Fired summer associate Forum

[pithypike]

When dancing, hands often find their way onto a woman's waist. Movement down to hips is not atypical, but could be construed negatively by the recipient if the initiator has misread the situation.

There are gray areas in life, especially in the murkiness of socializing and early stages of romance. What one construes as groping could be construed by another as a typical step in escalating romance/intimacy.

This isn't really a big stretch.

I used to date a lot, and I never asked a woman for consent verbally, just read the cues and took the lead. No issues. I do agree with you that people who don't have this skillset should stay in their lane though; otherwise they may end up like this dude (assuming this is what happened.)

What you’ve described is initiating groping, based on what you think is consent. Now, maybe you personally read signals right in the dating context, and maybe you don’t. I don’t know. But that’s beside the point I’m trying to make.

What I’m saying is that at a work after party, it’s not a dating context, and it’s just not okay to assume consent to put your hands anywhere on anyone else, no matter how much of a twinkle you think you see in a woman’s eye or how she’s dancing. I just don’t think this should be a controversial line to draw.

I definitely read signals correctly

As to your second point, a wise man once said:

That's why you never, ever, ever initiate anything ever with anybody who is remotely tied to your professional environment.

[BeeTeeZ]

Somone please define "groping" in the context of dancing in a night club.

[cavalier1138]

Somone please define "groping" in the context of dancing in a night club.

Please provide an example of something that would be groping elsewhere, but wouldn't count at a nightclub (juts entertaining the assumption that the nightclub location is relevant).

[LaLiLuLeLo]

idk I’d put my hands on someone’s hips if I was dancing with them at a nightclub but uhhhh I wouldn’t do that at work

But that’s why I won’t make partner

[BeeTeeZ]

Somone please define "groping" in the context of dancing in a night club.

Please provide an example of something that would be groping elsewhere, but wouldn't count at a nightclub (juts entertaining the assumption that the nightclub location is relevant).

You punted, so I'll make it a little easier for you. Just try to define "groping."

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Love how these discussions alway leads to some anonymous dude flying in to imply he has lots of success with lots of ladies and never any complaints. So many dudes (not necessarily the dude above though, to his credit) see themselves in the shoes of the alleged groper, which is a fucked up premise to proceed from.

At least we don't have any mens rights folks ITT yet but give it time.

[pithypike]

Somone please define "groping" in the context of dancing in a night club.

Please provide an example of something that would be groping elsewhere, but wouldn't count at a nightclub (juts entertaining the assumption that the nightclub location is relevant).

You punted, so I'll make it a little easier for you. Just try to define "groping."

Halp seems to think it is any touching, but some groping can be consented to.

What you’ve described is initiating groping, based on what you think is consent

[pithypike]

Love how these discussions alway leads to some anonymous dude flying in to imply he has lots of success with lots of ladies and never any complaints. So many dudes (not necessarily the dude above though, to his credit) see themselves in the shoes of the alleged groper, which is a fucked up premise to proceed from.

At least we don't have any mens rights folks ITT yet but give it time.

TBF to me, I was just responding to somebody else who invited the debate. I do however sympathize with awkward men - men are told from a young age to be confident and direct, which women really do respond well to IME. If you lack the right social ability or are unfortunate looking, "confident and direct" ends up being a terrible sight to behold that makes women uncomfortable and those around you cringe.

That's kinda crappy. I'm glad to see social norms changing in this regard and think it will, once we've worked through this transitory period, be better for both sexes.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Love how these discussions alway leads to some anonymous dude flying in to imply he has lots of success with lots of ladies and never any complaints. So many dudes (not necessarily the dude above though, to his credit) see themselves in the shoes of the alleged groper, which is a fucked up premise to proceed from.

At least we don't have any mens rights folks ITT yet but give it time.

TBF to me, I was just responding to somebody else who invited the debate. I do however sympathize with awkward men - men are told from a young age to be confident and direct, which women really do respond well to IME. If you lack the right social ability or are unfortunate looking, "confident and direct" ends up being a terrible sight to behold that makes women uncomfortable and those around you cringe.

That's kinda crappy. I'm glad to see social norms changing in this regard and think it will, once we've worked through this transitory period, be better for both sexes.

Fair enough and understand the sympathy but the alleged gropee probably deserves some sympathy too. And unfortunately, while being taught to be a creep from a young age is a mitigating factor, going out and acting as a creep doesn't take place in a vacuum. It has an effect on women. I think it's failure to have sympathy for women when we immediately start questioning the details of the groping.

