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anonymous2898

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Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by anonymous2898 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:54 pm

Hello,

I have a summer associate position coming up this summer (in NYC), but I was hoping to take a summer class at my home school so that I can knock out a few credits. (I took a break during law school so I need to catch up on a few credits). Anyway, my home school is offering a summer class that meets on two weekends, Friday-Sunday, for 3 credits. Obviously, this means I would have to take off two Fridays at my NYC firm. Is it possible? Advisable? Forget about it? Even if they allow me to do it, would it have any impact on my chances of getting a full-time offer at the end of the summer? Obviously, I'd be happy to make up the lost hours by staying late at the office during the week or coming into the office on a weekend.

Anyone have a similar experience? How'd it turn out?

Thanks!

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:54 pm

You can do it, but why risk it for a few credits. Making up the time in the evenings misses the point. Your job as a summer is to consistently impress, not to do work that I expect to give to a client. Any time you're not present misses a chance to be top of mind. Will you lose an offer? Probably not. But when I'm submitting my evaluation of you, it may be qualified- particularly if I host an event that weekend that you couldn't attend.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by anonymous2898 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:23 pm

Thanks for your advice. Just to play Devil's Advocate: I believe SAs who split-summers at two firms only spend like 8 weeks at each firm. I'd be spending the full 10 weeks at my firm, minus two Fridays. Is it unreasonable to assume that if split summers can spend only 8 weeks at the firm without negative consequences, someone like me can spend the full 10 weeks with just two days off, without negative consequences? Or are these completely different situations?

To be fair, I'd be taking two days off to complete a law school course, and the firm does have an interest is seeing to it that I graduate on time--so I see this is as different than asking for two days off to go to a wedding or to go skiing in Vermont.

But again, I do appreciate your perspective. And if the consensus is that it's not worth it, I'll drop the class and never even approach the subject with my firm. But with split-summers spending only 8 weeks at a firm, I wonder if just two days out of the full 10 week summer is that substantial.

Thoughts?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by bob311 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:31 pm

anonymous2898 wrote:Thanks for your advice. Just to play Devil's Advocate: I believe SAs who split-summers at two firms only spend like 8 weeks at each firm. I'd be spending the full 10 weeks at my firm, minus two Fridays. Is it unreasonable to assume that if split summers can spend only 8 weeks at the firm without negative consequences, someone like me can spend the full 10 weeks with just two days off, without negative consequences? Or are these completely different situations?

To be fair, I'd be taking two days off to complete a law school course, and the firm does have an interest is seeing to it that I graduate on time--so I see this is as different than asking for two days off to go to a wedding or to go skiing in Vermont.

But again, I do appreciate your perspective. And if the consensus is that it's not worth it, I'll drop the class and never even approach the subject with my firm. But with split-summers spending only 8 weeks at a firm, I wonder if just two days out of the full 10 week summer is that substantial.

Thoughts?
Comparing taking two Fridays off and split summers is like comparing apples and oranges. The better question is what was your firm's offer rate? If you are in a class of like 40+ and everyone always gets an offer, then I think you might be able to swing it, but it won't look good.

However, if anyone has gotten no-offered (or cold-offered), I would not risk it in the slightest. You just dont want to look like the lazy summer, even if it is for school.

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UVA2B

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by UVA2B » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:31 pm

Does your firm 100% offer historically? If yes, you can risk asking about having these two weekends off without automatically losing an offer, but it is still a risk that could be combined with other problems should they occur (not saying you'll have any other problems, but just saying that if you had other problems such as personality conflicts, really bad work product, or drunkenly jumping off of a partner's yacht naked), it wouldn't help your cause at all.

Whether you're splitting your summer or not, your primary goal during the summer is to secure employment. You have 10 weeks to do that. Deciding to risk that for something that is ultimately elective is a risk that could come across badly if it means missing out on a big professional or personal event. Maybe it's the weekend they were planning for a happy hour somewhere cool with the partners, or maybe it's the weekend they'll take for a Yankees game followed by something else. Or maybe a big assignment will come up before the weekend you want to take an extra day off to take an elective course. No one here can reliably predict what you're bagging out on, but you're very possibly bagging out on an opportunity to show your commitment to joining the firm, which could be used an ammunition for not giving you an offer (depending on the firm, this could just mean a cold offer).

