Military Law Forum

adonai · Post by **adonai** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:39 am

Just wondering what you guys have on the back burner if this JAG thing doesn't work out. For those of you out of law school or getting there, what are you doing/plan to do?

LazinessPerSe · Post by **LazinessPerSe** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:20 am

Navy SUPCO
Navy Intel
Navy Surface Warfare
Navy Nuclear (will need to take some Calculus)
Navy Reserves
FBI/CIA/NSA/IRS
Corporate Claims Dept. (not legal outright -> possible way to backdoor in-house)

Navy SUPCO is my best secondary for Finance + Law degrees, but plenty of other options.

turtlejax · Post by **turtlejax** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:09 pm

Hello everyone.

I have been reading this forum for months as I've gone through the application process with the AF and NAVY JAG. It has been a very helpful source of info, thanks to all who contribute.

I got an acceptance call last Friday from the AF. I didn't get much info other than to look out for an info package in the mail with specifics. I do have a issue that I was hoping to get some straightforward answers about. I have heard wildly different things about deployment with the AF, ranging from my Navy Seal cousin who told me I was 100% certain to be deployed to a combat area and anyone who says differently is full of it, to others that have said that deployment spots are growing more limited and that it's hard to get deployed even if you want to and ask for it. Anyone know what the truth is as we stand today?

BetterCallSaul! · Post by **BetterCallSaul!** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:23 pm

turtlejax wrote:Hello everyone.

I have been reading this forum for months as I've gone through the application process with the AF and NAVY JAG. It has been a very helpful source of info, thanks to all who contribute.

I got an acceptance call last Friday from the AF. I didn't get much info other than to look out for an info package in the mail with specifics. I do have a issue that I was hoping to get some straightforward answers about. I have heard wildly different things about deployment with the AF, ranging from my Navy Seal cousin who told me I was 100% certain to be deployed to a combat area and anyone who says differently is full of it, to others that have said that deployment spots are growing more limited and that it's hard to get deployed even if you want to and ask for it. Anyone know what the truth is as we stand today?

Congratulations, turtlejax!

Was this your first board? Can you indulge us in some stats?!

As far as I understand regarding AF deployments, I would 100% expect to be deployed but whether it happens sooner or later in life is another story. Further, I think 'combat area' is a bit vague; JAGs get deployed to Guantanamo, Kyrgyzstan, etc. in addition to the hotter areas (Afghanistan, etc.). I think it's just a que sera, sera type of deal. My .02.

Again, congrats!!

Patrick Bateman · Post by **Patrick Bateman** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:35 pm

turtlejax wrote:Hello everyone.

I have been reading this forum for months as I've gone through the application process with the AF and NAVY JAG. It has been a very helpful source of info, thanks to all who contribute.

I got an acceptance call last Friday from the AF. I didn't get much info other than to look out for an info package in the mail with specifics. I do have a issue that I was hoping to get some straightforward answers about. I have heard wildly different things about deployment with the AF, ranging from my Navy Seal cousin who told me I was 100% certain to be deployed to a combat area and anyone who says differently is full of it, to others that have said that deployment spots are growing more limited and that it's hard to get deployed even if you want to and ask for it. Anyone know what the truth is as we stand today?

I'd say there are 30ish deployment slots for AF O-3 JAGs at this point. That is not a hard number, just an educated guess based on all the folks that I know are downrange. The vast majority are in Afghanistan but there are a number of us scattered in areas like Guantanamo, Qatar, and throughout AFRICOM. I did eight months at Guantanamo where I was one of three AF JAGs in the JTF, all O-3s. Almost all of these positions are billeted as 179 day tours but some get extended. There are probably five or six 365 day deployments at the junior JAG level - most of those folks volunteered for the full year deployment, or, at the least, volunteered to deploy.

For those folks coming in, you absolutely want to deploy if you can. It is an important career box to check as well as an incredible opportunity/experience. For those who fancy themselves litigators and want to compete for the Area Defense Counsel, Senior Trial Counsel, and Senior Defense Counsel positions, I highly recommend trying to get a deployment out of your first assignment if at all possible. ADCs and STCs are non-deployable, so it is very easy to spend your two-four years at Base Legal, followed by another two as ADC, followed by STC, and then suddenly you are eight years in, wearing oak leaves, without a deployment. There are less opportunities to deploy as you get more senior (although they are some of the cooler deployments out there) so that can become a very real career issue.

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:55 pm

For those of you accepted for the Dec AF DAP where did you interview?

turtlejax · Post by **turtlejax** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:52 am

Very good information about deployments, thank you.

This was my first time applying. I graduated in May from a top 30 school, top 10%, played baseball in college and professionally in Europe, and had some moot court experience. My interview was at Travis AFB in Fairfield, CA. I also applied to the Navy, but since I had already graduated I have to wait for the boards in February. That's probably just too long to wait without a real job...

