Boston: Ropes vs. Choate? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Two standout firms in the Boston market, but with extremely different profiles. Interested in lit, generally, with eye on government eventually. Ropes seems like your typical elite Biglaw firm, in terms of size, regional prestige, depth of bench and quality of clients, while Choate seems to punch far above its weight on a per capita basis. They both seem like great options but very, very different from each other. Anyone have any thoughts as to how to choose?

[Anonymous User]

Tough call, but I’d go with Choate. I know a few people there and they seem to love it. Plus, it doesn’t have like a 3+:1 associate:partner leverage ratio like ropes.

If your goal is to leave Boston, though, Ropes.

[Anonymous User]

Ropes

[Anonymous User]

Choate if you like the practice areas they offer.

Ropes if you think you may want to be out of biglaw within 2 years of practice.

They are both prestigious firms in Boston, with very different models. Visit both and meet as many people as you can.

Feel and fit are important.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard two people describe Choate to me as "stuffy." My own experience was that a few senior partners I met behaved in a very bro-ey way - they were bantering around before my interview in a fratty way, which made be feel kind of weird as a minority and female. No offer. This was many years ago but those partners are still there.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard two people describe Choate to me as "stuffy." My own experience was that a few senior partners I met behaved in a very bro-ey way - they were bantering around before my interview in a fratty way, which made be feel kind of weird as a minority and female. No offer. This was many years ago but those partners are still there.

for what its worth i didnt find this to be the case at all this year. im also a minority woman and i found everyone to just be genuinely really nice and friendly. i will likely be choosing choate over ropes and wilmer because of the smaller class sizes, partnership prospects and amount of responsibility earlier on than seemed to be the case at ropes.

[Anonymous User]

In case if effects your decision, you should be aware that Choate is not a 100% offer firm, but Ropes generally is. For the 2018 class, Choate no offered at least one summer. Ropes did not.

[Anonymous User]

Choate and don't look back.

It's always interesting to me when people talk about the national reach of brands. Here's how I look at it: If you're good enough to get a Choate offer, you're probably a sophisticated consumer of legal employers. Were you to leave Boston, I expect you would be similarly sophisticated in your next job. That would likely take you to employers with sophisticated knowledge of other legal employers. They would likely know, or would be curious if they did not, that Choate and Ropes were at least peers. They could also look at your resume and realize that your experience at Choate likely outstripped those at Ropes.

[Anonymous User]

Given your interest in government, I think the answer is clear: Ropes. Their government enforcement work is both internationally revered (unlike Choate’s more regional focus – i.e., not Washington DC) and a freestanding practice (unlike Choate’s, which falls under a larger complex investigations umbrella). The takeaway here, in my opinion, being that the resume recognition and government connections you’d make at Ropes would significantly outperform those at Choate.

[Anonymous User]

In case if effects your decision, you should be aware that Choate is not a 100% offer firm, but Ropes generally is. For the 2018 class, Choate no offered at least one summer. Ropes did not.

Where can we find information related to Choate offer rates? Since they don't have a page on the NALP directory

[Anonymous User]

I’m not sure. I only know about the at least one no offer through the grape vine. But the person I know that was no offered at Choate was pretty normal and I think his fellow summer associates really felt bad for him, which indicated to me that it wasn’t a deserved no offer.

In my experience with both firms and both group’s summer classes, Choate is definitely more fratty. Ropes seems to have a more nerdy, understated culture.

[Anonymous User]

Heard this second hand, but apparently Choate's start date isn't until January following graduation. Maybe this would be a positive for you but it struck me as really cheap. I only summered in boston (at a diff firm) but felt that the general perception was that Choate was a cut below the larger firms, though obviously they have some groups that they're really good in.

[Anonymous User]

Heard this second hand, but apparently Choate's start date isn't until January following graduation. Maybe this would be a positive for you but it struck me as really cheap. I only summered in boston (at a diff firm) but felt that the general perception was that Choate was a cut below the larger firms, though obviously they have some groups that they're really good in.

I don’t think Choate is necessarily a cut below the larger firms outside of maybe Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin for some practices.

I went to BC/BU and many people in the top 5-10% (aka people who got offers from all the firms) chose to go to Choate.

It’s a fantastic firm with one office that has 200 attorneys.

It honestly depends on what OP wants to do, though. Ropes has a high burnout rate compared to Choate. But Ropes will have “sexier” work.

I don’t think one is inherently better than the other as some above would like OP to think.

[Anonymous User]

Hasn't Choate had a few big defections recently? Both are strong firms, but Ropes has a better profile outside of Boston.

[Anonymous User]

Heard this second hand, but apparently Choate's start date isn't until January following graduation. Maybe this would be a positive for you but it struck me as really cheap. I only summered in boston (at a diff firm) but felt that the general perception was that Choate was a cut below the larger firms, though obviously they have some groups that they're really good in.

I don’t think Choate is necessarily a cut below the larger firms outside of maybe Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin for some practices.

I went to BC/BU and many people in the top 5-10% (aka people who got offers from all the firms) chose to go to Choate.

It’s a fantastic firm with one office that has 200 attorneys.

