Military Law Forum

[spleenworship]

The only good thing about the standards being where they are is I maxed every one I ever took. I also applied to be a CRO when they first created the career field. I passed the PT test but eventually it was decided that my knee issue was not conducive to carrying telephone poles over my head and the other fun stuff involved in superman school. (It did solidify my "Crackbaby" call sign though.)

I got to interact with the CROs and PJs out of the 58th RQS and 66th RQS when I was stationed at Nellis. Those guys do some legit hero work out there. Simply unbelievable operators and mission capabilities.

I helped do paramedic training for some PJs before law school started. Those guys are simply badass.

[JCFindley]

They really are. I was trying to go ANG out on Long Island at Grabreski. That was the unit that was in the Perfect Storm book and movie.

I am especially appreciative of anyone that has the primary mission of saving my pink little fragile ass.

[Esquire]

(In all seriousness, I just asked an Army guy that is over here and for the new Army PFT it is like five pullups and the USAF does not require them unless you want to be a PJ, CRO or CCT. (None of which are JAGs.)

There's been talk of a new Army PFT every couple of months for the past couple of years. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm sure it's coming but there's nothing official yet.

I know there was an Army Times article about the new PFT this past week but it's still just talk. Here's what was being said a few months ago:

Army officials are adamant that the new test remain gender-neutral. That means identical events with different scoring standards for men and women.

“If we did the pullups, it would disadvantage the female soldiers, and I’m just not comfortable with that,” Longo said.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/03/a ... er-031812/

[xerxes]

So need some help, and perhaps direction of where to better ask this.

I was selected on the spring board for Navy JAG, and have submitted all of my paperwork, but just heard back that I'm medically DQ'd before I've had a chance to do MEPS. The basis is my knees; I had a minor right meniscus surgery in 2007, ACL surgery in my left knee 2008, and a minor cleanup meniscus surgery on the left knee in 2009. Since then I've been fine, and have basically full range of motion/activites/etc. (still play basketball, for instance, without limitation).

I know the next step is to potentially have a waiver, and I'm wondering if there's anyone who has been through this process and could maybe offer advice/support. Thanks for any help.

[NAOBERJU]

The waiver process is a painful process. I was professionally recommended in the fall. It took 7 months to get a final medical rejection. They made me get a waiver before I even went to MEPS. You basically need to take tests and get all supporting medical documentation before you are even allowed to set up an appointment at MEPS. Once that is complete to someone's satisfaction, they set up your MEPS appointment. The physician you meet with at MEPS can recommend a waiver or decide not to recommend. However, the physician seemed to have little power. The physician I met with recommended waivers and here I am. After MEPS you will find out if you failed. If you fail there is an appeals process where your entire packet gets sent to a medical board. There is also a letter you can write arguing your case. I don't know how or who makes the final decision. That being said, a knee injury shouldn't be too much of a problem. My cousin is a CPT in the Marine Corps and he had two ACL surgeries prior to entering. From what I have heard it is a fairly common waiver and one that is often granted.

[Fed_Atty]

.

[xerxes]

Thanks for the advice guys. Given that this has been my goal since 1L (and have applied/not been professionally recommended several times), going to fight pretty hard to have this happen.

From what I've heard, I actually should be able to get a waiver to do MEPS, and then my entire profile would be looked at for an overall waiver for conditions. Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

[NAOBERJU]

I know what I am going to post will be inflammatory and really personal, but I hope to give a truthful impression and possibly help others realize their dream without it being obliterated by medical. I also hope that there will be more guidance on this site for medical waivers. I had no idea what the process entailed or what to expect. And my recruiter was also lost if truth be told. A bit of backround first. I had asthma as a child, but I have had no issues since I was about 8. I was diagnosed with OCD about 4 years ago. I was on medication for a period but have been off for several years.

From what I gathered, the military is funny with certain medical issues, asthma and "mental" conditions included. I didn't have any medical records before I was 7 because my pediatrician moved away and I never was able to find out where the records were kept. I admitted all the medical records since then. There was no mention of any issue with asthma. The only thing that was in the records was a statement that I had a history of asthma. I played sports, lived in different climates, etc. I took a spirometry test and it was in the normal range. My doctors wrote amazing recommendations. The doctor at MEPS recommended waivers for all conditions. Yet, I was still failed.

[NAOBERJU]

The actual decision making is a black box. I don't know how thoroughly the people on the board looked at my records or my letter. It could have been a perfunctory reject based on the condition. I don't know and my recruiter did not know. It is frustrating and really really sucked.

However, I recommend that everyone go forward. What is the worst that can happen? You might get lucky and have someone on the board who is more lenient or in a better mood when they look at your paperwork.

