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Hey - I figured I would get the ball rolling on this. Anyone started mass mailing for 3L OCI or is it too early? I’ve already seen one job posting on my law school’s Symplicity for L&W.

My school also has L&W on its Symplicity. No info on whether they’re hiring in a particular practice group though.

Also, I think nearly all of my school’s non-IP 3L OCI firms are interviewing for their litigation departments. I’m curious if that’s the case in other places too

I’m afraid it might be too early to apply but I’m not sure...

For what it's worth, I also think it's too early to apply. I would focus your time on making connections w/ lawyers who may be able to help you in a few months. I'm a midlevel at a big firm, and we don't have a good picture of hiring until after the summer associates have finished their program and we've handed out offers. Other firms may be different, of course. I would strongly recommend reaching out to alums, if possible, at different firms with requests to talk/coffee/lunch and express an interest in their practice. It may not lead to much success but (it sound corny) all you need is one yes. Anything you can do now and over the next few weeks could help you get that yes. Here's a sample email to send that may help you think of ways to make those connections now: https://biglawadvice.com/2018/10/09/sample-email-for-alums/

Recent grad here who did 3L OCI without a 2L SA. I spent late June preparing all of my applications and sent most of them out (about 60) the Monday after the 4th of July. A few firms told me that it was too early and when to reapply, but most either expressed interest or dinged me either that week or the following week. I ended up getting my first offer in late July.

For those who did get a biglaw job without a 2L SA what helped the most. I know networking is huge but was it better to talk to partners or associates. Managed to pull a great 2L at a T14 after a mediocre 1L so trying to maximize chances this time around. Also would love to hear what the application/interview process was like.

biglaw_advice wrote:For what it's worth, I also think it's too early to apply. I would focus your time on making connections w/ lawyers who may be able to help you in a few months. I'm a midlevel at a big firm, and we don't have a good picture of hiring until after the summer associates have finished their program and we've handed out offers. Other firms may be different, of course. I would strongly recommend reaching out to alums, if possible, at different firms with requests to talk/coffee/lunch and express an interest in their practice. It may not lead to much success but (it sound corny) all you need is one yes. Anything you can do now and over the next few weeks could help you get that yes. Here's a sample email to send that may help you think of ways to make those connections now: https://biglawadvice.com/2018/10/09/sample-email-for-alums/

So it wouldn't be weird to start reaching out to genuinely get more info on a law firm's practice areas by talking to people? Also, should we reach out to partners or associates? If associates, should they be more mid-level/senior? I'm honestly just worried that reaching out and then having to email about a position is odd - would the two or three weeks delay be awkward between learning about them and then asking for help?

What helped the most: Networking like crazy and sending out as many applications as possible. Some of my interviews I got from random applications and others I got from someone I had coffee with who knew someone at a firm that might need to hire 3Ls. Just network with anyone that will get coffee with you. There's very little to lose at this point and a lot to gain if you can pull it off.

Application/Interview process: Very firm dependent. Some firms went straight to a "callback" and that was what the entire decision was based off of. Some firms stuck to the 2L SA application process where it was travel for a screener at your own cost, travel for a paid callback, and then either offer/rejection. Other firms did an informal screener with a "we may have a need and we loved meeting you, we'll be in touch." I ended up getting an offer relatively early that I was happy with so I never followed up with this last group. I don't think I would've been very successful if I had though, it just seemed like they were in no hurry to hire.

I hear the "grab coffee" with people thing a lot for 3L hiring, but what if you're not in the market you want to be in this summer?

For people that may read this thread in the future, then you probably didn't plan your 2L summer very well. If you're just looking to trade up that's one thing, but if you actually don't have a 2L summer job that you can turn into a full time position, you probably should've found a way to be in the market that you're trying to get into.

But as for what you can do now? Phone calls with alum who are in the area would probably be your best bet. They'll also know other alum at other firms or have their own friends in the area that they may be able to set you up with, depending on how helpful the individual alum is.