Good luck to everyone and thanks again for the info!

jagapplicant2012 · Post by **jagapplicant2012** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:57 pm

Myself · Post by **Myself** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:44 am

Esquire · Post by **Esquire** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:13 am

ajax adonis wrote:Can someone explain how deployment can make or break a career? If there's specific information for a branch, please say so.

It sounds like you're actively trying to avoid one. Can I ask why? I can understand not jumping up to go but it's another thing to get into this sort of job actively looking to avoid a deployment. It's the main purpose of the job.

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:40 pm

Esquire: No offense but you seem to really be focused on whether people are trying to avoid deployments. I understand why but it really would be helpful to know why not deploying "could make or break your career". For those of us not in (or very familiar with) the military we genuinely don't understand a lot of the mechanics and just want to be more educated.

paul554 · Post by **paul554** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Esquire: No offense but you seem to really be focused on whether people are trying to avoid deployments. I understand why but it really would be helpful to know why not deploying "could make or break your career". For those of us not in (or very familiar with) the military we genuinely don't understand a lot of the mechanics and just want to be more educated.

Deployments are career broadening ventures that look great on your ORB. When preferential schools, assignments and so forth come down the pipe, HRC usually selects people who have at least one deployment first. Those without a deployment are offered PCS assignments to a unit preparing to deploy. If you manage to avoid deployments and stay stateside it will make military life harder. Now you could still do 20 years and retire just fine, but it will be a LOT easier with at least one deployment under your belt.
Also be prepared for every branch manager constantly asking why you didn't deploy and trying to set you up to deploy every 2-3 years.

**NOTE**
This is from a non-JAG officer perspective. I assume that the JAG corp looks at it the same as the rest of the Army though.

Esquire · Post by **Esquire** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:56 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Esquire: No offense but you seem to really be focused on whether people are trying to avoid deployments. I understand why but it really would be helpful to know why not deploying "could make or break your career". For those of us not in (or very familiar with) the military we genuinely don't understand a lot of the mechanics and just want to be more educated.

I'm not at all focused on whether people are trying to avoid deployments. I've made one pointed response about it. I'm not JARO. I don't care. But as one of the few people on this forum who is an actual JAG, I am making the point you should go in with the expectation of deploying. Will you? Maybe not. But it could happen. And what are you going to do if you get deployed but didn't plan on it?

I make this point because I know there are many here considering JAG because they couldn't snag something else. Again, I'm not JARO, I don't care. But I want to reiterate it's not just a job. Being a JAG is something that will dramatically affect your life. Location wise, family life, restrictions you otherwise wouldn't normally have, such as vacation destinations, among many other things.

Yes, actively avoiding a deployment is bad for your career. Thanks for the assist, paul554. You are right on.

Groundie · Post by **Groundie** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:19 pm

LazinessPerSe wrote:Navy SUPCO
Navy Intel
Navy Surface Warfare
Navy Nuclear (will need to take some Calculus)
Navy Reserves
FBI/CIA/NSA/IRS
Corporate Claims Dept. (not legal outright -> possible way to backdoor in-house)

Navy SUPCO is my best secondary for Finance + Law degrees, but plenty of other options.

Doesn't SWO also require calculus? I seem to recall not being eligible for that reason. I've also thought SUPPO would be good.

What kind of reservist do you think you'd be?

Groundie · Post by **Groundie** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:21 pm

adonai wrote:Just wondering what you guys have on the back burner if this JAG thing doesn't work out. For those of you out of law school or getting there, what are you doing/plan to do?

I'm working PT. Was admitted to the bar this month. Going to start looking for temp legal work or a govt gig while applying to Reserves and AF I guess? Money is extremely tight and I have $6,000 due by March.

LazinessPerSe · Post by **LazinessPerSe** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:08 pm

Groundie wrote:
LazinessPerSe wrote:Navy SUPPO
Navy Intel
Navy Surface Warfare
Navy Nuclear (will need to take some Calculus)
Navy Reserves
FBI/CIA/NSA/IRS
Corporate Claims Dept. (not legal outright -> possible way to backdoor in-house)

Navy SUPPO is my best secondary for Finance + Law degrees, but plenty of other options.
Doesn't SWO also require calculus? I seem to recall not being eligible for that reason. I've also thought SUPPO would be good.

What kind of reservist do you think you'd be?

SWO does also require calculus IIRC, good catch. Admittedly haven't done too much research on the Reserves yet. This board gives me hope that the back door might be open for JAG reserves, but not sure if it was Army-specific. What about yourself?

Groundie · Post by **Groundie** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:17 pm

The Army Reserve board is coming up so soon, so I think I'll give it a shot, especially if I don't have to re-interview from the active duty application.

I think otherwise I'd be interested in active duty Navy Supply Corps or Air Force Contracting since they're both practical skills in which a law degree can be useful, but not required.

rvadog · Post by **rvadog** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:25 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Esquire: No offense but you seem to really be focused on whether people are trying to avoid deployments. I understand why but it really would be helpful to know why not deploying "could make or break your career". For those of us not in (or very familiar with) the military we genuinely don't understand a lot of the mechanics and just want to be more educated.