There are good reasons to ask for a day off that won't bat an eye, especially if you're at a 100% offer firm, but I'm skeptical this qualifies under that category. You can get those extra credits during the semester, and it's unlikely you absolutely need those credits, so why take the risk? I wouldn't, but I'm also not convinced it would kill your chances at an offer either, even if the firm wasn't 100% offer.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by BrainsyK » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:46 pm

As a summer, you're paid $730/day. Two days would make it $1,500. Why would you forfeit that to pay your school extra money to get a few credits that you would get anyway during the course of a regular semester, where the cost would be incorporated into your tuition?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Wild Card » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:59 pm

It is. [sexist content redacted]
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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:15 pm

I'm really confused about your current credit load and the requirements you need to hit. Are you really not going to graduate next year if you don't take a 3-credit course over the summer?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by anonymous2898 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:04 pm

Thanks, all. The consensus seems to be don't risk it, so I'll drop the summer class. And to answer a question above, it's not that if I don't take this class I won't graduate on time; rather, it just means that subsequent semesters will have to carry a very intense credit load for 3L.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by QContinuum » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:29 pm

anonymous2898 wrote:it just means that subsequent semesters will have to carry a very intense credit load for 3L.
I'm a bit confused by the above. We're talking a total of 3 credits, right? That's not a lot of credits to add to an entire year (two semesters) of law school. You could take a 1-credit seminar one semester and a 2-credit seminar the other. You could take an easy 3-credit lecture (those do exist). You could even take a non-law class (assuming you haven't hit the cap already). Or you could even just pick your remaining classes to be more "credit efficient." In the past, I've taken four classes for 12 credits, or four classes for 15 credits - the 15-credit semester didn't feel noticeably more difficult, because it was still just four classes, just like the 12-credit semester.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:01 pm

In a similar (yet clearly way more egregious) vein is it a terrible idea to take off the Friday of Memorial Day Weekend as a summer? I'm in DC and the vast majority of working professionals I know take that Friday off to go to the DE/MD beaches/lakes. Seems like most summer programs are starting on the 20th so it would be the first week. Definitely, not an option right?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In a similar (yet clearly way more egregious) vein is it a terrible idea to take off the Friday of Memorial Day Weekend as a summer? I'm in DC and the vast majority of working professionals I know take that Friday off to go to the DE/MD beaches/lakes. Seems like most summer programs are starting on the 20th so it would be the first week. Definitely, not an option right?
Right. Depending on the firm, they'll likely have activities planned/available for you that weekend, too.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Tenzen » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:04 pm

Not worth it. I'd also be wary of thinking 100% offer really means 100% offer.

Work at a firm that always posts 100% offers. For the year I summered, they posted 100%, but that was a lie. There were cold offers, including for two summers who did something particularly stupid, and people knew other SAs who weren't coming back. They got to say that got offers to help their employment prospects/esteem/reputation, and in exchange the firm got to maintain a image it really offers 100%.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by RaceJudicata » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In a similar (yet clearly way more egregious) vein is it a terrible idea to take off the Friday of Memorial Day Weekend as a summer? I'm in DC and the vast majority of working professionals I know take that Friday off to go to the DE/MD beaches/lakes. Seems like most summer programs are starting on the 20th so it would be the first week. Definitely, not an option right?
Correct. Not an option. 10 week interview. You don’t take a day off from the interview unless it’s absolutely unavoidable, e.g., death in the family, wedding of family member or wedding where you are best man/maid of honor, etc. And for the latter, take as little time off as possible.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Arad » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:03 pm

Unless you’re at a firm with a working summer, I doubt anyone will care or even notice; associates and partners have way more important things to worry about than where an SA was that one Friday and its ok to miss a summer event (many people with families skip most of them). Ask HR their thoughts to confirm and make sure to give your team a heads up that you’ll be out of town those weekends but can work remotely.

That said, I don’t know why you would want to take a class over the summer - at most places it’s a vacation and if you haven’t lived in NY it’s an awesome city to explore when you’re free. Just figure something else out. For example, you could see if your school will let you take classes at a NY school or online instead, take 3 extra credits your 3L year, etc.
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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by QContinuum » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:06 am

Arad wrote:Unless you’re at a firm with a working summer, I doubt anyone will care or even notice; associates and partners have way more important things to worry about than where an SA was that one Friday and its ok to miss a summer event (many people with families skip most of them). Ask HR their thoughts to confirm and make sure to give your team a heads up that you’ll be out of town those weekends but can work remotely.
Are there really any firms left in this day and age that don't have working summers? I realize make-work was a thing pre-2008 but I don't think it's been common since firms slimmed down. I have friends who summered at firms up and down the V100 and all of them did actual client work pretty much from the beginning to the end.

Missing a few events is (probably) okay (depending on the firm and group; even within a firm, some groups care much more about attending social events than others). But taking two Fridays off is a different kettle of fish than missing a few after-hours events. As others have said, it probably wouldn't sink OP, standing alone, assuming a 100% offer firm (also important to check, as not all firms are 100% offer). But why run the risk? The payoff - a slightly easier 3L year - is minimal, while the potential downside - a cold offer, or even worse, a no offer - is yuge.

