Military Law Forum

[so ambivalent]

For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.

I got dinged because I admitted to taking anti-anxiety prescription medication in law school because I was stressed about grades/job prospects and my school's counseling center encouraged me to take it. It was so absurd and such bullshit. Both female JAG applicants from my law school in the class before mine also got dinged the year before for the same shit. One got a waiver (army), and I don't know what happened to other but she is not a jag (navy). I knew girls in the class below me who were going to have the same issue so I gave them the advice that my JAOBC person and a former jag gave me: don't disclose. Most meds are not detecable in your blood or urine tests that they take for the meds. I know it's fucked up an lying, but the military is all about not dislcosing things so whatever.

[S. Goodman]

For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.

I got dinged because I admitted to taking anti-anxiety prescription medication in law school because I was stressed about grades/job prospects and my school's counseling center encouraged me to take it. It was so absurd and such bullshit. Both female JAG applicants from my law school in the class before mine also got dinged the year before for the same shit. One got a waiver (army), and I don't know what happened to other but she is not a jag (navy). I knew girls in the class below me who were going to have the same issue so I gave them the advice that my JAOBC person and a former jag gave me: don't disclose. Most meds are not detecable in your blood or urine tests that they take for the meds. I know it's fucked up an lying, but the military is all about not dislcosing things so whatever.

Thank you for sharing the information.

[Anonymous User]

For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.

I got dinged because I admitted to taking anti-anxiety prescription medication in law school because I was stressed about grades/job prospects and my school's counseling center encouraged me to take it. It was so absurd and such bullshit. Both female JAG applicants from my law school in the class before mine also got dinged the year before for the same shit. One got a waiver (army), and I don't know what happened to other but she is not a jag (navy). I knew girls in the class below me who were going to have the same issue so I gave them the advice that my JAOBC person and a former jag gave me: don't disclose. Most meds are not detecable in your blood or urine tests that they take for the meds. I know it's fucked up an lying, but the military is all about not dislcosing things so whatever.

What did the waiver process entail? What did you have to do?

[tx51]

Anyone have experience with LASIK waivers? Typically, how long does it take to hear back from the AF Surgeon General when applying for a waiver?

[so ambivalent]

What did the waiver process entail? What did you have to do?

I think it varies by branch and by whatever they ding you for. For me (Army), I bascially got all new tests which I paid for (why a pregnancy and drug test was again necessary is a shining example of senseless military bureucracy).
Then I wrote my own letter. I bascially approached it like a social security or ERISA disability appeal, except trying to prove the opposite i.e. I am not disabled. I looked at the Army regs and what they say about the particualr medical reason as well as what they say about medical qualifications in general; usually it has to be something that affects you or could affect you. My main argument was like "I've lived in terrorist zones, in 3rd world countries, where my family received death threats and had a security detail, I graduated with a 4.0 from an ivy league school, I went to a T20 law school I can handle the damn stress better than some 18 yo fresh out of hs who has never left his rurual hometown or been to college so these standards don't apply to me and my track record of dealing with stress should speak for itself. I also explained how my prescribing nurse bascially urged me to take anti-anxiety meds hen I was super stressed about graduating with no job and $100k debt by saying to me "it's no different at taking allegry meds" w. I also had 4 Army JAGs write me letters. 1 was a professor who taught a class I was in, the other was the officer who conducted my interview, one was a FLEP classmate, and another was an RO who was my supervisor for a fed agency I interned at during one of my summers. I also had my counselor and the prescribing nurse (unfortunately the one who initially prerscribed me the meds had been fired/left etc) write letters being like "I see her as being capable and fine." My dean also wrote a letter because she is big into mental health issues and had encouraged me to use counseling cenrter when I was bummed about my grades. Honestly the biggest struggle was getting the new prescribing nurse to write a letter that was positive. I think this is because mental health prescribers have a duty to only prescribe these drugs if it's medically necessary but they will always prescribe if there is any reason for doing so. So there's a large conflict of interest there.
A month or 2 after I submitted my app while I was balls deep in bar exam studying/hating my life I got a call from my JAO saying "you're in!" And I was like "uh thanks, I guess, you ruined my life for the last 6 mo and this actually made me depressed but nbd"
You may or may not get through the process wiuth the result you want and even if, like me, you get the desired result it may make you so disgusted that you just say "fuck it, I cannot do this for 4 years with no ability to quit."