[pithypike]

Love how these discussions alway leads to some anonymous dude flying in to imply he has lots of success with lots of ladies and never any complaints. So many dudes (not necessarily the dude above though, to his credit) see themselves in the shoes of the alleged groper, which is a fucked up premise to proceed from.

At least we don't have any mens rights folks ITT yet but give it time.

TBF to me, I was just responding to somebody else who invited the debate. I do however sympathize with awkward men - men are told from a young age to be confident and direct, which women really do respond well to IME. If you lack the right social ability or are unfortunate looking, "confident and direct" ends up being a terrible sight to behold that makes women uncomfortable and those around you cringe.

That's kinda crappy. I'm glad to see social norms changing in this regard and think it will, once we've worked through this transitory period, be better for both sexes.

Fair enough and understand the sympathy but the alleged gropee probably deserves some sympathy too. And unfortunately, while being taught to be a creep from a young age is a mitigating factor, going out and acting as a creep doesn't take place in a vacuum. It has an effect on women. I think it's failure to have sympathy for women when we immediately start questioning the details of the groping.

No arguments there my friend.

[QContinuum]

When dancing, hands often find their way onto a woman's waist. Movement down to hips is not atypical, but could be construed negatively by the recipient if the initiator has misread the situation.

There are gray areas in life, especially in the murkiness of socializing and early stages of romance. What one construes as groping could be construed by another as a typical step in escalating romance/intimacy.

The situation is a firm event. A firm event is not the "early stages of romance." Attending a firm event while female - even *gasp* "socializing" at a firm event while female - does not imply any interest on the woman's part in "escalating romance/intimacy" with anyone, let alone any specific male attendee.

I used to date a lot, and I never asked a woman for consent verbally, just read the cues and took the lead. No issues. I do agree with you that people who don't have this skillset should stay in their lane though; otherwise they may end up like this dude (assuming this is what happened.)

It's hard to imagine two scenarios as different and far apart as 1) a romantic date, and 2) a firm event. The two are night and day.

On a date, you know your date is (or at least was, prior to the date) interested in you. Of course, as you know, agreeing to a date doesn't (remotely) equate to agreeing to physical contact/making out/etc. Still, you can reasonably interpret nonverbal cues in light of the fact that your date is likely to be interested in you. Obviously, if the date goes well, and you've been flirting back and forth all night, and you lean in for a kiss, and your date sees this and doesn't pull away, you don't need to stop and ask her, "for the avoidance of doubt, do you consent to being kissed by me?!"

In contrast, at a work event, the typical attendee is there to network and socialize in a professional context. Even if one of your colleagues is actually interested in you romantically, they are extremely unlikely to want to treat the work event as date night (who in the world wants to date under the watchful eyes of their work colleagues and bosses?!). You are best served by keeping things friendly but professional. If you're interested in a colleague/think they're interested in you, and company policy doesn't prohibit it, you are free to ask them out at an appropriate time afterward.

[pithypike]

When dancing, hands often find their way onto a woman's waist. Movement down to hips is not atypical, but could be construed negatively by the recipient if the initiator has misread the situation.

There are gray areas in life, especially in the murkiness of socializing and early stages of romance. What one construes as groping could be construed by another as a typical step in escalating romance/intimacy.

The situation is a firm event. A firm event is not the "early stages of romance." Attending a firm event while female - even *gasp* "socializing" at a firm event while female - does not imply any interest on the woman's part in "escalating romance/intimacy" with anyone, let alone any specific male attendee.

I used to date a lot, and I never asked a woman for consent verbally, just read the cues and took the lead. No issues. I do agree with you that people who don't have this skillset should stay in their lane though; otherwise they may end up like this dude (assuming this is what happened.)

It's hard to imagine two scenarios as different and far apart as 1) a romantic date, and 2) a firm event. The two are night and day.

On a date, you know your date is (or at least was, prior to the date) interested in you. Of course, as you know, agreeing to a date doesn't (remotely) equate to agreeing to physical contact/making out/etc. Still, you can reasonably interpret nonverbal cues in light of the fact that your date is likely to be interested in you. Obviously, if the date goes well, and you've been flirting back and forth all night, and you lean in for a kiss, and your date sees this and doesn't pull away, you don't need to stop and ask her, "for the avoidance of doubt, do you consent to being kissed by me?!"

