Military Law Forum

[Keithustus]

Hmmmm, possibilities, if true, anyway. But the folks with whom I've talked talk indicate it isn't so easy as some of you indicate. However, that would still all assume that I had any interest in leaving the career field I have loved so much already and become a boring JAG. Sure, the JAG Corps may be fun on active duty, but I only want active duty when so directed by the President, not every day.

[spleenworship]

Hmmmm, possibilities, if true, anyway. But the folks with whom I've talked talk indicate it isn't so easy as some of you indicate. However, that would still all assume that I had any interest in leaving the career field I have loved so much already and become a boring JAG. Sure, the JAG Corps may be fun on active duty, but I only want active duty when so directed by the President, not every day.

So wait, you think JAG would be boring but you are going to law school... why?

Seriously, from everything I have read and heard being a JAG is like 1000 times more exciting than 90% of the lawyer jobs out there. Even when you are doing the one weekend a month, two weeks a year gig.

[spleenworship]

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

[Keithustus]

Seriously, from everything I have read and heard being a JAG is like 1000 times more exciting than 90% of the lawyer jobs out there. Even when you are doing the one weekend a month, two weeks a year gig.

Seeing and hearing is different than actually seeing a JAG at work and talking with them about their work. Trust me, at least in the reserve components while not mobilized, the JAGs are, while great people and indispensable, not having as much fun as most everyone else. MDMP for a JAG is copy & paste. CPXs for a JAG are 90% waiting for things to happen, then hoping there are enough facts to add to the discussion. Most of the rest of your time is spent supervising sexual-assault training, or property-loss investigation reports, or advising commanders about rank reductions and involuntary separations. To really have an exciting JAG life, you need to be on active duty, which I will not do.

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

Essentially yes. There is a body of law that protects all servicemembersof the reserve components from discrimination in hiring, in advancement, from termination. They apply whether you're a cashier or a senior executive at your company. That's why I posted the link to Employer Support to the Guard and Reserve above. ESGR.org. But not being a lawyer or having needed their services, I can't promise how it works. There are many conditions that are necessary for you to have the full protection of those laws, conditions like giving proper notice to your employer. For instance, you will be promoted as if you hadn't deployed during a deployment, but you must have properly told your employer about your upcoming deployment, been in good standing otherwise, and when you return, given your employer notice that you are back and will be available for work in a timely fashion (allowing for a transitional period to cool down after the deployment, if you choose).

So, reserve-component JAGs, you'll obviously help your soldiers with those laws, as well.

[spleenworship]

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

Essentially yes. There is a body of law that protects all servicemembersof the reserve components from discrimination in hiring, in advancement, from termination. They apply whether you're a cashier or a senior executive at your company. That's why I posted the link to Employer Support to the Guard and Reserve above. ESGR.org. But not being a lawyer or having needed their services, I can't promise how it works. There are many conditions that are necessary for you to have the full protection of those laws, conditions like giving proper notice to your employer. For instance, you will be promoted as if you hadn't deployed during a deployment, but you must have properly told your employer about your upcoming deployment, been in good standing otherwise, and when you return, given your employer notice that you are back and will be available for work in a timely fashion (allowing for a transitional period to cool down after the deployment, if you choose).

So, reserve-component JAGs, you'll obviously help your soldiers with those laws, as well.

Im applying active though, not reserve.

[Pdk7]

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

Thats the risk you're taking by applying to Active Duty.

[spleenworship]

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

Thats the risk you're taking by applying to Active Duty.

Man, talk about burning bridges behind you.

[Keithustus]

Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.

[Pdk7]

Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.

Thats also a good point. And its one of the reason why JAG (at least Army) is so selective. They want to make sure the people to whom they extend offers are serious about taking the job and aren't just trying to cover their bases.

[ScottRiqui]

Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.

I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.

My thinking is that you should give as much notice as you can, but if you go active duty, it'll be at least several years before you're job hunting in the civilian market again. At that point, the potential damage from leaving your last civilian job will be pretty minimal; employers know that people have to work while waiting to find out if they've been accepted for military service, and that when they *do* get accepted, they often need to make the transition right away.

[Keithustus]

I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.

Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?

[spleenworship]

I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.

Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?

I could get a on offer in a few weeks for a job next fall with a DAs office or firm... Then get selected in January for AD and pass all the medical stuff and whatnot and finally know for sure I'm going to be a JA as late as June.


