Which is the better firm?

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Which is the better firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:32 pm

I know this is an insufferable thread topic, you're welcome to mock me.

What is the "better" firm, Davis Polk NYC vs. Kirkland & Ellis Chi?

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UVA2B

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:01 pm

Do you prefer Bartlet or danjou pears?

You’re trying to compare two firms and offices that can’t really be directly compared without considering practice group, geographic preference, and probably a litany of intangibles that don’t translate across markets.

K&E has obviously been vacuuming up personnel and new markets, so they’re much more aggressive in expansion. DPW is one of a handful of white shoe NYC firms that dominates major corporate accounts.

What is your reason for comparing these firms in different markets?

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby carsondalywashere » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:14 pm

In terms of market performance, maybe Kirkland.

Revenue - Kirkland is #1, DPW is #30
PPP - Kirkland is #4, DPW is #7
RPL - Kirkland is #4, DPW is #17

For which one has better attorneys, I think it depends on the practice group.

Kirkland is king in Chicago, while there are a lot of extremely good firms in New York so it's hard to say DPW is the best in New York.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:38 pm

UVA2B wrote:Do you prefer Bartlet or danjou pears?

You’re trying to compare two firms and offices that can’t really be directly compared without considering practice group, geographic preference, and probably a litany of intangibles that don’t translate across markets.


TITCR. Any attempt to compare offices across markets is meaningless. So what if WLRK's "better" than K&E Chi? K&E's still the top dog in Chicago.

Choose a market first, then compare firms within that market.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby GoldenPuppy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:36 pm

Everyone saying apples and oranges, I don't think so. Yes, knowing the practice group would yield a better, more helpful answer, but that would be too much identifiable information, obviously, but regardless, things are always better than other things. It's like saying you can't compare a given US president to a given UK prime minister. Yeah, you can.

Kirkland Ellis.

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UVA2B

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby UVA2B » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:06 pm

GoldenPuppy wrote:Everyone saying apples and oranges, I don't think so. Yes, knowing the practice group would yield a better, more helpful answer, but that would be too much identifiable information, obviously, but regardless, things are always better than other things. It's like saying you can't compare a given US president to a given UK prime minister. Yeah, you can.

Kirkland Ellis.


Ok, based on what? Total revenue and vault? Some other ultimately meaningless metric for one person picking an employer? How about partnership prospects, even though share partner at K&E is as difficult as anywhere?

We’ll need to know what arbitrary metric you’re using.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:37 pm

GoldenPuppy wrote:Everyone saying apples and oranges, I don't think so. Yes, knowing the practice group would yield a better, more helpful answer, but that would be too much identifiable information, obviously,

Too much identifiable information? How so? OP's posting anonymously, and K&E vs. DPW is one of the most common comparisons on these fora.

GoldenPuppy wrote:but regardless, things are always better than other things.

Not really, no. Some things are just different. Like, Bartlett pears really aren't better than D'Anjou, or vice versa. They're just different.

GoldenPuppy wrote:it's like saying you can't compare a given US president to a given UK prime minister. Yeah, you can.

But any such comparison would still be meaningless in the end. What possible utility would there be to force a comparison between, say, Roosevelt and Churchill? Or Hoover and Chamberlain? The U.S. and UK are very different countries, with different forms of government. A successful UK Prime Minister might very well be a rotten U.S. President, and vice versa. For that matter, a successful UK Prime Minister might not even have the skills to win a U.S.-style Presidential race, and vice versa.

Likewise, comparing K&E Chicago and DPW NY is meaningless. Even if we were to force a comparison, so what? OP should decide whether s/he wants to practice in Chicago or NY.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:28 pm

If your goal is to try to flex to your classmates, they're the same in terms of prestige and selectivity.

The paramount consideration should be which city you want to be in because that's going to be the biggest difference.

Otherwise, we need to talk about practice groups. For example, K&E is the clear pick for IP lit over DPW. DPW is better for most corp groups.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:11 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:If your goal is to try to flex to your classmates, they're the same in terms of prestige and selectivity.

The paramount consideration should be which city you want to be in because that's going to be the biggest difference.

Otherwise, we need to talk about practice groups. For example, K&E is the clear pick for IP lit over DPW. DPW is better for most corp groups.


Posting anon for privacy reasons. At my CCN they're not totally comparable in terms of selectivity. K&E gives plenty of offers to median students (outside of DC obviously). You need to be top third for DPW.

That doesn't mean DPW is "better"; in fact, in terms of the long-term future of the firms I'd say K&E is better-positioned. But that's more relevant to senior associates and of counsel/partners. If you're picking your *first* associate gig (and will likely be gone in 5 years), in NY particularly I think DPW has a bit more brand value. (Again, that doesn't mean it's "better" - for particular practice areas you might be better off, even as a first year associate, at K&E NY.)

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:59 am

Oh good, the AmLaw 100 numbers and law school grade selectivist debaters have logged on.