In contrast, at a work event, the typical attendee is there to network and socialize in a professional context. Even if one of your colleagues is actually interested in you romantically, they are extremely unlikely to want to treat the work event as date night (who in the world wants to date under the watchful eyes of their work colleagues and bosses?!). You are best served by keeping things friendly but professional. If you're interested in a colleague/think they're interested in you, and company policy doesn't prohibit it, you are free to ask them out at an appropriate time afterward.

Agreed. A super smart poster earlier said it well:

That's why you never, ever, ever initiate anything ever with anybody who is remotely tied to your professional environment.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just a random anon poster so nobody needs to take my word for it but I do know of an SA who was fired from biglaw for sexual harassment. I didn't personally witness this, but it's 100% not just some dude in a night club who put his hands on a woman's waist, although definitely don't ever do that to a co-worker anyway.

Not commenting on what firm or any other info.

To OP, can you come back from this? Maybe. As another poster mentioned, plenty politicians have done worse. Since it seems like the firm is staying tight-lipped, it's possible other firms won't know about this, so I suppose you have a shot at 3L OCI. Be aware that partners talk, and people have friends/connections across firms, so you at least need to switch states, if not practice areas too.

[Halp]

When dancing, hands often find their way onto a woman's waist. Movement down to hips is not atypical, but could be construed negatively by the recipient if the initiator has misread the situation.

There are gray areas in life, especially in the murkiness of socializing and early stages of romance. What one construes as groping could be construed by another as a typical step in escalating romance/intimacy.

The situation is a firm event. A firm event is not the "early stages of romance." Attending a firm event while female - even *gasp* "socializing" at a firm event while female - does not imply any interest on the woman's part in "escalating romance/intimacy" with anyone, let alone any specific male attendee.

I used to date a lot, and I never asked a woman for consent verbally, just read the cues and took the lead. No issues. I do agree with you that people who don't have this skillset should stay in their lane though; otherwise they may end up like this dude (assuming this is what happened.)

It's hard to imagine two scenarios as different and far apart as 1) a romantic date, and 2) a firm event. The two are night and day.

On a date, you know your date is (or at least was, prior to the date) interested in you. Of course, as you know, agreeing to a date doesn't (remotely) equate to agreeing to physical contact/making out/etc. Still, you can reasonably interpret nonverbal cues in light of the fact that your date is likely to be interested in you. Obviously, if the date goes well, and you've been flirting back and forth all night, and you lean in for a kiss, and your date sees this and doesn't pull away, you don't need to stop and ask her, "for the avoidance of doubt, do you consent to being kissed by me?!"

In contrast, at a work event, the typical attendee is there to network and socialize in a professional context. Even if one of your colleagues is actually interested in you romantically, they are extremely unlikely to want to treat the work event as date night (who in the world wants to date under the watchful eyes of their work colleagues and bosses?!). You are best served by keeping things friendly but professional. If you're interested in a colleague/think they're interested in you, and company policy doesn't prohibit it, you are free to ask them out at an appropriate time afterward.

Agreed. A super smart poster earlier said it well:

That's why you never, ever, ever initiate anything ever with anybody who is remotely tied to your professional environment.

Then why do you keep debating all this?

[pithypike]

Because Halp wrote this, which I view as a gross over-simplification and caricature of reality and culpability, none of which are as clearcut as some seem to believe.

(Cue the inevitable “but what if she was bumping and grinding? Exactly how sexily are women allowed to dance and still complain when they’re groped?? How am I supposed to know what women WANT???” debate.)

I'm also waiting for a conference call in Asia to kick off and don't have time to go for a run beforehand.

[Halp]

Because Halp wrote this, which I view as a gross over-simplification and caricature of reality and culpability, which is not as clear cut as some seem to believe.

(Cue the inevitable “but what if she was bumping and grinding? Exactly how sexily are women allowed to dance and still complain when they’re groped?? How am I supposed to know what women WANT???” debate.)

I'm also waiting for a conference call in Asia to kick off and don't have time to go for a run beforehand.

You did *exactly* what I said people would come do, but whatever, dude.

Edit: actually, there is one distinction - you expressed confidence that you know what women want, not uncertainty.

[pithypike]

I don't agree. I think it's important to recognize nuances of social interactions. You pretend they are clearcut and straightforward, which is clearly and objectively not the case.

