Military Law

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
Patrick Bateman

Silver
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:06 pm

Backload wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:May anybody here mention how long it took for their Secret-level clearance to go through? I'm sure the answer is "it depends," but just trying to gauge the average wait time.

Does anybody know of any horror stories in which a JAG's clearance was denied? It's pretty much the only thing standing in the way of me and my first assignment -- and it's difficult not to psyche myself over all the foreign travel I've done over the years :roll:


You don’t need a clearance to commission. I know some first-term JAGs who still don’t have their clearance. OPM is very backed up.


This is correct. I arrived at my first base, post COT & JASOC, and my clearance was still working its way through. Not a big deal. And as noted above, it really takes something truly significant to note rate a secret. You know know if you had any of these issues. As an alternate plan, it seems not having a clearance is not an impediment to working within the White House these days, so you can always try that.

Having had multiple clearance levels within the DOD and two (civilian) Federal agencies, "it depends" really is going to be the answer - there is absolutely no set metric someone can quote you. Some folks will have had theirs breeze through. Others will have seen the process take an eternity. I will say that from my very limited perspective, my experiences have been worse each time over the years.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:48 pm

I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?

Backload

New
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?


No time of service is calculated by how much time you have actually served.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman

Silver
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?


You start as an O2 with >2 years experience, moving to an O3 with >2.

The whole constructive credit is just the justification on how we come in as an O2 and promote to O3 faster than the rest of the line.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:27 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?


You start as an O2 with >2 years experience, moving to an O3 with >2.

The whole constructive credit is just the justification on how we come in as an O2 and promote to O3 faster than the rest of the line.


Original anon. Could you clarify this in respect to Backload's comment? It sounds like he is saying I'd be an O2 w/ 0 years and you're saying I'd be an O2 with >2. Perhaps the answer varies by branch?

Backload

New
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?


You start as an O2 with >2 years experience, moving to an O3 with >2.

The whole constructive credit is just the justification on how we come in as an O2 and promote to O3 faster than the rest of the line.


Original anon. Could you clarify this in respect to Backload's comment? It sounds like he is saying I'd be an O2 w/ 0 years and you're saying I'd be an O2 with >2. Perhaps the answer varies by branch?



I guess his arrow is going the wrong way. But if you read the rest of his post it’s saying 0-2 years pay. You promote so quickly that you don’t really factor in O2 pay. During that time you are at training and then jag school.

The constructive credit doesn’t really count for anything but the quick promotion. Like he said, it is what they say to justify the 6 month promotion.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman

Silver
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I earned about $60,000 now in my field before entering law school (CCN), and I'm interested in JAG. I'm trying to calculate what my pay would look like starting out, but I'm a bit confused by constructive credit. I know I'd start as a 1LT with 3 years of constructive credit that don't count towards the 20 years for retirement, but do they count towards years of service in calculating pay? For instance, would I start as an O-2 with 3 years of service and then get promoted to O-3 with 3.5-4 years of service (depending on the branch)?


You start as an O2 with >2 years experience, moving to an O3 with >2.

The whole constructive credit is just the justification on how we come in as an O2 and promote to O3 faster than the rest of the line.


Original anon. Could you clarify this in respect to Backload's comment? It sounds like he is saying I'd be an O2 w/ 0 years and you're saying I'd be an O2 with >2. Perhaps the answer varies by branch?


Apologies for the confusion - I was posting from my phone and fat fingered the < sign. It should be <2. In other words, 0 years - 1 year 364 days are all in the same years-of-service pay band. If you look at any pay chart, that is usually categorized as <2: https://www.dfas.mil/dam/jcr:ccc8e348-1 ... 2018_4.pdf

Backload and I are saying the same thing.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:29 am

Reading over the most recent military directives. It seems that the ToS ( Time on Station) has been increased to a 36 month system. So PCS amounts may change for JAGs? Can anyone confirm that your locations are for 36 months instead of the previous 12-24?

