now. I am mostly interested in Army JAG, and I want to start making moves to make myself a good candidate, along with making sure that I am on the right track. To give a small introduction, I am a junior electrical engineering major, and I'm planning to minor in physics. I plan to take the LSAT in 2016, so I'll begin studying this summer. I have a 3.1 GPA (this semester was bad, I don't anticipate it staying this low for long), I am an ambassador for my department and a meeting coordinator for a club that promotes research in engineering. I did two years of Teen Court in high school where we carried out the sentencing phase of juveniles who committed Class C misdemeanors: we gave them community service hours instead of jail time (would the JAG board even care about what I did in high school?). Advice and a critique would be welcome! Thank you!

I'd echo what has been said. GPA yes. LSAT score yes. Leadership of course in some student organization or job is also good. High school experience wasn't asked for on the Army App when I applied last year, only college & grad school.

Try to get the Army JAG internship your 2L summer. Any JAG internship is great, and will give you a leg up on your app. My AF internship was pro-bono, not the official one. But I still did it just through the local AF Base JAG office. Call yours up. Worst case, they say no.

Otherwise continue to focus on public service work and volunteering. Not to say you can't do big law or firm internships but, public service reflects well.

Also, echoing but still really important; keep applying if you get rejected. A huge about of people don't get it their first app. Persistence is a good thing here.

Army I know is also concerned with physical fitness a good deal. JAs have opportunities for Airborne school and (rarely) Ranger school. You should focus on fitness too. I was asked about my fitness routine & any sports I participated in during my Army interview.

Also, do well on the interview. Be confident but not tense or nervous. You'll be advising high ranking officers as a JA, so they need to see your confidence and presence in the room. I always think that being honest with your answers is far better than giving the "right answer." The JAG Officer you interview with will know which is which.

And use these forums. Good luck! If you want it hard enough; you'll get it.

[Fauken]

Thank you everyone for your responses and advice! I do have another question though for a friend: what effect does dual citizenship have on the selection board? If I'm not mistaken, that disqualifies you for security clearance, but will dual citizen applicants be outright rejected or given a chance to renounce their foreign citizenship if accepted?

[coffee282]

Thank you everyone for your responses and advice! I do have another question though for a friend: what effect does dual citizenship have on the selection board? If I'm not mistaken, that disqualifies you for security clearance, but will dual citizen applicants be outright rejected or given a chance to renounce their foreign citizenship if accepted?

I hope this doesn't come across rude, but I do feel that your friend's question is better directed to the individual jag corps. Have him or her consider giving any of them a call.

[Rotor]

Thank you everyone for your responses and advice! I do have another question though for a friend: what effect does dual citizenship have on the selection board? If I'm not mistaken, that disqualifies you for security clearance, but will dual citizen applicants be outright rejected or given a chance to renounce their foreign citizenship if accepted?

i don't know the accession requirements, but I'm fairly certain your friend will be required to renounce the other citizenship(s). This has to do with the requirement for officers to hold a security clearance. Although the guidelines no longer outright prohibit dual nationals from being granted a clearance, it makes it very difficult. Thus the military doesn't want to take the risk that an officer will be found to be not clearable.

[Anonymous User]

Does the military drug test their summer interns?