Is it possible for a transactional lawyer in biglaw to work from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m.? Forum

[booknerd]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

[oblig.lawl.ref]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

Simple answer is no. It's probably not worth debating the nuance. What you're describing really isn't possible. If it were, biglaw transactional work would be one of the best jobs in the world IMO.

[Anonymous User]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

I’m interested in eating dinner and at this point I’m mostly interested in going to a Michelin 3-star restaurant, serving either French, Barbecue, or Thai cuisine. I see myself spending no more than $20, maybe starting with a $5 appetizer and finishing with a $10 main dish. Is it possible to do this so that I can save money for a movie with my date? Or will I have to pay $30 for her entree or something?

[L'orDuCommun]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

Yes, it is possible, but not in M&A or any other deal-related practice, not at a very large firm, and probably not in New York.

[lawhopeful100]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

Is there transactional employment law? I don’t do corporate, but from everything I’ve heard this schedule isn’t possible. If you’re in litigation at a firm that isn’t big on facetime you could make these office hours work (for example, I usually come in at 8 and leave at 5:30), but you will still often times have to log on from home at night.

[malibustacy]

I don't understand why everyone is giving such flat out absolute statements.

Your hours really depend on your firm, specialty group, and market. The thing people most struggle with, is that because of the unpredictable nature of the work flow, sometimes you'll be working all-nighters to meet a tight deadline for days, but other times you'll have nothing to do. You're expected to be available at all times, and answer e-mails/calls even on weekends. Firms with weak facetime requirements let lawyers to go home, and at least work from outside the office when it's required. Some supervising partners will give better deadlines than others, while other can be absolute jerks.

There's going to be a huge difference between working M&A in NYC, and Tax in St. Louis. Smaller practice groups aren't necessarily better. Like for example, the Executive Compensation group can be ridiculously busy if they have to work on pieces of every transactional deal. Some people are better at managing their time than others, or managing their work flow.

It really depends.

[Neff]

2000 billable hours means 40 billable hours a week for 50 weeks (assuming no vacation besides the 10 federal holidays). 40 billable hours means ~50 hours actually worked per week. So, yes, 10 hours actually worked per day is theoretically possible. In reality, however, in the corporate practice the hours are never consistent like that. Lots of 2-4 billable hour days (where you still have to sit around at the office) and 12-14 hour days (6 AM to 3 AM the next day type of days). It is virtually impossible to rigidly stick to a 9 to 7. You're expected to be connected at all times. At some places you might get a pass for not responding to a 9:30 PM email until the next morning, whereas at other places that's unacceptable (when you're working with a partner who respond to 4 AM emails within 15 minutes, good luck with that).

[QContinuum]

I'm interested in going to law school and at this point I'm mostly interested in practicing transactional law in a large law firm, doing either mergers and acquisitions, employment law, or tax. I see myself working about 10 hours a day, maybe getting to the office at 9 a.m. and leaving by 7 p.m. or 8 to 6. Is it possible to do this so that I have time to myself in the evenings or time to spend time with any family I have? Or will I have to be working from 9 in the morning until midnight or something?

You can definitely find a firm/group where you'll be able to head in at 9 and roll out by 7 to have dinner with your family, but you'll still have to log back in at home. You won't be able to clock out at 7 and then not check email/do work again until 9 the next day. I didn't even do that as a summer.

[Daboose]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

[QContinuum]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

[ronaldo09]

For tax, it is possible

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

As someone in a middle-market PE practice, this is hilarious. I'm expected to pull all nighters on a fairly regular basis, and to be ready to dig into documents any time a partner wants, whether it's a Monday at 3PM, Friday at 11PM, or Sunday at noon with no warning. Oh, and clients basically expect that you respond within 5-10 minutes, even if it's on the weekend.

If you want a lifestyle, PE is the worst possible practice to recommend.

EDIT: I'll also add: I've drawn in almost all of our specialist practice groups for at least one fire drill at a time that was not between 9 and 7 during the week (and, to the poster above, I see tax lawyers drawn in at odd hours on a weekly basis...), and regularly get emails from them at very odd (read: bad) hours. The answer to this question is a pretty unequivocal no. Also, I'm normally not for enforcing rules, but isn't there a no 0Ls in this forum rule?

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

As someone in a middle-market PE practice, this is hilarious. I'm expected to pull all nighters on a fairly regular basis, and to be ready to dig into documents any time a partner wants, whether it's a Monday at 3PM, Friday at 11PM, or Sunday at noon with no warning. Oh, and clients basically expect that you respond within 5-10 minutes, even if it's on the weekend.

If you want a lifestyle, PE is the worst possible practice to recommend.