I also want to push back on the idea that "many people with families skip most [summer events]." I don't think that's true at all. IME, SAs with families often go the extra mile to demonstrate their availability/dedication to the firm.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Surprised to see so many people suggesting this is a big deal. If it's even a modestly sized NYC office, literally nobody will notice or care. During my summer at a V10 in NYC, any summer associate could've skipped multiple Fridays and nobody would've known. And now, as a 4th year associate, I likewise think it shouldn't be a concern for you as a summer associate. I rarely NEED a summer associate and, if they aren't in the office when I happen to look for one, I don't really think twice about it. Your contributions to ongoing workstreams are marginal, at best, and half the time I assume SAs are out of the office for firm-sponsored social outings.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by UsernameNotTaken » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:18 pm

Tenzen wrote:Not worth it. I'd also be wary of thinking 100% offer really means 100% offer.

Work at a firm that always posts 100% offers. For the year I summered, they posted 100%, but that was a lie. There were cold offers, including for two summers who did something particularly stupid, and people knew other SAs who weren't coming back. They got to say that got offers to help their employment prospects/esteem/reputation, and in exchange the firm got to maintain a image it really offers 100%.
Any chance you can name this firm?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:52 pm

It would be fine at my firm. In fact, we had several summers take off a Friday for a wedding or other obligations last summer. The only reason I even knew was that they weren’t around for Friday happy hours, and no one could have cared less. In terms I of actual work, while assignments I give summers are typically things that do need to get done on real client matters, I pretty much give the assignment expecting to redo large portions and double-check the research. I wouldn’t give something time-sensitive that needed to be done right the first time to a summer, and honestly it’s usually faster to just do it myself or have an experienced junior do it. I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d “need” a summer day n any given day unless I really wanted a free lunch.

All that said, given all the responses from people who would care, I probably wouldn’t risk it. At this point, getting an offer is a way more important than 3L classes.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by bob311 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:58 pm

UsernameNotTaken wrote:
Tenzen wrote:Not worth it. I'd also be wary of thinking 100% offer really means 100% offer.

Work at a firm that always posts 100% offers. For the year I summered, they posted 100%, but that was a lie. There were cold offers, including for two summers who did something particularly stupid, and people knew other SAs who weren't coming back. They got to say that got offers to help their employment prospects/esteem/reputation, and in exchange the firm got to maintain a image it really offers 100%.
Any chance you can name this firm?
I mean a lot of firms have been doing this lately. The market for summers has struck pretty significantly the past few years. There was an ABA article I think that shows summer classes are down 20-25% in gross numbers of summers in the past 2 years alone. Firms are also using tools such as cold offers more often to cut the fat in a class. They might take a summer of class of 40 but realistically only need 35 so a few get cold offered.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by UsernameNotTaken » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:12 pm

bob311 wrote:
UsernameNotTaken wrote:
Tenzen wrote:Not worth it. I'd also be wary of thinking 100% offer really means 100% offer.

Work at a firm that always posts 100% offers. For the year I summered, they posted 100%, but that was a lie. There were cold offers, including for two summers who did something particularly stupid, and people knew other SAs who weren't coming back. They got to say that got offers to help their employment prospects/esteem/reputation, and in exchange the firm got to maintain a image it really offers 100%.
Any chance you can name this firm?
I mean a lot of firms have been doing this lately. The market for summers has struck pretty significantly the past few years. There was an ABA article I think that shows summer classes are down 20-25% in gross numbers of summers in the past 2 years alone. Firms are also using tools such as cold offers more often to cut the fat in a class. They might take a summer of class of 40 but realistically only need 35 so a few get cold offered.
Yeah, I'm just trying to gather up what information I can so I can relay it to people doing OCI this coming season, and also to see if the firm I'll be summering at does this.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by LBJ's Hair » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:30 am

Related question: With the new hiring plan, lot of summers are gonna be applying for clerkships during the summer of 2L. Is it kosher to take time to interview?

I can't imagine people would particularly fussed about a summer stepping out to do a 2nd Cir interview for a an hour or w/e, but can see how flying out to San Francisco would be a different matter?

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:38 am

LBJ's Hair wrote:Related question: With the new hiring plan, lot of summers are gonna be applying for clerkships during the summer of 2L. Is it kosher to take time to interview?

I can't imagine people would particularly fussed about a summer stepping out to do a 2nd Cir interview for a an hour or w/e, but can see how flying out to San Francisco would be a different matter?
Summers at my firm were allowed to take a day off for clerkship interviews; any longer than a day would've looked bad though. If it's someplace far, try to get the interview scheduled for Friday or Monday so that the flight won't make you take more than a day off.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:15 am

Multiple summers at my (V10) firm took multiple days to travel/do clerkship interviews and it didn't bother anyone; in fact, everyone in the litigation group encouraged it. At least one of them offered to do some work remotely while traveling to Montana or something and was rebuffed.

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Re: Possible To Take A Friday or Two Off During SA Position?

Post by cfcm » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:39 am

BrainsyK wrote:As a summer, you're paid $730/day. Two days would make it $1,500. Why would you forfeit that to pay your school extra money to get a few credits that you would get anyway during the course of a regular semester, where the cost would be incorporated into your tuition?
This is irrelevant to the OP’s question and I don’t mean to sidetrack, but is this really how summer associate pay works? I definitely don’t recall it working like that.

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