Now for the inflammatory. I hate to say this, but in my experience the worst thing you can do is tell the truth. I was a JAGC intern with the Navy after my 1L year and an intern with the Army JAGC after my 2L year. I met so many people who lied about medical conditions. I met so many people who developed non-waiverable conditions after they joined, or who never sought treatment for their issues. The only thing that matters to the military is what is on your medical records, what is actually written down. It is unfair, but that is the way it is. I always worried about telling the truth about everything. However, I am fine. I would have had no problems in the military and yet I was rejected because I told the truth. I received stellar recommendations from both the Navy and Army internships. I was told I was a "must select." I was picked up on my first board with the Navy. Yet, here I am. I am on the outside while everyone who lied actually has a job.

I have a good friend who is in the Army and his father works for MEPS. He told me that if he had known me before I started the process he would have told me to lie. Maybe I am just bitter, but that is my experience no matter what the MEPS people and recruiters say. Here I am and yet the military is full of people who have the same conditions I have but had the better sense to not disclose.

[Rotor]

Naoberju, I certainly understand your frustration. Because I put a history of hayfever on my pre-service physical, I almost did not get to fly for my career path. I too had been asymptomatic for my entire post-pubescent life. Thankfully, the allergist recommended a waiver that the board accepted in my case.

However, as harsh as the consequences of telling the truth may seem to you, lying on your medical history is not a wise course of action. I won't even get into the ethical implications as a military officer. The places the military operates are harsh environments, often hundreds (if not thousands) of miles from an MD, let alone advanced medical facilities. The folks who have written these rules have done so with operational limits of medical care in mind. A person who has an asthmatic attack far from sources of necessary medications or facilities runs a not-insignificant risk of death. Yes, the standard they have created may be overly broad, but any military plan must account for all variables.

It sucks for you. It almost sucked for me. If it had come out differently for me I very well may be advocating the same thing. However, seeing how things really work for 20+ years from the inside, nothing "good" (for the service) comes from lying. It's only the individual who gets through the door, but may have bigger problems in the long run.

[Patrick Bateman]

However, as harsh as the consequences of telling the truth may seem to you, lying on your medical history is not a wise course of action. I won't even get into the ethical implications as a military officer....It's only the individual who gets through the door, but may have bigger problems in the long run.

This.

On both the Government and Defense side, I've seen administrative and criminal action against folks who willfully failed to disclose medical conditions, prior drug use, and the like. You never know when this sort of thing can come up - years from now you might be filling out a new SF-86 for a TS/SCI security clearance, complete with extensive interviews of people you have worked for and associated with, or get put in for a deployment/position that requires one or more polygraphs. There are myriad ways in the military where a piece of information you are trying to hide can get pried loose, often in circumstances you could have never anticipated coming in.

As they say, it ain't the crime that kills you, it is the cover up. As one of the resident JAGs on this thread, let me caution anyone considering willfully misrepresenting facts on the application or other accessions related paperwork.

[xerxes]

Not to piggy back completely on this, but even if I get denied for admitting the knee surgery, I don't think I'd regret disclosing it. Granted, my cause is somewhat academic, as surely they would see the scars and begin to wonder . But a large part of my motivation for going JAG is holding myself to a higher standard, and as part of that, I don't think lying on my initial form was the way to go (let alone any future consequence).

It does suck that some of these DQs seem to be arbitrary and unrelated to military duty, and I'm going to fight like hell to make sure it works out. With all that being said, it does suck to hear that those who have lied haven't been caught for it, and again that those who really would be good contributors aren't getting the opportunity.

Anyways thanks again for the help and responses.

[NAOBERJU]

I am not advocating lying on your medical forms. I obviously didn't lie. I am simply relating my experiences with the waiver process and what I heard and witnessed firsthand when I worked for two different branches of the military. I am simply expressing the absolute frustration I have with a system that seems to reward those that did not play by the rules. There may be people who have been prosecuted or punished for lying, but I am just saying that I met many people in both branches--enlisted and officer--who did not play by the rules. Maybe that system should be changed, but as of now, if an applicant has a medical issue that requires a waiver, the end result is arbitrary.

[spleenworship]

I am not advocating lying on your medical forms. I obviously didn't lie. I am simply relating my experiences with the waiver process and what I heard and witnessed firsthand when I worked for two different branches of the military. I am simply expressing the absolute frustration I have with a system that seems to reward those that did not play by the rules. There may be people who have been prosecuted or punished for lying, but I am just saying that I met many people in both branches--enlisted and officer--who did not play by the rules. Maybe that system should be changed, but as of now, if an applicant has a medical issue that requires a waiver, the end result is arbitrary.