EDIT: I'll also add: I've drawn in almost all of our specialist practice groups for at least one fire drill at a time that was not between 9 and 7 during the week (and, to the poster above, I see tax lawyers drawn in at odd hours on a weekly basis...), and regularly get emails from them at very odd (read: bad) hours. The answer to this question is a pretty unequivocal no. Also, I'm normally not for enforcing rules, but isn't there a no 0Ls in this forum rule?

This has got to be pretty firm dependent. I think firms like K&E have a lot of clients that are technically "mid-market" PE firms. Your Mid Market PE work at Kirkland is going to be much different than Mid-Market work at a firm like Bryan Cave.

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

As someone in a middle-market PE practice, this is hilarious. I'm expected to pull all nighters on a fairly regular basis, and to be ready to dig into documents any time a partner wants, whether it's a Monday at 3PM, Friday at 11PM, or Sunday at noon with no warning. Oh, and clients basically expect that you respond within 5-10 minutes, even if it's on the weekend.

If you want a lifestyle, PE is the worst possible practice to recommend.

EDIT: I'll also add: I've drawn in almost all of our specialist practice groups for at least one fire drill at a time that was not between 9 and 7 during the week (and, to the poster above, I see tax lawyers drawn in at odd hours on a weekly basis...), and regularly get emails from them at very odd (read: bad) hours. The answer to this question is a pretty unequivocal no. Also, I'm normally not for enforcing rules, but isn't there a no 0Ls in this forum rule?

This has got to be pretty firm dependent. I think firms like K&E have a lot of clients that are technically "mid-market" PE firms. Your Mid Market PE work at Kirkland is going to be much different than Mid-Market work at a firm like Bryan Cave.

Fair, although I will note that I am not at any of the traditionally mentioned PE sweatshop firms.

[JohnnieSockran]

I don't understand why everyone is giving such flat out absolute statements.

Your hours really depend on your firm, specialty group, and market. The thing people most struggle with, is that because of the unpredictable nature of the work flow, sometimes you'll be working all-nighters to meet a tight deadline for days, but other times you'll have nothing to do. You're expected to be available at all times, and answer e-mails/calls even on weekends. Firms with weak facetime requirements let lawyers to go home, and at least work from outside the office when it's required. Some supervising partners will give better deadlines than others, while other can be absolute jerks.

There's going to be a huge difference between working M&A in NYC, and Tax in St. Louis. Smaller practice groups aren't necessarily better. Like for example, the Executive Compensation group can be ridiculously busy if they have to work on pieces of every transactional deal. Some people are better at managing their time than others, or managing their work flow.

It really depends.

Yeah maybe, but this kid said "transactional" (read: deal work). Which as you pointed out, will require some all nighters. Even the deal lawyers in Topeka, KS have shitty hours at times, they probably just get paid less and do much smaller deals. Regardless, there's no need to lump Tax into the conversation--it's not really transactional it's more of a specialist practice, and sure, they sometimes are helping out on deals.

So no, it really doesn't depend, and that schedule really is impossible. I'm in a non-NY market, and that's my typical schedule during slow times (which is less than a couple months per year total).

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

As someone in a middle-market PE practice, this is hilarious. I'm expected to pull all nighters on a fairly regular basis, and to be ready to dig into documents any time a partner wants, whether it's a Monday at 3PM, Friday at 11PM, or Sunday at noon with no warning. Oh, and clients basically expect that you respond within 5-10 minutes, even if it's on the weekend.

If you want a lifestyle, PE is the worst possible practice to recommend.

EDIT: I'll also add: I've drawn in almost all of our specialist practice groups for at least one fire drill at a time that was not between 9 and 7 during the week (and, to the poster above, I see tax lawyers drawn in at odd hours on a weekly basis...), and regularly get emails from them at very odd (read: bad) hours. The answer to this question is a pretty unequivocal no. Also, I'm normally not for enforcing rules, but isn't there a no 0Ls in this forum rule?

This has got to be pretty firm dependent. I think firms like K&E have a lot of clients that are technically "mid-market" PE firms. Your Mid Market PE work at Kirkland is going to be much different than Mid-Market work at a firm like Bryan Cave.

Fair, although I will note that I am not at any of the traditionally mentioned PE sweatshop firms.

I'm also in a middle-market PEMA practice in NY that's not one of the big traditional firms. Absolutely corroborate what anon poster said above. The worst thing is that even when you're in between deals, or in between signings and closings and things are slow, you are anxious all the time about making plans. At any moment the client could ask a question or give you the go-ahead to start working on x, y or z, and it has to be done NOW. You're constantly thinking about whether the plans are worth upsetting the senior associate/partner over if something does come up and you have to say "oh sorry Mr. Partner, I bought tickets to a concert because things were slow and I am now at said concert trying to enjoy some semblance of a life and didn't bring my laptop to the concert. Also sorry I didn't respond within 15 minutes of the client's email considering, you know, I am at a concert. I guess I'll put down my beer and go home."