If I had to pick between the two, I would def side with the law school grade selectivists, because at least it means you'd be rarer with DPW on your resume rather than the Walmart of prestigious sweatshops.

That being said, both are pretty bad ways to choose a firm. Maybe you should provide additional details on your career goals.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby texas1100 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:04 am

Easily DPW NYC.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby TheProsecutor » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:12 am

Kirkland is the more dominant firm. In fact, let's be real about Kirkland & Ellis: It is the most dominant firm, period, in the United States. The only place where it doesn't match some of its peers is selectivity, yet it still manages to hire a large contingent from HYS each year, it still snags Supreme Court clerks, and it still manages to attract clerks from prestigious district and appellate clerkships. They are a dominant player in every industry and in every market. Beyond legal expertise, the Kirkland network is monstrous. Their lawyers are often tapped to be high level appointees in important government positions, including DOJ and SEC. Their lawyers have often risen to be general counsels at the most significant fortune 500 companies. Kirkland, in short, is a powerhouse. Having Kirkland on your resume as a lawyer gives you access and the benefit of an elite but large network of extremely influential lawyers.

That being said, DPW is a great white shoe firm and I wouldn't necessarily pick Kirkland over DPW simply because it is a more dominant firm. I would also pick it because Kirkland provides much better associate training, realistic partner track (at least for non-share), ability to work on a wider range of issues and cases as a generalist, and a pretty straightforward rating system and transparent feedback.

The case for DPW becomes closer in my view because this hypo is also about Chicago v. New York. New York is by FAR the superior city, so while I would pick Kirkland over DPW as a firm, I would probably pick DPW NY over Kirkland Chicago just because I have no desire to be in Chicago.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:48 pm

TheProsecutor wrote:Kirkland is the more dominant firm. In fact, let's be real about Kirkland & Ellis: It is the most dominant firm, period, in the United States. The only place where it doesn't match some of its peers is selectivity, yet it still manages to hire a large contingent from HYS each year, it still snags Supreme Court clerks, and it still manages to attract clerks from prestigious district and appellate clerkships. They are a dominant player in every industry and in every market. Beyond legal expertise, the Kirkland network is monstrous. Their lawyers are often tapped to be high level appointees in important government positions, including DOJ and SEC. Their lawyers have often risen to be general counsels at the most significant fortune 500 companies. Kirkland, in short, is a powerhouse. Having Kirkland on your resume as a lawyer gives you access and the benefit of an elite but large network of extremely influential lawyers.

That being said, DPW is a great white shoe firm and I wouldn't necessarily pick Kirkland over DPW simply because it is a more dominant firm. I would also pick it because Kirkland provides much better associate training, realistic partner track (at least for non-share), ability to work on a wider range of issues and cases as a generalist, and a pretty straightforward rating system and transparent feedback.

The case for DPW becomes closer in my view because this hypo is also about Chicago v. New York. New York is by FAR the superior city, so while I would pick Kirkland over DPW as a firm, I would probably pick DPW NY over Kirkland Chicago just because I have no desire to be in Chicago.


What is the over/under on this thread turning into a Chicago vs. New York argument lmao

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:20 pm

Leaving aside litigation/gov, which I do not know about, there is absolutely no support for the efficacy of the K&E network ever given. There are armies of K&E lawyers out there. So I am sure there are a lot in in-house legal departments. That being said, it has certainly not been my experience that there are even a proportionate number of them in in-house departments or at the GC level of the companies I work with and would want to work for.

If you're in Chicago, you probably would think otherwise. On the West Coast and with tech/growth companies, which is the space I work in, K&E doesn't carry all that much weight. That's why details like what you want to do always matter.

Same goes for DPW but I just feel the need to respond to the egregious and weird K&E trolling that appears on here pretty regularly.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:43 am

Comparing two firms on which is better based on which firm hires less median t13 students is hilariously stupid
Last edited by QContinuum on Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Outed for anon abuse.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:52 pm

Worked at both. PM me

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby carsondalywashere » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:53 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:Comparing two firms on which is better based on which firm hires less median t13 students is hilariously stupid

My bad, did not realize I posted anon

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby plurilingue » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:45 pm

It is telling that the OP is asking this question. If you have to ask...

But since OP really doesn’t know, DPW is 1,000x the firm that Kirkland is. It hires from a completely different level of elitism and prestige than Kirkland. Kirkland is a good firm with good associates — a bit like Latham or Weil. But it’s huge, unselective and categorically unpresitigous to people with ultra-elite resumes. Nobody who has options goes there (unless K&E is throwing SCOTUS money at you). In other words, substantially everyone at DPW could have gotten an offer at K&E; substantially nobody at Kirkland had an offer at DPW. M

DPW has the highest social class of associates out of any Manhattan law firm. It’s not any more academically selective than CSM, Cleary, S&C, STB, but it likes a certain type of person: white, WASPy, sexually attractive, and flat-out rich. I went to an elite Manhattan school and a disproportionately large portion of the people from my school who work at DPW comes from a family with mid-eight figure wealth. Everyone I know a Kirkland is a working class striver. It’s like a Michelin three star vs Cheesecake Factory. Most people can’t tell the difference.