[shintopig]

What did the waiver process entail? What did you have to do?

I think it varies by branch and by whatever they ding you for. For me (Army), I bascially got all new tests which I paid for (why a pregnancy and drug test was again necessary is a shining example of senseless military bureucracy).
Then I wrote my own letter. I bascially approached it like a social security or ERISA disability appeal, except trying to prove the opposite i.e. I am not disabled. I looked at the Army regs and what they say about the particualr medical reason as well as what they say about medical qualifications in general; usually it has to be something that affects you or could affect you. My main argument was like "I've lived in terrorist zones, in 3rd world countries, where my family received death threats and had a security detail, I graduated with a 4.0 from an ivy league school, I went to a T20 law school I can handle the damn stress better than some 18 yo fresh out of hs who has never left his rurual hometown or been to college so these standards don't apply to me and my track record of dealing with stress should speak for itself. I also explained how my prescribing nurse bascially urged me to take anti-anxiety meds hen I was super stressed about graduating with no job and $100k debt by saying to me "it's no different at taking allegry meds" w. I also had 4 Army JAGs write me letters. 1 was a professor who taught a class I was in, the other was the officer who conducted my interview, one was a FLEP classmate, and another was an RO who was my supervisor for a fed agency I interned at during one of my summers. I also had my counselor and the prescribing nurse (unfortunately the one who initially prerscribed me the meds had been fired/left etc) write letters being like "I see her as being capable and fine." My dean also wrote a letter because she is big into mental health issues and had encouraged me to use counseling cenrter when I was bummed about my grades. Honestly the biggest struggle was getting the new prescribing nurse to write a letter that was positive. I think this is because mental health prescribers have a duty to only prescribe these drugs if it's medically necessary but they will always prescribe if there is any reason for doing so. So there's a large conflict of interest there.
A month or 2 after I submitted my app while I was balls deep in bar exam studying/hating my life I got a call from my JAO saying "you're in!" And I was like "uh thanks, I guess, you ruined my life for the last 6 mo and this actually made me depressed but nbd"
You may or may not get through the process wiuth the result you want and even if, like me, you get the desired result it may make you so disgusted that you just say "fuck it, I cannot do this for 4 years with no ability to quit."

Ugh. If the military wants competitive JAG candidates they need to stop auto-DQing people for things like this. The more competitive the school it makes sense the higher the stress. It's dumb to ding perfectly good candidates because they seeking help when they need it. Maybe for infantry, armor, special forces, or other combat-intensive branches it would make more sense to be strict about this. And for the Marines, I'd also understand as well; even JAG officers there are riflemen.

Otherwise, Law School & Med School are high-stress years and the military should learn to understand that and relax their otherwise stringent standard for these positions, imo. I don't really believe that you should have a leg up because you "toughed it out" and didn't get help when you needed it. That just sounds dumb & frankly old-fashioned, especially for lawyers.

I understand JAG officers are still military-officers, expected to fight and win when needed. But, to think that they wouldn't or would perform poorly simply because they medicated their anxiety in law school is backwards thinking. Good civilian employers would know this. They would treat every candidate as an individual not blanket or broad stroke. I think the military could learn from the civilian world in this respect.

Imo, I think this contributes to that so-called "civilian-military divide." I know the term usually regards the civilian inability to understand and accept service-members into society as who they etc . . . But going the other way, the military doesn't help the situation by making it verboten to medicate yourself in any way beside Tylenol in order to be competitive as a lawyer. It shows an antiquated understanding of health that the civilian world does not share anymore.

Health issues are far more complex than mere physical injuries and it's backwards to think of PTS as a treatable condition that many active duty service-members face, but not other justifiable conditions; eg. stress or anxiety.