Anonymous User wrote:For people that may read this thread in the future, then you probably didn't plan your 2L summer very well. If you're just looking to trade up that's one thing, but if you actually don't have a 2L summer job that you can turn into a full time position, you probably should've found a way to be in the market that you're trying to get into.

But as for what you can do now? Phone calls with alum who are in the area would probably be your best bet. They'll also know other alum at other firms or have their own friends in the area that they may be able to set you up with, depending on how helpful the individual alum is.

Wow, way to be on your high horse. Did you ever consider that circumstances can change between the fall and the summer that warrant someone having a pressing interest in being in a different location than they originally chose? I know you directed that to future readers, but it was clearly directed at current readers. My position now will lead to a full time position, it just isn't where I want to be any longer for personal reasons.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:For people that may read this thread in the future, then you probably didn't plan your 2L summer very well. If you're just looking to trade up that's one thing, but if you actually don't have a 2L summer job that you can turn into a full time position, you probably should've found a way to be in the market that you're trying to get into.

But as for what you can do now? Phone calls with alum who are in the area would probably be your best bet. They'll also know other alum at other firms or have their own friends in the area that they may be able to set you up with, depending on how helpful the individual alum is.

Wow, way to be on your high horse. Did you ever consider that circumstances can change between the fall and the summer that warrant someone having a pressing interest in being in a different location than they originally chose? I know you directed that to future readers, but it was clearly directed at current readers. My position now will lead to a full time position, it just isn't where I want to be any longer for personal reasons.

I'm in the same boat. I will likely receive an offer at a great firm in a decent location, but for personal reasons, I'm looking for options in a different locale.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:For people that may read this thread in the future, then you probably didn't plan your 2L summer very well. If you're just looking to trade up that's one thing, but if you actually don't have a 2L summer job that you can turn into a full time position, you probably should've found a way to be in the market that you're trying to get into.

But as for what you can do now? Phone calls with alum who are in the area would probably be your best bet. They'll also know other alum at other firms or have their own friends in the area that they may be able to set you up with, depending on how helpful the individual alum is.

Wow, way to be on your high horse. Did you ever consider that circumstances can change between the fall and the summer that warrant someone having a pressing interest in being in a different location than they originally chose? I know you directed that to future readers, but it was clearly directed at current readers. My position now will lead to a full time position, it just isn't where I want to be any longer for personal reasons.

Right, so there are a lot of different people who want to do 3L OCI. There are people who wanted a firm but didn't get one and end up working something public interest/1L summer-like, people who got a firm but just want to trade up, people who want to trade geographic locations, etc. Or any combination of those. And this topic shows up multiple times a year around this time and immediately after 2L OCI in August. I made a point for future readers because someone in the future is going to search this topic trying to see what they should to do plan 3L OCI and it may be ultimately helpful to someone.
My advice clearly doesn't apply to you and I qualified it in several ways that don't include you (future readers, if you don't have a 2L summer job that you can turn into a full time position). I also mentioned what I thought your best bet was in the next paragraph. If these threads were only to help the OP specifically and not didn't include general advice for the dozens of other people who have similar problems but don't post, this site would not be nearly as useful as it is.

Anonymous User wrote:What helped the most: Networking like crazy and sending out as many applications as possible. Some of my interviews I got from random applications and others I got from someone I had coffee with who knew someone at a firm that might need to hire 3Ls. Just network with anyone that will get coffee with you. There's very little to lose at this point and a lot to gain if you can pull it off.

Application/Interview process: Very firm dependent. Some firms went straight to a "callback" and that was what the entire decision was based off of. Some firms stuck to the 2L SA application process where it was travel for a screener at your own cost, travel for a paid callback, and then either offer/rejection. Other firms did an informal screener with a "we may have a need and we loved meeting you, we'll be in touch." I ended up getting an offer relatively early that I was happy with so I never followed up with this last group. I don't think I would've been very successful if I had though, it just seemed like they were in no hurry to hire.

I second ALL of this.