I'm not trying to speak for anyone here, just giving some perspective.

For some of us that are military and have either deployed or otherwise spent time in less than desirable positions, people asking how if it is possible to avoid these position are kind of offensive.

I would encourage everyone to remember that they are not joining JAG. They are joining the U.S. Military. Just some perspective

Myself · Post by **Myself** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:58 am

erik_1717 · Post by **erik_1717** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:06 pm

So I've been pretty hardcore about applying to the Marines (finally got my application complete two weeks ago), but upon realizing that they do not offer the same loan repayment plan as others, I have been tempted to look into other branches. I have applied for 2L internships with both the Air Force and Army, and have began my application for the Navy Feb. Board. I tried to look into applying to be an actual JAG in the Air Force, but it looks like the program for 2Ls required me to do an interview in the fall semester of my 2L year. So my question is really just to clarify with those that know info about the Army and Air Force application processes. It looks like I will have to wait until my third year to apply to the Air Force, but there are three boards that meet in that year, thus three chances to get in, correct? Also, it looks like the Army meets twice a year, and I don't know if I have found a source that has anything a 2L can do to apply. Am I correct in saying that I will not be able to apply anything Army JAG related until third year?

Thanks for all the great info already and any future responses.

shir9650 · Post by **shir9650** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:36 pm

erik_1717 wrote:So I've been pretty hardcore about applying to the Marines (finally got my application complete two weeks ago), but upon realizing that they do not offer the same loan repayment plan as others, I have been tempted to look into other branches. I have applied for 2L internships with both the Air Force and Army, and have began my application for the Navy Feb. Board. I tried to look into applying to be an actual JAG in the Air Force, but it looks like the program for 2Ls required me to do an interview in the fall semester of my 2L year. So my question is really just to clarify with those that know info about the Army and Air Force application processes. It looks like I will have to wait until my third year to apply to the Air Force, but there are three boards that meet in that year, thus three chances to get in, correct? Also, it looks like the Army meets twice a year, and I don't know if I have found a source that has anything a 2L can do to apply. Am I correct in saying that I will not be able to apply anything Army JAG related until third year?

Thanks for all the great info already and any future responses.

I wouldn't count on getting student loan repayment from the Army. It looks like the program is currently under review, due to budget restrictions. --LinkRemoved--

bouakedojo · Post by **bouakedojo** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:03 pm

shir9650 wrote:
erik_1717 wrote:So I've been pretty hardcore about applying to the Marines (finally got my application complete two weeks ago), but upon realizing that they do not offer the same loan repayment plan as others, I have been tempted to look into other branches. I have applied for 2L internships with both the Air Force and Army, and have began my application for the Navy Feb. Board. I tried to look into applying to be an actual JAG in the Air Force, but it looks like the program for 2Ls required me to do an interview in the fall semester of my 2L year. So my question is really just to clarify with those that know info about the Army and Air Force application processes. It looks like I will have to wait until my third year to apply to the Air Force, but there are three boards that meet in that year, thus three chances to get in, correct? Also, it looks like the Army meets twice a year, and I don't know if I have found a source that has anything a 2L can do to apply. Am I correct in saying that I will not be able to apply anything Army JAG related until third year?

Thanks for all the great info already and any future responses.
I wouldn't count on getting student loan repayment from the Army. It looks like the program is currently under review, due to budget restrictions. --LinkRemoved--

But keep in mind the federal program that offers 10 year loan forgiveness for military members, if you're wanting to make a career out of JAG service.

Myself · Post by **Myself** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:54 pm

spleenworship · Post by **spleenworship** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:54 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
shir9650 wrote:
erik_1717 wrote:So I've been pretty hardcore about applying to the Marines (finally got my application complete two weeks ago), but upon realizing that they do not offer the same loan repayment plan as others, I have been tempted to look into other branches. I have applied for 2L internships with both the Air Force and Army, and have began my application for the Navy Feb. Board. I tried to look into applying to be an actual JAG in the Air Force, but it looks like the program for 2Ls required me to do an interview in the fall semester of my 2L year. So my question is really just to clarify with those that know info about the Army and Air Force application processes. It looks like I will have to wait until my third year to apply to the Air Force, but there are three boards that meet in that year, thus three chances to get in, correct? Also, it looks like the Army meets twice a year, and I don't know if I have found a source that has anything a 2L can do to apply. Am I correct in saying that I will not be able to apply anything Army JAG related until third year?

Thanks for all the great info already and any future responses.
I wouldn't count on getting student loan repayment from the Army. It looks like the program is currently under review, due to budget restrictions. --LinkRemoved--
But keep in mind the federal program that offers 10 year loan forgiveness for military members, if you're wanting to make a career out of JAG service.

Do you get the tax bomb with the 10 year discharge for public service? I forget...

LSATmakesMeNeurotic · Post by **LSATmakesMeNeurotic** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:07 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Do you get the tax bomb with the 10 year discharge for public service? I forget...

No.

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