Even so, a little anxiety you can treat and move forward. Unless persistent or severe, it's not really a health issue that really deserves the scarlet-letter that it gets on an application. I can't think it's what the military's worried about. I could understand, but still not condone, why one would lie about this.

Again, all just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[so ambivalent]

Yea that was totally my thinking. But they do this with everything. Like only recently have they allowed people who wear head turbans/yarmulkes or have beards for religious reasons and are in non-combat roles (like JAG or army corps) to wear their religious garb and they only do it on a case by case basis. The notion that a navy dentist who is a Sikh could be prohibited from wearing a turban or beard (both of which are part of his religious beliefs) for "safety and discipline reasons" is completely insane. And that's honestly the reason that really smart people who great leadership and critical thinking skills never join because how--after studying constitutional law and "narrowly-tailored and all that jazz--can any of this make sense? I naively thought I could be a change I wanted to see in the military, but the shit I had to put up just to gt the chance to join it is probably gonna make me stay far away from it and encourage others to do the same.

[shintopig]

Yea that was totally my thinking. But they do this with everything. Like only recently have they allowed people who wear head turbans/yarmulkes or have beards for religious reasons and are in non-combat roles (like JAG or army corps) to wear their religious garb and they only do it on a case by case basis. The notion that a navy dentist who is a Sikh could be prohibited from wearing a turban or beard (both of which are part of his religious beliefs) for "safety and discipline reasons" is completely insane. And that's honestly the reason that really smart people who great leadership and critical thinking skills never join because how--after studying constitutional law and "narrowly-tailored and all that jazz--can any of this make sense? I naively thought I could be a change I wanted to see in the military, but the shit I had to put up just to gt the chance to join it is probably gonna make me stay far away from it and encourage others to do the same.

I hope that as people my age (20s & 30s) move up in the military, these policies are changed to reflect the makeup of American society. I remember in 2010 when the Army officially started giving exemptions to Sikh soldiers. There's a few now. It was a good and needed start.

But part of the military is breaking you down, your civilian-side, and building you back up to be part of this team. You all have to be the same; uniform. That's part of military-culture in any part of the world. You don't get to be different, you have to be a soldier, sailor, airmen, marine etc. just like your buddies. Individuality causes you to think about yourself, not your buddies. You're there for your team, not for you. So all these exemptions eat away at that philosophy.

If you're talking about the level of scrutiny this falls under, since it's religious (eg. a turban) it'll be strict scrutiny (compelling gov't interest narrowly tailored).

Compelling interest --> national security, efficient military.
Narrowly tailored --> probably for most cases, but in 2010 the Army decided banning turbans probably wouldn't pass this test if brought to court (or thought they just were rejecting good applicants for a stupid reason)

For lawyers, though, the military, like any employer has its nuances & eccentricities. I hope you change your mind about encouraging people to stay away. The military, if anything, need more positive voices of change among the officer corps, not less.

It's a big machine that needs a big push.

Beyond all that, while the military does have many excellent leaders, it does a royal job at pushing them away. Leaders need to be taken seriously, incentivized, & rewarded. The military is too old fashioned to do this as well as civilians employers do.

For your interest, I've had these good reads in my Favorites folder on what's needs changing with military leadership (Highly suggest the first one):

Interview with General McChrystal ret.: "Stanley McChrystal on how to shake up the military"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on- ... -military/

Written by an Air Force Intel. Officer: "How to lose great leaders? Ask the Army"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Another in the Atlantic: "Why our Best Officers are Leaving"
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ng/308346/

Keep your head up! It was not meant to be. There are greater things for you [more money, more personal freedom, shorter contracts, wearing your own clothes to work (lol)].

[S. Goodman]

I naively thought I could be a change I wanted to see in the military, but the shit I had to put up just to gt the chance to join it is probably gonna make me stay far away from it and encourage others to do the same.

You all have to be the same; uniform. That's part of military-culture in any part of the world. You don't get to be different, you have to be a soldier, sailor, airmen, marine etc. just like your buddies. Individuality causes you to think about yourself, not your buddies. You're there for your team, not for you. So all these exemptions eat away at that philosophy.