Networking is the ONLY way recruiters and people at the firm will really remember you when it comes time to pull 3L resumes from the pile and may even lead to those folks directly reaching out to you for your resume (which is what happened to me). I didn't even necessarily network like crazy, but I was well known in my legal market with lawyers who were active in the community and with my law school career services folks. They knew about openings at a biglaw firm and directly recommended me and the recruiter at the same firm knew me and liked me from the times we had spoken (as did a partner at the firm), and they asked me directly for my resume. I went straight to a callback and got an offer the next week.

At GULC at least, 3L OCI is almost entirely about poaching other firms’ summer associates and to a lesser extent Fed honors.

If you are counting on 3L OCI because you didn’t score 2L SA, stop.

Get networking.

Davis Polk Finance and Cravath Executive Comps are listed on my school’s Symplicity

Anonymous User wrote:

biglaw_advice wrote:For what it's worth, I also think it's too early to apply. I would focus your time on making connections w/ lawyers who may be able to help you in a few months. I'm a midlevel at a big firm, and we don't have a good picture of hiring until after the summer associates have finished their program and we've handed out offers. Other firms may be different, of course. I would strongly recommend reaching out to alums, if possible, at different firms with requests to talk/coffee/lunch and express an interest in their practice. It may not lead to much success but (it sound corny) all you need is one yes. Anything you can do now and over the next few weeks could help you get that yes. Here's a sample email to send that may help you think of ways to make those connections now: https://biglawadvice.com/2018/10/09/sample-email-for-alums/

So it wouldn't be weird to start reaching out to genuinely get more info on a law firm's practice areas by talking to people? Also, should we reach out to partners or associates? If associates, should they be more mid-level/senior? I'm honestly just worried that reaching out and then having to email about a position is odd - would the two or three weeks delay be awkward between learning about them and then asking for help?

No - I don't think it would be weird at all to reach out just to make some touch points with different lawyers. I'd recommend reaching out to associates first and then ask if they recommend speaking to certain partners. That said, I would use alums from your law school as the primary filter.

Lawyers I work with know how the "game" is played - yes people will reach out to us to gain knowledge on our practice, but if they are a rising 2L or 3L, I understand they are looking for an in at the firm. And that's ok! It's part of the process. I value people who reach out and show an interest in the firm - even if it's for job hunting purposes. So many applicants will submit their application online, through Symplicity, etc. and then call it a day.

That's the path of least resistance. When you reach out, there will be awkward convos and it may feel awkward to reach out a few weeks after a call when you apply - do it anyway. Corny and trite but it only takes one person to like you.

biglaw_advice wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

biglaw_advice wrote:For what it's worth, I also think it's too early to apply. I would focus your time on making connections w/ lawyers who may be able to help you in a few months. I'm a midlevel at a big firm, and we don't have a good picture of hiring until after the summer associates have finished their program and we've handed out offers. Other firms may be different, of course. I would strongly recommend reaching out to alums, if possible, at different firms with requests to talk/coffee/lunch and express an interest in their practice. It may not lead to much success but (it sound corny) all you need is one yes. Anything you can do now and over the next few weeks could help you get that yes. Here's a sample email to send that may help you think of ways to make those connections now: https://biglawadvice.com/2018/10/09/sample-email-for-alums/

So it wouldn't be weird to start reaching out to genuinely get more info on a law firm's practice areas by talking to people? Also, should we reach out to partners or associates? If associates, should they be more mid-level/senior? I'm honestly just worried that reaching out and then having to email about a position is odd - would the two or three weeks delay be awkward between learning about them and then asking for help?

No - I don't think it would be weird at all to reach out just to make some touch points with different lawyers. I'd recommend reaching out to associates first and then ask if they recommend speaking to certain partners. That said, I would use alums from your law school as the primary filter.

Lawyers I work with know how the "game" is played - yes people will reach out to us to gain knowledge on our practice, but if they are a rising 2L or 3L, I understand they are looking for an in at the firm. And that's ok! It's part of the process. I value people who reach out and show an interest in the firm - even if it's for job hunting purposes. So many applicants will submit their application online, through Symplicity, etc. and then call it a day.

That's the path of least resistance. When you reach out, there will be awkward convos and it may feel awkward to reach out a few weeks after a call when you apply - do it anyway. Corny and trite but it only takes one person to like you.