To answer your question, if a woman is, for example, grinding on a guy, the answer as to whether it is appropriate for that man to put his hand on her hips (something I believe you would consider groping, though it may be acceptable if said grope was consented to) is not immediately clear. Obviously

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to jump in because I was literally in this nightclub situation. Am young male associate, got invited to a non work sponsored meetup at a club with some other employees. Young female coworker proceeds to put her arms around my neck and dance in front of me. Naturally, my hands rested on her waist and we danced a little bit. And that was that. According to some of you I’m a sex offender now? I mean, there has to be a qualitative difference between that club encounter and if I just randomly put my hands on her waist in the copy room! And I think that’s the point some here are trying to make.

[Halp]

I don't agree. I think it's important to recognize nuances of social interactions. You pretend they are clearcut and straightforward, which is clearly and objectively not the case.

To answer your question, if a woman is, for example, grinding on a guy, the answer as to whether it is appropriate for that man to put his hand on her hips (something I believe you would consider groping, though it may be acceptable if said grope was consented to) is not immediately clear. Obviously

If a woman is grinding on a guy at a firm after party she’s initiating groping behavior/groping, just as inappropriately as if the roles were reversed imo. But that’s not what anyone was ever talking about here - except of course in my prediction that people would fall back to the “what if she was bunping and grinding?!” hypo. I cannot for the life of me tell why we assume the alleged gropee actually initiated the groping. Anything to keep defending the poor poor OP, I guess.

[pithypike]

I don't agree. I think it's important to recognize nuances of social interactions. You pretend they are clearcut and straightforward, which is clearly and objectively not the case.

To answer your question, if a woman is, for example, grinding on a guy, the answer as to whether it is appropriate for that man to put his hand on her hips (something I believe you would consider groping, though it may be acceptable if said grope was consented to) is not immediately clear. Obviously

If a woman is grinding on a guy at a firm after party she’s initiating groping behavior/groping, just as inappropriately as if the roles were reversed imo. But that’s not what anyone was ever talking about here - except of course in my prediction that people would fall back to the “what if she was bunping and grinding?!” hypo. I cannot for the life of me tell why we assume the alleged gropee actually initiated the groping. Anything to keep defending the poor poor OP, I guess.

I'm speaking in generics, not so much as to this specific OP.

So in that situation, two people dancing, her grinding on him, what is the scope of consent for his hands? You seem to think the answer is extremely clear cut. What is that answer?

[nixy]

Could you not have this discussion? It's just a bad look to want to be told exactly what the scope of someone's hands should be under this circumstance, what about this circumstance, what about this circumstance... And it's also getting incredibly removed from the actual topic of the thread. What *exactly* the proper scope of hands while dancing in a nightclub matters to this topic only if you want to argue that somehow whatever happened (which we don't actually have any idea about) wasn't "really" groping.

[Halp]

I don't agree. I think it's important to recognize nuances of social interactions. You pretend they are clearcut and straightforward, which is clearly and objectively not the case.

To answer your question, if a woman is, for example, grinding on a guy, the answer as to whether it is appropriate for that man to put his hand on her hips (something I believe you would consider groping, though it may be acceptable if said grope was consented to) is not immediately clear. Obviously

If a woman is grinding on a guy at a firm after party she’s initiating groping behavior/groping, just as inappropriately as if the roles were reversed imo. But that’s not what anyone was ever talking about here - except of course in my prediction that people would fall back to the “what if she was bunping and grinding?!” hypo. I cannot for the life of me tell why we assume the alleged gropee actually initiated the groping. Anything to keep defending the poor poor OP, I guess.

I'm speaking in generics, not so much as to this specific OP.

So in that situation, two people dancing, her grinding on him, what is the scope of consent for his hands? You seem to think the answer is extremely clear cut. What is that answer?

I’m really not interested in generics. I’ve been talking about this situation (and responding to others’ posts about it) this whole time.

That said, I think anyone who is truly grinding on someone else (bodily touching) is consenting to...exactly as much touching as they initiated. Anything with your own hands, assume at your peril. Grinding is not unequivocal consent to any specific other act. (I personally think it’s a yucky bad way to dance because there’s usually no indication people consent to be grinded ON, but that seems not to bother you.) Which is why I have repeatedly stated that absent *unequivocal* consent, it doesn’t matter how this person was dancing/some generic person dances.