Lol ... The mission of the military is to kill the enemy. That mission calls for a certain way of life, that doesn't include you as an individual, but you as a small piece of a much larger organism. It isn't a job, it is a way of life. Just because Jags typically work in an office does not mean you are exempt from the mission and the lifestyle it requires. Everything you do in the military will be directly or indirectly supporting the mission of killing the enemy.

You will not change the military, you will either conform to what it requires or be shown the door. You hand over your freedom when you sign your contract.

[bsktbll28082]

I was recently presented with a appellate clerkship opportunity while I've been working all of the paperwork for my commission (I have not signed any commitment as of yet). Has anyone ever been selected (Navy JAG or other branches) and successfully deferred their start date for a year in order to complete a clerkship?

I personally know a 3L who graduated this year and is deferring for a 1 year clerkship. Army JAG Active Duty.

[krendall55]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in applying for the Air Force JAG, but from what I've read from this thread, the process is very competitive - very few people make it in on their first try. I'm thinking that I should apply to all four JAGS - AF, Army, CG & Marines..just to keep my options open. I would really like for someone with inside info on the process to let me know how things work, so I'll be prepared. My application materials are far from impressive, I went to a Top-50 law school, GPA is barely 3.0, I have some volunteer work, internships and legal clinics, and i have a current license. But I didn't do any moot court or law review. I really have no one that I know well enough to write me a recommendation. So, realistically, what are my odds?

[S. Goodman]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in applying for the Air Force JAG, but from what I've read from this thread, the process is very competitive - very few people make it in on their first try. I'm thinking that I should apply to all four JAGS - AF, Army, CG & Marines..just to keep my options open. I would really like for someone with inside info on the process to let me know how things work, so I'll be prepared. My application materials are far from impressive, I went to a Top-50 law school, GPA is barely 3.0, I have some volunteer work, internships and legal clinics, and i have a current license. But I didn't do any moot court or law review. I really have no one that I know well enough to write me a recommendation. So, realistically, what are my odds?

You didn't list the Navy. What do you do right now?

[krendall55]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in applying for the Air Force JAG, but from what I've read from this thread, the process is very competitive - very few people make it in on their first try. I'm thinking that I should apply to all four JAGS - AF, Army, CG & Marines..just to keep my options open. I would really like for someone with inside info on the process to let me know how things work, so I'll be prepared. My application materials are far from impressive, I went to a Top-50 law school, GPA is barely 3.0, I have some volunteer work, internships and legal clinics, and i have a current license. But I didn't do any moot court or law review. I really have no one that I know well enough to write me a recommendation. So, realistically, what are my odds?

You didn't list the Navy. What do you do right now?

Oh, I didn't realize the omission. I plan to apply to the Navy too. Right now I work for a Marketing firm.

[Anonymous User]

I recently accepted an Army JAG Reserves slot but I will be taking the July Bar. My question is.. when looking for civilian employment, when would be a good time to inform them of this commitment and that I will be gone for more than 4 months either in January or April of 2016? Should I tell them when they extend an offer or after I swear in or maybe a reasonable time before I go off to training?

Initially I planned to wait until after training to find civilian employment but that is not feasible because of student loans and the huge gap between the Bar and training.

[S. Goodman]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in applying for the Air Force JAG, but from what I've read from this thread, the process is very competitive - very few people make it in on their first try. I'm thinking that I should apply to all four JAGS - AF, Army, CG & Marines..just to keep my options open. I would really like for someone with inside info on the process to let me know how things work, so I'll be prepared. My application materials are far from impressive, I went to a Top-50 law school, GPA is barely 3.0, I have some volunteer work, internships and legal clinics, and i have a current license. But I didn't do any moot court or law review. I really have no one that I know well enough to write me a recommendation. So, realistically, what are my odds?

You didn't list the Navy. What do you do right now?

Oh, I didn't realize the omission. I plan to apply to the Navy too. Right now I work for a Marketing firm.

Well for the Marines at least, the most important thing is going to be your PFT. So at least a 22 minute 3 mile, 100 sit ups, and at least 15 pull ups to be competitive (for males at least). In that regard I am speaking from personal experience. They want to know your PFT score before you even apply I think.