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:11 pm

Hello,

I'm just checking to see if any Air Force April 2018 DAP applicants have any insights/rumors/gossip they'd like to share in reference to the release date of results.

Backload

New
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Reading over the most recent military directives. It seems that the ToS ( Time on Station) has been increased to a 36 month system. So PCS amounts may change for JAGs? Can anyone confirm that your locations are for 36 months instead of the previous 12-24?


Have not heard anything about this. For the Air Force at least, most assignments are two years. There are a few one year assignments, I.e, Korea and Turkey. Then there are some assignments you end up having to stay a third year due to some circumstance.

User avatar
howell

Silver
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:57 am

Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Reading over the most recent military directives. It seems that the ToS ( Time on Station) has been increased to a 36 month system. So PCS amounts may change for JAGs? Can anyone confirm that your locations are for 36 months instead of the previous 12-24?

AF JAG here, and I've heard nothing about our normal assignment lengths changing. Most jobs are 24 months; some are 36. The only thing I've heard close to this is that post-LLM assignments might move to 36 months, but it doesn't seem like that's what the people about to move now are being told.

User avatar
bouakedojo

Bronze
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:06 pm

howell wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:A bit of an aside here but still may be relevant: I'd be curious if Howell or any of the other experienced folks have thoughts on this but my personal experience at my first assignment have made me a bit more cautious on recommending the huge offices to start with. The perils of a large base legal office (Nellis, Ramstein, Travis, Lackland) is that it can be difficult to stand out in the right way as a first assignment. Depending on your leadership, preference for schools, awards, and other things might be going to the second assignments, who are, by nature, more senior and more experienced - you will get substantive work, for sure, but the environment is different. I honestly think this is more a factor of SJA/DSJA than the size of the office itself, but being a first assignment in an assembly line office like Lackland is a very different experience than a smaller office that is maybe 4-5 CGOs.

That is more a thought for discussion than any sort of warning for the OP -- if you want justice, the bigger/busier bases are where you will likely get it. Those are all solid picks for what you want to go into. Good luck!

I never worked in one of the big offices, but that's certainly possible. I think it's more the SJA/DSJA issue like you said than anything. Unfortunately, we can't tell JAX who's on our naughty list. I would also think if people see you coming out of Lackland, you might not be lighting up the strats, but getting 15 courts in your first assignment or whatever will have plenty of benefits. I would lean towards a larger base, because you'll be more likely to get the experience that can get you out of the base legal office for your second assignment.

And you were right about Holloman. They had a few drug rings in 2017 that decimated that office. They were down to 1-3 Capts for long stretches while facing the most courts-martial in the Air Force. That's one of the risks of a "smaller" base. If you have 5 Capts or fewer, having 2-3 (or more) out on leave, TDY, etc. will make your life hell if you're the one staying behind. Even more so if everyone left behind is a first assignment Capt. If there are 8 Capts rolling around, you're much less likely to be the Chief of Everything for a week or two.


I would concur with the SJA/DSJA comment. I was at a mid-size/slightly large base with 7 Captains and a full-bird as an SJA. I think careerwise, if you're a 20 year man or woman, it's probably better to be at a small base because you can get strats and you are in a better spot to play the game and get CGO of the X awards. But I also agree that doing a lot of courts would help you advance on the unofficial "litigation track." It would also help you if you cut out of the AF, which is my plan when the AF says I can't litigate anymore.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:14 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:Based on Howell’s post a bit back, and that I am actively procrastinating at work, I wanted to jot down a couple thoughts for those AD folks considering the reserves. This is going to be pretty Air Force specific.

1. Should I be thinking about the reserves: 100% yes, you should. It is a great form of supplemental income, allows you to stay plugged into the JAG Corps (you will likely miss it more than you realize), and can provide some nice balance from your civilian work (sick of your boss? Need a break? Get on orders and go do something different for a few weeks/months – USERRA has your back). For me it has also had the benefit of continuing to develop my resume – as a reservist, I’ve served in the appellate shop, as a trial litigation instructor, and now in a leadership position. That both adds to and diversifies my skill sets, something that has been helpful for me.