This is my issue as well. If they had taken me years ago I would still be serving. But I told the truth about something so minor even my doctor doesn't seem to care (he has real patients) and I was turned down. Turned down at the same time that, literally, the US Army let in a functionally retarded guy going through MEPS with me. The guy scored so low on his ASVAB that if he had gotten even one more question wrong they would have turned him down (I can't remember the actual scores, it was a while ago, but I remember smoking a cigarette with him and wondering at the potential injustice if I, a healthy 20 year old who scored in the 95+ percentile on the same test and could run an 8 minute mile, was turned down while that guy got in).

I'm going to try one more time to get in to the military (this will be my fourth attempt) after passing the bar, trying for the Nat'l Guard JAG. I expect to be turned down again, but at least this time I'm pretty sure I'll actually get to the waiver stage and actually try it. And at least I'll be able to say that while I shouldn't have listened to my mom at 18 (cuz then I would've been a warrant officer and done awesome things before they discovered my "issue") at least I tried.

But back to the above quote: It really does seem to be an unfair process that is unecessarily in the dark to applicants. Why not make it a clear and open administrative process with some rules and guidelines? It wouldn't hurt anyone, it wouldn't cost that much more, and it would save time and money on the part of both the Services and the applicants if people had a clearer idea of what will or won't work and why.

[howell]

But back to the above quote: It really does seem to be an unfair process that is unecessarily in the dark to applicants. Why not make it a clear and open administrative process with some rules and guidelines? It wouldn't hurt anyone, it wouldn't cost that much more, and it would save time and money on the part of both the Services and the applicants if people had a clearer idea of what will or won't work and why.

I doubt many changes will take place soon. I would hope minor changes occur as medical knowledge grows and technology changes, but if the military is still receiving enough qualified applicants, extra cost to not disqualify some individuals might be difficult to justify (politically, at least). I have had friends disqualified for medical "problems" that I could not imagine ever being a problem (either in doing the job or having the government pay to treat later). I remember how it felt facing that possibility in MEPS and it's a crushing thought. I certainly don't mean to just brush aside the heartache this is for certain individuals.

I try to do what I can when talking to people considering JAG. I bring up the medical approval process, try to mention a few things that are generally showstoppers, and then suggest the individuals look up the process to see if they have anything that might be a problem in their medical history. A lot of people won't pay attention to that (I certainly didn't give it as much attention as I should have), but it's about the best thing I can do right now. In my case, I quit a full-time job to take a summer JAG internship and rearranged much of my life just to have a better chance at getting selected. At the least, law students considering JAG will often close other doors in their pursuit of JAG, and so it's important that people know what could wreck the whole thing.

[usafjag]

Hoping someone can help-maybe these numbers aren't published anywhere, but how hard is it to get into JAG-AF, Army, USN, USMC? I've looked a lot, and read a lot of opinions(consensus: it's hard), but can't find any x number applied and x number were accepted.

[bouakedojo]

So...

I got an AF fall internship at the local base!!!

Super stoked.

[leedleed]

Hoping someone can help-maybe these numbers aren't published anywhere, but how hard is it to get into JAG-AF, Army, USN, USMC? I've looked a lot, and read a lot of opinions(consensus: it's hard), but can't find any x number applied and x number were accepted.

For the Navy, I heard it was around 6% this past selection board.

[xerxes]

is that student program or da?

[spleenworship]

So...

I got an AF fall internship at the local base!!!

Super stoked.

Congrats!

[JCFindley]

So...

I got an AF fall internship at the local base!!!

Super stoked.

CONGRATS!

[bouakedojo]

Congrats!

CONGRATS!

Thanks, spleenworship and JCFindley.

And thanks to all the people who've contributed to this thread. It has helped me a lot in obtaining the internship and for preparing my apps.

[leedleed]

is that student program or da?

student program

[leedleed]

Anyone know anything about waivers for hypertension/high blood pressure for the Navy? I'm wondering what the procedure is like to get a waiver if necessary, and if anyone even knows what the cut off line is for hypertension (what BP measurement is considered to be not physically qualified for JAG). Thanks in advance!

[spleenworship]

Anyone know anything about waivers for hypertension/high blood pressure for the Navy? I'm wondering what the procedure is like to get a waiver if necessary, and if anyone even knows what the cut off line is for hypertension (what BP measurement is considered to be not physically qualified for JAG). Thanks in advance!

I don't know the exact answer to your question, but after research I can tell you this: It would be way better to not have to ask for a waiver. If it is possible to get that down with diet and exercise instead of medication, I would do that and pass your history of hypertension off to the MEPS doc as a "I had it for a little while cuz I wasn't running enough and eating too much kielbasa, but its all good now."