You're going to have to dig up some LOR's for any branch that you apply to. At least for the Navy, they take significantly fewer direct appointments, than student selects. The other branches may be like this as well. Because you've already graduated that could hurt you. It is impossible to say whether your school and grades are enough because all the jags are going to look at the "whole person." There is no set school or grade threshold that will get you in. I know a few people that went to T2's and were selected, but I know of far more that were selected from T1's. Generally though high grades and a highly ranked school would make you more competitive. The amount of lawyers the Coast Guard hires is in the single digits I believe, so probably pretty competitive. Of the others I understand that the Air Force is the most difficult one to get into, most likely due to its type of mission attracting the type of person that goes to law school, and also because its relative small size. I think the general wisdom is the smaller the branch the more competitive it will be. But they are all extremely competitive.

As far as the process goes, you'll have to research each branch for specifics. The "Navy Jag Student Program" thread is a good resource for the Navy. Combing through this thread is a good source for the others as well. The general process for the Navy is submitting an application, and if you're selected you will be "professionally recommended" for a commission in Navy Jag. Then you will go through the medical/security clearing process. Assuming all is good you'll be commissioned and head to training. Law students wait until they graduate, but you'd be a DA so you'd leave as soon as you were commissioned.

[Anonymous User]

I'm glad the recruiting offices keeps an eye on this thread. You can pick out the people who have this sense of self importance and lack the qualities of and ability to recognize a great military officer. Ding.

[shintopig]

Hey everyone,

I am interested in applying for the Air Force JAG, but from what I've read from this thread, the process is very competitive - very few people make it in on their first try. I'm thinking that I should apply to all four JAGS - AF, Army, CG & Marines..just to keep my options open. I would really like for someone with inside info on the process to let me know how things work, so I'll be prepared. My application materials are far from impressive, I went to a Top-50 law school, GPA is barely 3.0, I have some volunteer work, internships and legal clinics, and i have a current license. But I didn't do any moot court or law review. I really have no one that I know well enough to write me a recommendation. So, realistically, what are my odds?

1.) No on can tell you your "odds." It's impossible to know. They use a "whole person" concept in these services to look at everything in an application. But every applicant and every board is unique. People get rejected 3x and get accepted on the 4th. People (such as me) get rejected multiple times from one service & get it on the 1st time for another service. People from T14 with LR & Moot get rejected but others from T4 get accepted. People outside the top LSAT-percentiles or quartiles of their graduating class make it. And plenty make it on their first try.

I still don't quite get what black magic goes into figuring out acceptees. There are some basic numerical formulas that I know the USN uses (using LSAT, GPA, & Interview score if I remember correctly). But mere stats are just one part. Best way to know is to just apply.


2.) That being said some basic things help. Good grades. Good schools. Work Experience. Leadership. Physical Fitness. A great interview. LORs & Motivational Essay. Public Service & Volunteering. Military history. You get the point.

3.) I know this sounds awful. But comb through this thread; it's been up & active for years. There's books-worth of information, just browse through and you'll have plenty of questions answered. I did it. It's better than you asking simple stuff that might've been asked just a few pages back.

4.) Check out the websites for all the services. They all have their own application procedures & nuances. Eg. the Army has one board-per year. The Marines have you take a PRT test with your app. The Coast Guard doesn't really do deployments (in the formal sense). The Navy JAGs don't do contracting. The Air Force . . . well, the Air Force is just down right picky.

5.) Check out if your law school (if you're still close by) or a close-by law school has visits or panels by current JAG Officers. They just did one with all 5 JAGCs at my law school this past April & it was open to the public. That's a good way to get a sense & ask questions.

I'm glad the recruiting offices keeps an eye on this thread. You can pick out the people who have this sense of self importance and lack the qualities of and ability to recognize a great military officer. Ding.

And lol. Thank you "anonymous user." Not obvious at all.

[S. Goodman]

I'm glad the recruiting offices keeps an eye on this thread. You can pick out the people who have this sense of self importance and lack the qualities of and ability to recognize a great military officer. Ding.