If you become a Fed on the civilian side, you get 15 days of Military Leave each year in addition to annual leave and sick leave. This amounts to a minimum of 3 weeks of “double dipping” in which you get your Fed AND Military paycheck. That is a solid chunk of money each year.

Feds can also “buy back” their military time for their Federal retirement (FERS) – that means you can retroactively contribute to your retirement from your military years and get retirement credit for those years. For example, I bought back my six years on AD, meaning that after I serve as a Fed for 20 years, I am actually going to retire as someone with 26 years of service. That can add up.

Also, all of your PCS going-away gifts and other military SWAG will look really impressive to civilians in your office. So, there’s that.

2. How does actually being a reservist work? There are three flavors of reserve service (the technical term of AGR – Air Guard & Reserve):

i. Category A: You are likely a DSJA or SJA that is attached to a dedicated reserve Wing that is very likely going to be in some form of driving distance from where you live. You function a lot like folks in the Air Guard in terms of having a drill weekend each month and then your two weeks. You are never totally off the clock, even if not drilling, but the benefit is that you are serving close-ish to home. Another big benefit is that you are going to be doing leadership things, which looks really good for promotion boards. While most of the regular Air Force reservists are Cat A, it is the minority for JAGs – I will admit I am not as knowledgeable about the actual day-to-day life of Cat A.

ii. Category B (a/k/a IMA ): This is the type of reservist that most AF JAGs are going to be familiar with and how most reservists serve (me included). You are attached to an Active Duty unit and are there to help them out when needed, e.g., during the summer PCS season when there are gaps in manning or someone gets deployed and they need a body for a few weeks.

You end up owing 24 total days a year – it will depend on your unit and SJA on how these days are actually used. 12 of them (your Annual Tour, AT) has to be served all together. The other 12 (Inactive Duty Training, IDTs) can be broken up or served consecutively with your AT. You can also telework IDTs, depending on your office.

You can also do more days, known as MPA tours – this can be at your assigned unit or any other unit that needs assistance and can be for days or months. Generally, the more days you serve is what makes you more competitive for promotion compared to folks that serve only the minimum.

Most new reservists are going to be attached to a base legal office – that can be a mixed bag in my experience. Some SJAs use reservists well, which enables the reservist to get good experience, that leads to good OPR bullets, which leads to good OPRs, which leads to promotions. Some SJAs , however, do not and that can make things more challenging.

Unlike in the past, due to AFJAG Reserve manning being at over 100%, we are now moving assignments every 2-3 years like the active duty folks – being able to homestead at a single base is no longer an option. This means you need to be prepared to be attached to some unit that may not be convenient or desirable – you may also get attached to somewhere really fun and nice.

iii. Air National Guard – like Cat A, but you are part of a state Guard. There are no doubt folks on this board that can speak far better on the Guard but one thing I will note is that you obviously get to stay in that state for your duty. The other benefit is that promotions can be much faster – rank is assigned to a particular position, meaning if you take that position, you get that rank. You, a junior Major, get selected to replace your current boss, who is a Lt Col. You, suddenly, are now a Lt Col. That cuts the other way however as well – if the folks above you are not moving out, you may not be moving up quickly.

3. Promotions?

At least for Cat A/Cat B, it is every 7 years. You will meet promotion boards like when you are on AD. I put on Major in the reserves 7 years to the day after I put on Captain on active duty and if selected for Lt Col down the road, will put on 7 years from my DOR for Major.

There are opportunities for what amounts to “below the zone” as well – I know folks that have promoted around the 5 year mark. Promoting to Major and Lt Col is competitive but attainable if you are checking the right boxes (ACSC is #1, along with making sure you meet your minimum required service each year – as mentioned, doing additional MPA tours is always a plus but that can be hard depending on professional and personal circumstances). Selection to O6 is both a shitshow and a general mystery to me – I think the 2017 board selected 3 of 22 “in the zone.” That is mitigated by the fact that you can keep competing “above the zone” for multiple years (the up and out rule does not really apply).