Speaking “generically,” as you wish to, you don’t get to decide that dancing women are implying consent for you to touch them in all sorts of new ways. This is particularly true at work events. It’s great and all if acting like Date Mike gets you all the ladies or whatever, but that doesn’t make it right.

[QContinuum]

Just wanted to jump in because I was literally in this nightclub situation. Am young male associate, got invited to a non work sponsored meetup at a club with some other employees. Young female coworker proceeds to put her arms around my neck and dance in front of me. Naturally, my hands rested on her waist and we danced a little bit. And that was that. According to some of you I’m a sex offender now? I mean, there has to be a qualitative difference between that club encounter and if I just randomly put my hands on her waist in the copy room! And I think that’s the point some here are trying to make.

Come on, no one is going to confuse "she put her arms around my neck while dancing with me, naturally, I put my hands on her waist" with inappropriate groping. For one thing, in your example the woman initiated the physical contact, not you; and you reciprocated with pretty much the same degree of physical contact.

Contra what many "men's rights" alarmists say, I have yet to hear of a case where any man was disciplined (let alone fired) for "groping" someone when their behavior was actually innocent. (If such a case were to ever happen, the man would be on Faux News the next day.) Quite the contrary, "borderline" behavior is almost always swept under the rug, and even clearly inappropriate behavior is (wrongly) swept under the rug more often than not. For a SA to get fired - and SAs typically have job security almost on par with equity partners - I'm sure it was egregious behavior, like snaking-hand-under-skirt level behavior.

[Halp]

Just wanted to jump in because I was literally in this nightclub situation. Am young male associate, got invited to a non work sponsored meetup at a club with some other employees. Young female coworker proceeds to put her arms around my neck and dance in front of me. Naturally, my hands rested on her waist and we danced a little bit. And that was that. According to some of you I’m a sex offender now? I mean, there has to be a qualitative difference between that club encounter and if I just randomly put my hands on her waist in the copy room! And I think that’s the point some here are trying to make.

Come on, no one is going to confuse "she put her arms around my neck while dancing with me, naturally, I put my hands on her waist" with inappropriate groping. For one thing, in your example the woman initiated the physical contact, not you; and you reciprocated with pretty much the same degree of physical contact.

Contra what many "men's rights" alarmists say, I have yet to hear of a case where any man was disciplined (let alone fired) for "groping" someone when their behavior was actually innocent. (If such a case were to ever happen, the man would be on Faux News the next day.) Quite the contrary, "borderline" behavior is almost always swept under the rug, and even clearly inappropriate behavior is (wrongly) swept under the rug more often than not. For a SA to get fired - and SAs typically have job security almost on par with equity partners - I'm sure it was egregious behavior, like snaking-hand-under-skirt level behavior.

Yeah, people are twisting my “keep your hands to yourself absent *clear* consent, especially at work events” rule into “nobody should ever touch anyone ever.” I also love the undercurrent that always surfaces, and has here, of “Well obviously I couldn’t possibly be expected to explicitly ASK someone if I can touch them! Why? Because that wouldn’t be SEXY to me, that’s why!”

[QContinuum]

I don't agree. I think it's important to recognize nuances of social interactions. You pretend they are clearcut and straightforward, which is clearly and objectively not the case.

But it really IS that clear when we're talking about firm events. I mean, for crying out loud, you expressly agreed with my post above! What part of your agreement are you now walking back?

There is no "nuance". A firm event is a firm event. It is the polar opposite of date night.

To answer your question, if a woman is, for example, grinding on a guy, the answer as to whether it is appropriate for that man to put his hand on her hips (something I believe you would consider groping, though it may be acceptable if said grope was consented to) is not immediately clear. Obviously

The answer is, in fact, crystal clear. If you (generic "you") dance with a woman at a firm event, and she starts grinding on you out of the blue, she is behaving inappropriately. She then runs the risk of being a sexual harasser (a rather high risk, because again, at work events folks aren't typically looking for romance, let alone intimate contact). If the grinding is unwelcome to you, she has sexually harassed, and arguably assaulted, you. If the grinding proves to be a pleasant surprise to you, then she hasn't sexually harassed you, but her behavior is still inappropriate at a work event. (The exact same would be true if the genders were reversed, or if this was two women or two men.)

If you reciprocate in turn, then while you have not sexually harassed or assaulted anyone, you have also behaved unprofessionally and inappropriately because, again, this is a work event.

This stuff isn't rocket science, seriously.