Also note median associate at DPW went to Columbia with H/C/N being around 2/3 of associates. Kirkland hires from any old school, with the median associate having gone to Cornell or Northwestern. For undergrads, I would wager the gap would be even larger.

Enjoy!

Moderator note: User outed and warned. Anon is not to be used for defamatory content (in this case, baselessly suggesting DPW discriminates on the basis of race and religion in hiring). -QContinuum
Last edited by QContinuum on Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby UVA2B » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:20 am

Yup, that deserves to be outed.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby 10b5-1 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:It is telling that the OP is asking this question. If you have to ask...

....

Enjoy!


Honestly, although this reads like top-notch satire, I think the author is sincere. I've been crying out for an American Psycho remake for years, this post just satisfied me.

But seriously, can you imagine pitching the most famously stingy firm in NY as the Michelin starred meal? I didn't know Michelin starred restaurants had started making sure you're at your table at 9am on the dot, and reporting you to the maitre d' if you're a little late. This kind of ego would at least make sense coming from Cravath but come on, DPW recruiters. Fading glory envious of bright shiny new thing - it isn't a good look.
Last edited by QContinuum on Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Outed for anon abuse.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby BulletTooth » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:It’s like a Michelin three star vs Cheesecake Factory. Most people can’t tell the difference.


Not the greatest analogy...

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby Wild Card » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:It is telling that the OP is asking this question. If you have to ask...

But since OP really doesn’t know, DPW is 1,000x the firm that Kirkland is. It hires from a completely different level of elitism and prestige than Kirkland. Kirkland is a good firm with good associates — a bit like Latham or Weil. But it’s huge, unselective and categorically unpresitigous to people with ultra-elite resumes. Nobody who has options goes there (unless K&E is throwing SCOTUS money at you). In other words, substantially everyone at DPW could have gotten an offer at K&E; substantially nobody at Kirkland had an offer at DPW. M

DPW has the highest social class of associates out of any Manhattan law firm. It’s not any more academically selective than CSM, Cleary, S&C, STB, but it likes a certain type of person: white, WASPy, sexually attractive, and flat-out rich. I went to an elite Manhattan school and a disproportionately large portion of the people from my school who work at DPW comes from a family with mid-eight figure wealth. Everyone I know a Kirkland is a working class striver. It’s like a Michelin three star vs Cheesecake Factory. Most people can’t tell the difference.

Also note median associate at DPW went to Columbia with H/C/N being around 2/3 of associates. Kirkland hires from any old school, with the median associate having gone to Cornell or Northwestern. For undergrads, I would wager the gap would be even larger.

Enjoy!


This reeks of copypasta. Also, NYU is a shitty school, and 12/19 of the people in my class who ended at DPW are Jewish, not WASP. Of the remaining 7 are 4 Asians, 1 Middle Easterner, and 2 WASPs.

Kirkland is shit and nobody in his right mind thinks it compares with DPW. But the author of this copypasta is clearly PROLE for knowing what a "Cheesecake Factory" is.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby TheProsecutor » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:56 am

I also forgot to mention, a KE associate is likely to be better compensated that a DPW associate (but don't worry, you can buy all those Brooks Brothers suits with prestige points). :roll:

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It is telling that the OP is asking this question. If you have to ask...

But since OP really doesn’t know, DPW is 1,000x the firm that Kirkland is. It hires from a completely different level of elitism and prestige than Kirkland. Kirkland is a good firm with good associates — a bit like Latham or Weil. But it’s huge, unselective and categorically unpresitigous to people with ultra-elite resumes. Nobody who has options goes there (unless K&E is throwing SCOTUS money at you). In other words, substantially everyone at DPW could have gotten an offer at K&E; substantially nobody at Kirkland had an offer at DPW. M

DPW has the highest social class of associates out of any Manhattan law firm. It’s not any more academically selective than CSM, Cleary, S&C, STB, but it likes a certain type of person: white, WASPy, sexually attractive, and flat-out rich. I went to an elite Manhattan school and a disproportionately large portion of the people from my school who work at DPW comes from a family with mid-eight figure wealth. Everyone I know a Kirkland is a working class striver. It’s like a Michelin three star vs Cheesecake Factory. Most people can’t tell the difference.

Also note median associate at DPW went to Columbia with H/C/N being around 2/3 of associates. Kirkland hires from any old school, with the median associate having gone to Cornell or Northwestern. For undergrads, I would wager the gap would be even larger.

Enjoy!


You miss the point that Kirkland outperforms Davis Cuckold Polk in every category.

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Re: Which is the better firm?

Postby thatlawlkid » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:31 pm

Yeah i really dont understand everyone advocating for DP being the better firm because of who they recruit while Kirkland out performs them.

It's like saying the Browns are better than the Patriots because they have tons of 1st round draft picks while Tom Brady is out there throwing dimes to walmart greeters and winning rings.



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