ETA: or even September or October if I'm an alternate who needs a waiver. At least, this is my understanding.

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.

Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?

The Yoda-esque syntax here has me a little confused.

Are you asking about how we get notified of acceptance in the JAG Corps? At least in the Air Force, the SJA that conducted the interview will call you once the results are official. From there, the wheels start turning with JAX and the accessions process (MEPS and all that other fun stuff).

[buckyj420]

I was wondering if any of you might be willing to review my motivational statement. I don't want to muddy the waters here so if your willing I have posted it in a separate thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=214451

[Esquire]

It would be a grade reduction because in the Army, JAG is a completely separate branch from most of the officer branches with which civilians are familiar: infantry, armor, logistics, ordnance, etc. If an officer wishes to change to JAG (or the chaplain corps or become an Army doctor), they must end their original commission and earn a new one in those fields. Rank at the start of service for those branches is determined by civilian education and experience. Lawyers just out of law school are O-1s or -2s and typically become O-3 during their first assignment after completing the JAG basic school. I start law school this month, and when I graduate, I likely will have already have become an O-4. I've been told that it doesn't work that way in the Marines, though, but I don't think I've met a Marine JAG before so can't personally confirm. I've been told that in the Navy, they're O-1 once they graduate law school and pin O-2 they day they arrive for JAG school.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Keithustus]

[quote="Esquire]You have no idea what you're talking about.[/quote]

I had been told it works like the Chaplain and Medical Corps, as that process has been explained to me by Chaplains and doctors who have gone through that process. Not wanting to become a JAG, it never concerned me to confirm the second-hand accounts.

Maybe you'd like to help us all out?

[Esquire]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I had been told it works like the Chaplain and Medical Corps, as that process has been explained to me by Chaplains and doctors who have gone through that process. Not wanting to become a JAG, it never concerned me to confirm the second-hand accounts.

Maybe you'd like to help us all out?

You should just recant your speculation and assumptions that you keep posting as facts.

[Keithustus]

You should just recant your speculation and assumptions that you keep posting as facts.

Perhaps you're assuming that people will take words out of context, which is their fault. You should just recant your dismissal and refusal to help readers of this forum, and find relevant facts, if you know how to find any, such as the following:

Persons receiving original appointments as Reserve officers of the Army with assignment to the JAGC will be appointed in the
highest grade entitled under 10 USC 3359 as follows:

Appointment grades
Commissioned Service Credit: 3 years or more, but less than 7 years
Appointment Grade: First Lieutenant
Commissioned Service Credit: 7 years or more, but less than 14 years
Appointment Grade: Captain
Commissioned Service Credit: 14 years or more, but less than 21 years
Appointment Grade: Major
Commissioned Service Credit: 21 years or more, but less than 23 years
Appointment Grade: Lieutenant Colonel
Commissioned Service Credit: 23 years or more
Appointment Grade: Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel as determined by HQDA.

Notes:
In determining the appointment grade of a prospective JAGC officer, the years of commissioned service credit will be the sum of all credit awarded for constructive service credit and prior commissioned service under paragraphs (2), (3), and (4) below. A period of time will be counted only once when computing credit. Qualifying periods of less than one full year will be proportionately credited.

Constructive service credit will be computed and awarded as follows:
Constructive service credit
Qualifications: (a) Award of the first professional law degree (J.D. or LL.B) by a law school accredited by the American Bar Association
(ABA) at the time the applicant received the degree.
Credit: 3 years
Qualifications: (b) Special legal experience in unusual cases, based on the needs of the Army command or activity to which the appointee will be assigned.
Credit: One–half year for each year of qualifying experience, up to a maximum of 3 years credit.

Notes:
Requests for such credit will accompany the application for appointment and will fully justify the unique needs of the command or activity and the special
qualifications of the person to be appointed. Periods spent in an active status or on AD may not be counted when computing constructive service credit.

Credit for prior commissioned service will be computed as follows:
Prior commissioned service credit
Qualifications: (a) Active duty commissioned service (other than as a commissioned warrant officer) to include periods of annual training or other active duty for training performed while a member of any component of the military services.
Credit: 1 year for each year of service
Qualifications: (b) Commissioned service (other than as a commissioned warrant officer) in an active status, while serving in any component of the military services, but not on extended active duty.
Credit: 1 year for each year of service

Excellent, so for anyone looking to switch to JAG, at least, you aren't categorically penalized for time spent in other branches/services, at least not to the extent as I had been told. (E.g. a 25-year old CPT who rebranches to JAG will not have enough years accrued to remain a CPT.)