4. Deploying?

I can only speak to Cat Bs but not likely – you can get put on the volunteer list but there are only like 3-4 spots each year, all forecasted and filled well in advance. Every now and then they need a backfill that allows for a short-notice opportunity, but I have only seen a few of those.

5. Anything I hate?

All of the annual requirements – all of those headaches from active duty like fitness testing, CBTs (which seem to keep growing), and all the other flavor of the month trainings that spring up are still in your life in the reserves. As I noted above, most of the Air Force Reserves are Cat A – that means there are set dates to drill in which everyone is together at their reserve base. This makes it easy to do training X, medical appointment Y, and all the other requirements.

However, when you are a Cat B, your unit may be far away (let’s say, Germany) and you may or may not be close to another installation. HQ will invent some training that must be conducted in person on a short notice suspense – but you are not going to be on orders at your unit for months. Because almost everyone outside of the JAGC is not Cat B, no one seems to remember the Cat Bs and the challenges we can face. Things work themselves out eventually but headaches never the less.

Also, completing your PME (ACSC, etc) is a massive time suck for which you do not get compensated – you get points for all of your coursework, which contributes to your retirement, but it is still a significant burden.

That all said – the things I enjoy and appreciate about my reserve service vastly outweigh the headaches.

Hopefully that helps some of you out.


A little late for this but thank you, PB! Great stuff as always.

Wolfman10

New
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Wolfman10 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hello,

I'm just checking to see if any Air Force April 2018 DAP applicants have any insights/rumors/gossip they'd like to share in reference to the release date of results.


I'm hoping that we hear something this week (starting Monday). Calls went out around the first week of May in the last few years.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:37 pm

Wolfman10 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hello,

I'm just checking to see if any Air Force April 2018 DAP applicants have any insights/rumors/gossip they'd like to share in reference to the release date of results.


I'm hoping that we hear something this week (starting Monday). Calls went out around the first week of May in the last few years.


Does anyone have any news on this? Thanks!

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:39 pm

Wolfman10 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hello,

I'm just checking to see if any Air Force April 2018 DAP applicants have any insights/rumors/gossip they'd like to share in reference to the release date of results.


I'm hoping that we hear something this week (starting Monday). Calls went out around the first week of May in the last few years.


Does anyone have any news on the results? Thanks.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2018 7:03 pm

Calls should be going out. At least I got one.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2018 7:22 pm

I just got a call too

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 02, 2018 8:56 am

I did not receive a call last night nor did I receive the dreaded "you were not selected" email. Hopefully more calls today.

rendi

New
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 10:35 am

Re: Military Law

Postby rendi » Wed May 02, 2018 10:40 am

I have yet to receive any news one way or the other. Does anyone have the inside scoop re: how the individual SJAs are notified of selectees? Is there one announcement with names of selectees that is published by the board? Should we all receive notification at around the same time?

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 02, 2018 11:17 am

The call came late in the day, so I bet more individuals will get calls today.

annon1234

New
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:33 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby annon1234 » Wed May 02, 2018 12:13 pm

I reached out to JAX and they stated that they have not contacted people yet regarding Jag air force active duty. People may be getting calls for the reserves? Can people clarify? Thank you.

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 02, 2018 12:33 pm

First anon reporting a call. The SJA with whom I interviewed reached out to tell me. The emails or whatever won't go out until later. Active duty, DAP.

Zortney

New
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 7:19 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Zortney » Wed May 02, 2018 12:58 pm

I got a call yesterday and it was for DAP with the Air Force

Anonymous User
Posts: 324816
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 02, 2018 1:10 pm

AF DAP Active Duty calls are going out, but they could happen any time this week.

SJAs are individually notified by e-mail when one of their interviewees is selected. Notifications go out to all SJAs for all interviewees at the same time. SJAs are then given a deadline for making the notification calls.

I believe once all notifications are made, they will then send out the ding e-mails.



Return to “Legal Employment?

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.