It's no way to go through life.

[shock259]

Possible for some stretches? Sure. I've had a slower couple of months and it's been awesome. I've been leaving @ 6PM each day, essentially, with some logging in from home.

Just hit my hours, which is a sign of how horrible the first part of the billable year was. For many months, it was 10PM or worse. With lots of weekend work.

The biggest thing to appreciate about being in a transactional practice is that you have little to no control over your schedule. And things will come across your desk at inopportune times. If you want to try and be home for dinner each night @ 7:30PM, you can probably do it once or twice a week most weeks. Sometimes you'll go 2 months without being able to do it. Sometimes you'll get to do it for 3 weeks straight. Sometimes you will be about to shut down your computer and ready to go home and something big will come in. You're forever at the mercy of clients/partners.

[Anonymous User]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

I can't speak to middle-market PE in particular, but a note of caution about placing too much faith in a 4/5 PM wire deadline: I've done work in matters that had such a deadline and it absolutely involved late nights etc. as well in the days prior to signing.

As someone in a middle-market PE practice, this is hilarious. I'm expected to pull all nighters on a fairly regular basis, and to be ready to dig into documents any time a partner wants, whether it's a Monday at 3PM, Friday at 11PM, or Sunday at noon with no warning. Oh, and clients basically expect that you respond within 5-10 minutes, even if it's on the weekend.

If you want a lifestyle, PE is the worst possible practice to recommend.

EDIT: I'll also add: I've drawn in almost all of our specialist practice groups for at least one fire drill at a time that was not between 9 and 7 during the week (and, to the poster above, I see tax lawyers drawn in at odd hours on a weekly basis...), and regularly get emails from them at very odd (read: bad) hours. The answer to this question is a pretty unequivocal no. Also, I'm normally not for enforcing rules, but isn't there a no 0Ls in this forum rule?

This has got to be pretty firm dependent. I think firms like K&E have a lot of clients that are technically "mid-market" PE firms. Your Mid Market PE work at Kirkland is going to be much different than Mid-Market work at a firm like Bryan Cave.

Fair, although I will note that I am not at any of the traditionally mentioned PE sweatshop firms.

I'm also in a middle-market PEMA practice in NY that's not one of the big traditional firms. Absolutely corroborate what anon poster said above. The worst thing is that even when you're in between deals, or in between signings and closings and things are slow, you are anxious all the time about making plans. At any moment the client could ask a question or give you the go-ahead to start working on x, y or z, and it has to be done NOW. You're constantly thinking about whether the plans are worth upsetting the senior associate/partner over if something does come up and you have to say "oh sorry Mr. Partner, I bought tickets to a concert because things were slow and I am now at said concert trying to enjoy some semblance of a life and didn't bring my laptop to the concert. Also sorry I didn't respond within 15 minutes of the client's email considering, you know, I am at a concert. I guess I'll put down my beer and go home."

It's no way to go through life.

Yeah, this is the worst aspect of this job. We pull many all-nighters but that is okay when you know when they happen. The unpredictability is what really sucks. You can't make any plans with confidence unless you make those plans in one of your vacation weeks. People compare biglaw to finance or medicine. But biglaw is the worst when it comes to this unpredictability. A doctor would have to drop his beer and go back to his hospital to save someone's life. A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

[Anonymous User]

Tagging onto OP's question. My plan was to do transactional tax at V&E Houston. I figured that if a 9-5/6/7PM market-paying job exists, it would be in a TX specialist group. To be clear, I did NOT forfeit that chill lifestyle by choosing to go elsewhere, right?

A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

I'm pretty sure the banker isn't going to have a job either if they don't drop their beer to do something urgent. Actually, I'm pretty sure the banker would never leave in the first place. That's why they're paid more.

[Daboose]

I am the poster that initially raised the point about middle market PE and I stand by what I said.

That said, I recognize that NY transactions (even in the "middle market") are a different animal and that city in general just moves at a different pace.

I work in a secondary market at a V10 firm and probably split my time 60/40 between local and NY work. The difference in client demands is night and day. We charge the same rates but the deal pacing is what makes the real difference. If I am working on elusively local work with a partner that manages the client relationship and process well, rarely a need for a late night. Sure, clients and partners always want to keep up the "deal momentum" or whatever but inevitably there is someone else that slows up the process - back and forth w/ management on their employment agreements, a random landlord consent, or Seller's counsel just sits on the docs. Maybe I am just in a good group, but our partners are not afraid to push back on unreasonable client deadlines and usually don't put themselves in that position because they manage expectations well.

Frankly, at our firm, it is no secret that the public deals (even local ones) are more brutal in terms of hours/all-nighters given the sensitively with leaks. Obviously, a top of the market PE deal out of our NY office will move at a similar pace but we don't have anything like that in our local market - we are a solid middle market town.