Thank you for responding! This has been extremely helpful to me thus far. I was wondering if it makes a difference to meet in-person, say for coffee, vs. talking on the phone? I've heard mixed reviews but most seem to say in-person is best. Thoughts?

Flarmanarnar wrote:

biglaw_advice wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

biglaw_advice wrote:For what it's worth, I also think it's too early to apply. I would focus your time on making connections w/ lawyers who may be able to help you in a few months. I'm a midlevel at a big firm, and we don't have a good picture of hiring until after the summer associates have finished their program and we've handed out offers. Other firms may be different, of course. I would strongly recommend reaching out to alums, if possible, at different firms with requests to talk/coffee/lunch and express an interest in their practice. It may not lead to much success but (it sound corny) all you need is one yes. Anything you can do now and over the next few weeks could help you get that yes. Here's a sample email to send that may help you think of ways to make those connections now: https://biglawadvice.com/2018/10/09/sample-email-for-alums/

So it wouldn't be weird to start reaching out to genuinely get more info on a law firm's practice areas by talking to people? Also, should we reach out to partners or associates? If associates, should they be more mid-level/senior? I'm honestly just worried that reaching out and then having to email about a position is odd - would the two or three weeks delay be awkward between learning about them and then asking for help?

No - I don't think it would be weird at all to reach out just to make some touch points with different lawyers. I'd recommend reaching out to associates first and then ask if they recommend speaking to certain partners. That said, I would use alums from your law school as the primary filter.

Lawyers I work with know how the "game" is played - yes people will reach out to us to gain knowledge on our practice, but if they are a rising 2L or 3L, I understand they are looking for an in at the firm. And that's ok! It's part of the process. I value people who reach out and show an interest in the firm - even if it's for job hunting purposes. So many applicants will submit their application online, through Symplicity, etc. and then call it a day.

That's the path of least resistance. When you reach out, there will be awkward convos and it may feel awkward to reach out a few weeks after a call when you apply - do it anyway. Corny and trite but it only takes one person to like you.

Thank you for responding! This has been extremely helpful to me thus far. I was wondering if it makes a difference to meet in-person, say for coffee, vs. talking on the phone? I've heard mixed reviews but most seem to say in-person is best. Thoughts?

Awesome - happy to help. I would recommend in-person. It creates more of a connection and generally facilitates a better conversation that will increase your chances of making a good, lasting impression that can help you get a foot in the door. That said, if in-person isn't an option then I think a phone call is still worth doing. In my experience, phone calls were a bit more awkward because it's (of course) more difficult to pick up on the nuances of the other person and when you're on the phone, the lawyer is probably watching emails come into their inbox and a bit distracted.

Anonymous User wrote:Davis Polk Finance and Cravath Executive Comps are listed on my school’s Symplicity

To the extent that this is useful info to anyone, I think that most of the Cravath ECB associates are 3L hires (since they often don't get enough summer voluntarily slotting in). I think last summer not a single SA rotated into ECB so they definitely need people.

Can someone comment on the job postings for first years a little more re changing 2L SA firm? I’m at a V5 ny SA looking to change for practice area reasons - should I wait until I have an offer in hand from my 2L SA firm to apply or is now the time to start?

I started applying before I got offer. I just said they haven’t started making offers yet but I don’t expect a problem and nobody really cared.

For trying to change markets for personal reasons, how did you address this when reaching out to alums? I assume something along the lines of I’m looking to switch to X market for personal reasons, looking for get a feel for the market?

Also, is anyone planning on starting to mass mail soon? And if you are, are you doing a longer cover letter or an email cover letter?

Quick networking question. I know that alumni in your desired practice area is the best place to look for potential connections at a firm, but what's the next best pool of people to contact (if your school hasn't placed alumni in that practice at that firm)? Would that be alumni in tangential practice areas (so if I'm looking for a specific lit group, contacting alumni in another litigation practice), or is it better to contact attorneys in your desired practice area that didn't graduate from your school? Thank you.

Has anyone started mass mailing yet?