Now if only someone who had actual knowledge of those matters, and not me who had only heard about it from unreliable sources and had to review the ARs myself, had provided that, the internet and the professional obligations of those seeking entry to or already members of a bar, would have worked.

[Esquire]

I didn't refuse to help anyone. I just successfully tasked you out to prove yourself wrong. Now we have the right answer. There, I just helped everyone.

[Pdk7]

Now if only someone who had actual knowledge of those matters, and not me who had only heard about it from unreliable sources and had to review the ARs myself, had provided that, the internet and the professional obligations of those seeking entry to or already members of a bar, would have worked.[/quote]


You're starting law school, and you're in a forum filled with lawyers or people who are pursuing the profession. One thing you should know about our profession is that you should always be looking up the facts and answers for yourself, to the extent possible, before relying on the words of others, reliable or unreliable. In fact, no matter what your source is, you should be doing your own research. You should be relying on word of mouth to point you in the right direction. Here in this forum we share advice derived from our own personal experiences, but you'll notice that most of us qualify our statements with "in my experience" or "I've heard" or links to the resources from which we get our information, as you have just done. You also need to learn to sift the information to determine what is useful or credible and what isn't before you make an assertion.

I say all that to say, don't blame us or the internet for not giving you the information you wanted. You're going to be a lawyer. You need to learn how to find it yourself. Which is what I think Esquire was trying to get you to see.

[spleenworship]

Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?

[Fed_Atty]

Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?

I would not mention it at all. You are looking for them to offer you a commission. If and when you get the offer, there may be a time when you need to go into it, possibly at MEPS, but not necessarily. Absolutely never lie. Absolutely never leave out a critical fact if it pertains to the question that is being asked. However, there is no need to volunteer information that can only hurt you at this stage.

[spleenworship]

Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?

I would not mention it at all. You are looking for them to offer you a commission. If and when you get the offer, there may be a time when you need to go into it, possibly at MEPS, but not necessarily. Absolutely never lie. Absolutely never leave out a critical fact if it pertains to the question that is being asked. However, there is no need to volunteer information that can only hurt you at this stage.

Good point. Now I just have to figure out how to explain 15 years of not joining a service. They're going to wonder "why now?" when they read my application. Hmmm...

[Fed_Atty]

Good point. Now I just have to figure out how to explain 15 years of not joining a service. They're going to wonder "why now?" when they read my application. Hmmm...

Don't overthink it. They will look at your entire application package, school, grades, LSAT (still not sure why they look at this, but they do and even keep a running average for each board) structured interview, motivational statement etc. I would be surprised if they spend much, if any, time thinking about why you waited to join. Bottom line, either your package fits the JAG corps or it doesn't.

[run1t0ut]

Hey all. Thanks for the wealth of knowledge here. I have a few questions about what happens after you go to officer school before JAG school and then your first tour, esp. w/ the sequestration going on. I'm sorry if it's been discussed already. It's a bit tough to find what I'm specifically looking for under the present circumstances. Having gone through about 50 pages of this topic, I now realize how little I know, and the longevity of this topic is impressive!

I received my recommendation from the Oct. 2012 Navy Board in December. I finally got approval and will be taking the oath next Tuesday. My tentative date for ODS is in November.

1. How/when is your date for NJS determined?

2. How/when is your first tour determined?

3. It seems like b/c of the sequestration people are being deferred. Is that deferral date related to JAG school or officer school or the first tour?

4. Should I be looking for a job to fill in the gap? I originally expected the gap to be less than 6 months and so planned to either volunteer or take care of my father who is disabled, but it seems like maybe I should look for something more long term?

5. When is it too late to back out/what would it take to leave? I'm pretty determined to be a JAG, but my parents are not the most supportive of this career choice and I guess oddly enough this information is what they want for reassurance.

What I'm primarily looking for is information regarding the timeline after taking the oath, especially with the sequestration, so any information you can share would be amazing.

Apologies for being particularly clueless. My life has been rather interesting in very unfortunate ways for the past 10 months and I honestly just put my head down to get stuff down. I'm just now dipping my toes into what JAG entails (outside of the basics) for me and my family. I'm also happy to share my stats and my experiences in applying for JAG if anyone wants to know.