[Anonymous User]

Tagging onto OP's question. My plan was to do transactional tax at V&E Houston. I figured that if a 9-5/6/7PM market-paying job exists, it would be in a TX specialist group. To be clear, I did NOT forfeit that chill lifestyle by choosing to go elsewhere, right?

A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

I'm pretty sure the banker isn't going to have a job either if they don't drop their beer to do something urgent. Actually, I'm pretty sure the banker would never leave in the first place. That's why they're paid more.

The banker actually makes more $ the more he works. The big law associate that drops the beer to do the urgent work and his litigation colleague that's lucky enough to keep drinking make the same amount of $. Who's happier?

[JohnnieSockran]

Tagging onto OP's question. My plan was to do transactional tax at V&E Houston. I figured that if a 9-5/6/7PM market-paying job exists, it would be in a TX specialist group. To be clear, I did NOT forfeit that chill lifestyle by choosing to go elsewhere, right?

A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

I'm pretty sure the banker isn't going to have a job either if they don't drop their beer to do something urgent. Actually, I'm pretty sure the banker would never leave in the first place. That's why they're paid more.

The banker actually makes more $ the more he works. The big law associate that drops the beer to do the urgent work and his litigation colleague that's lucky enough to keep drinking make the same amount of $. Who's happier?

In theory, yes. But the banker may also drop his beer to go work, but that deal may inevitably die anyway through no fault of his own (so he'll get paid $0). That's why their bonuses are so big, they get paid for closing the deals. Lawyers are paid by the hour, so when the biglaw associate drops his beer to "save his career" he's billing those hours whether the deal eventually closes or not, which helps his bonus and status in the firm.

[RedGiant]

I think it would be more possible to pull this off in a middle market private equity practice. Simultaneous sign/close deals have to sign on a weekdays before the wire deadline and there really are not that many fire drills as these deals are fairly straightforward and more of a volume practice. It would also require a good partner who can manage a smooth process and lets you work ahead (so you probably need clients who are also fine with that/willing to pay for dead deals/doesn't purposely jam its lawyers to keep fees down).

IME, PE clients are some of the most demanding--they're all ex-bankers, they expect you to get the deal done, on time, under budget.

I have worked at 5 different biglaw firms in a variety of corporate roles, some as an atty, some as a paralegal. This includes venture, public company work, high yield debt, M&A, PE M&A, shareholder activist work, and Valley-style company rep work. I second the response that many practices and partners will let you log back on later. But trying to set and stick to those hours in advance when your job is to be as responsive as possible to clients will be very difficult. While being a senior associate or midlevel may mean you have somewhat more control over your schedule (partly because you have more insight into a deal and party because you have more experiece with some of your clients than a junior), you are still expected to be "moving the ball forward" at nearly all times.

And to answer a question above--yes, there is such a thing as "transactional employment law"--it's called employee benefits and comp at most firms. You are often involved in preparing employment offers, severance agreements, securities filing disclosures, etc. relating to the hiring, firing and retention of employees (often execs). If you like tax, employment and corporate it's a great mix and you should look into it.

[SplitMyPants]

Tagging onto OP's question. My plan was to do transactional tax at V&E Houston. I figured that if a 9-5/6/7PM market-paying job exists, it would be in a TX specialist group. To be clear, I did NOT forfeit that chill lifestyle by choosing to go elsewhere, right?

A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

I'm pretty sure the banker isn't going to have a job either if they don't drop their beer to do something urgent. Actually, I'm pretty sure the banker would never leave in the first place. That's why they're paid more.

The banker actually makes more $ the more he works. The big law associate that drops the beer to do the urgent work and his litigation colleague that's lucky enough to keep drinking make the same amount of $. Who's happier?

Not the litigation colleague, because litigation fucking blows.

[JohnnieSockran]

Tagging onto OP's question. My plan was to do transactional tax at V&E Houston. I figured that if a 9-5/6/7PM market-paying job exists, it would be in a TX specialist group. To be clear, I did NOT forfeit that chill lifestyle by choosing to go elsewhere, right?

A banker would have to drop his beer and head back to office to make more money. A biglaw associate would have to drop his beer just to salvage his career.

I'm pretty sure the banker isn't going to have a job either if they don't drop their beer to do something urgent. Actually, I'm pretty sure the banker would never leave in the first place. That's why they're paid more.

The banker actually makes more $ the more he works. The big law associate that drops the beer to do the urgent work and his litigation colleague that's lucky enough to keep drinking make the same amount of $. Who's happier?

Not the litigation colleague, because litigation fucking blows.

Agreed. That guy has to come in on a Monday morning to a blank word document and turn it into something. Ew.