It honestly depends on what OP wants to do, though. Ropes has a high burnout rate compared to Choate. But Ropes will have “sexier” work.

I don’t think one is inherently better than the other as some above would like OP to think.

OP here. I'm definitely looking for good lit experience I can parlay into fedgov sooner rather than later (DC/Boston SEC, AUSA, etc.). I guess I'm weighing, in decreasing order of importance: 1) Substantial lit/trial experience early on, 2) Network strength in gov, and 3) Humane culture. If anyone can speak to any of the three for either firm, it'd be much appreciated!

[objctnyrhnr]

Heard this second hand, but apparently Choate's start date isn't until January following graduation. Maybe this would be a positive for you but it struck me as really cheap. I only summered in boston (at a diff firm) but felt that the general perception was that Choate was a cut below the larger firms, though obviously they have some groups that they're really good in.

I don’t think Choate is necessarily a cut below the larger firms outside of maybe Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin for some practices.

I went to BC/BU and many people in the top 5-10% (aka people who got offers from all the firms) chose to go to Choate.

It’s a fantastic firm with one office that has 200 attorneys.

It honestly depends on what OP wants to do, though. Ropes has a high burnout rate compared to Choate. But Ropes will have “sexier” work.

I don’t think one is inherently better than the other as some above would like OP to think.

OP here. I'm definitely looking for good lit experience I can parlay into fedgov sooner rather than later (DC/Boston SEC, AUSA, etc.). I guess I'm weighing, in decreasing order of importance: 1) Substantial lit/trial experience early on, 2) Network strength in gov, and 3) Humane culture. If anyone can speak to any of the three for either firm, it'd be much appreciated!

For these aspirations, ropes is the credited response. Choate’s white collar practice is relatively much smaller. You’ll have much more opportunity to do investigations at ropes, and the name is also more powerful resume/prestige wise (although choates is quite good). Check out d mass ausa LinkedIn bios and see the breakdown of ropes vs choate.

[Anonymous User]

Heard this second hand, but apparently Choate's start date isn't until January following graduation. Maybe this would be a positive for you but it struck me as really cheap. I only summered in boston (at a diff firm) but felt that the general perception was that Choate was a cut below the larger firms, though obviously they have some groups that they're really good in.

I don’t think Choate is necessarily a cut below the larger firms outside of maybe Ropes, Wilmer, and Goodwin for some practices.

I went to BC/BU and many people in the top 5-10% (aka people who got offers from all the firms) chose to go to Choate.

It’s a fantastic firm with one office that has 200 attorneys.

It honestly depends on what OP wants to do, though. Ropes has a high burnout rate compared to Choate. But Ropes will have “sexier” work.

I don’t think one is inherently better than the other as some above would like OP to think.

OP here. I'm definitely looking for good lit experience I can parlay into fedgov sooner rather than later (DC/Boston SEC, AUSA, etc.). I guess I'm weighing, in decreasing order of importance: 1) Substantial lit/trial experience early on, 2) Network strength in gov, and 3) Humane culture. If anyone can speak to any of the three for either firm, it'd be much appreciated!

For these aspirations, ropes is the credited response. Choate’s white collar practice is relatively much smaller. You’ll have much more opportunity to do investigations at ropes, and the name is also more powerful resume/prestige wise (although choates is quite good). Check out d mass ausa LinkedIn bios and see the breakdown of ropes vs choate.

This is good advice. Addressing your three criteria:

1. Ropes. Firm names carry a lot more weight in fedgov than in other areas. That's not to say substantive experience isn't important in trying to land your top choice, but the (unfortunate) reality is that all the experience in the world won't save you if you're up against applicants from firms with stellar fedgov reputations. IMO, the only way your portable experience at Choate would be better is if you made gov enforcement counsel/partner. That doesn't seem to be your plan, so I'd take Ropes.
2. Easily Ropes. There's really no contest; as other posters have explained, the connections you'd make at Ropes would be far greater in number and strength.
3. Ropes. Anecdotally, the associates I know there seem to have more energy. That could be for a lot of reasons (slightly more sleep, actual vacation time, pure force of will, etc.), but it's always seemed about as humane as it gets in BigLaw.

[Anonymous User]

I have good friends at both. Here is the rundown:

I'm not sure about there being a lot of recent defections at Choate. I know a Choate PE partner went to Kirkland and took an associate (maybe 2), which I heard was shocking since Choate has so few defections, especially in the partner ranks. Kirkland also took one Ropes PE partner and a few associates. I think that Ropes probably has more of a churn and burn than Choate.

The firms essentially have the same profits per partner. I get the sense that my friend at Choate gets more substantive work (and got it earlier) than my friend at Ropes.

I don't think that Ropes gives you that much more of an advantage for government work, so I say choose the one you like best. If you want to go in-house to a Ropes client (which they usually have more of because they are much larger) then choose Ropes.

Since you have offers at both, ask them directly about start dates (if you care about that) and offer rates for the most recent summers. This is information they should give you. You should feel comfortable requesting all the information you need to make your decision.

Reach out to people directly instead of through recruiting so you ensure that you are not just meeting with pre-screened people. Again, make your decision based on which firm you like better.