Unless you've been in the service for awhile, on active duty, I doubt you know what makes a good military officer sir.

[deadthrone7]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=250473

LST podcast with an Air Force JAG Officer. A little first hand experience, some interesting stuff.

[foregetaboutdre]

0L here and pretty sure I want to apply to AF GLP (midway through 1L) or USN's student program after 1L year. Father was prior US Army officer for 10+ years and I have family members who have made O-6 (probably won't matter). I have been trying to sift through as much information on these boards as possible, but would appreciate it if anyone has gone through the process of applying has any insight/will be willing to field some questions via PM about the process.

I think I could have potentially good letters of rec. bc of previous government work; however if anyone has any insight about the actual application process I'd very appreciative. One key question I have is do you record/have a PT test and send your scores in with an application or does the local AFROTC or Navy ROTC unit just verify they'd let you on? I am in shape/played a variety of sports in HS, but have more a "bulky/muscular build" that would probably give me a little trouble with with weight standards (however, I am almost certain I'd perform well on a PT test). For now, I plan to just cut all the weight through cardio and give up building muscle.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know when the fall Navy app goes up?

[shintopig]

Anyone know when the fall Navy app goes up?

It's up: http://www.facebook.com/navyjag/posts/10153455961225420

0L here and pretty sure I want to apply to AF GLP (midway through 1L) or USN's student program after 1L year. Father was prior US Army officer for 10+ years and I have family members who have made O-6 (probably won't matter). I have been trying to sift through as much information on these boards as possible, but would appreciate it if anyone has gone through the process of applying has any insight/will be willing to field some questions via PM about the process.

I think I could have potentially good letters of rec. bc of previous government work; however if anyone has any insight about the actual application process I'd very appreciative. One key question I have is do you record/have a PT test and send your scores in with an application or does the local AFROTC or Navy ROTC unit just verify they'd let you on? I am in shape/played a variety of sports in HS, but have more a "bulky/muscular build" that would probably give me a little trouble with with weight standards (however, I am almost certain I'd perform well on a PT test). For now, I plan to just cut all the weight through cardio and give up building muscle.

Check on specific branches' JAG websites. It's easier for you to find out application specifics there & other basics than ask us here. Quickly though, USN, AR & AF don't require PT scores to apply. USMC does. CG I dunno.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know when the fall Navy app goes up?

It's up: http://www.facebook.com/navyjag/posts/10153455961225420

Thanks for that. Ugh, looks like they're not taking DA applicants for the fall, so there goes my only chance. Guess it wasn't meant to be.

[foregetaboutdre]

Anyone know when the fall Navy app goes up?

It's up: http://www.facebook.com/navyjag/posts/10153455961225420

0L here and pretty sure I want to apply to AF GLP (midway through 1L) or USN's student program after 1L year. Father was prior US Army officer for 10+ years and I have family members who have made O-6 (probably won't matter). I have been trying to sift through as much information on these boards as possible, but would appreciate it if anyone has gone through the process of applying has any insight/will be willing to field some questions via PM about the process.

I think I could have potentially good letters of rec. bc of previous government work; however if anyone has any insight about the actual application process I'd very appreciative. One key question I have is do you record/have a PT test and send your scores in with an application or does the local AFROTC or Navy ROTC unit just verify they'd let you on? I am in shape/played a variety of sports in HS, but have more a "bulky/muscular build" that would probably give me a little trouble with with weight standards (however, I am almost certain I'd perform well on a PT test). For now, I plan to just cut all the weight through cardio and give up building muscle.

Check on specific branches' JAG websites. It's easier for you to find out application specifics there & other basics than ask us here. Quickly though, USN, AR & AF don't require PT scores to apply. USMC does. CG I dunno.

Thanks for the help. Sometimes I let little things nag me about stuff. Not even close to applying yet either!!

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L at a t14-- median or around there, non-URM Hispanic. Resume full of public service and prosecution internships. Do I even have a shot at any JAG positions?

Also: my career office is awful when it comes to this stuff--- when do apps typically open, and what are the next steps I need to take?

Thank you all so much.