Debevoise vs. Cravath Forum

[Anonymous User]

Really liked everyone at the Debevoise callback. A little more of a mixed bag at the Cravath callback. Interested in corporate work.

I understand that the "NY biglaw" experience is mostly fungible with respect to hours, etc. but is there a meaningful difference when comparing one of the "nicer" firms with one that famously works hard?

On the other hand, is there a meaningful difference in exit options for in-house and/or lateraling to other firms?

[2013]

Cravath. You want to do corporate. Why would you choose Debevoise over Cravath?

[Anonymous User]

Really liked everyone at the Debevoise callback. A little more of a mixed bag at the Cravath callback. Interested in corporate work.

I understand that the "NY biglaw" experience is mostly fungible with respect to hours, etc. but is there a meaningful difference when comparing one of the "nicer" firms with one that famously works hard?

On the other hand, is there a meaningful difference in exit options for in-house and/or lateraling to other firms?

Although all elite nyc biglaw firms will work you hard, I believe there actually is an appreciable difference between Wachtell, Cravath and the rest.

[Anonymous User]

Really liked everyone at the Debevoise callback. A little more of a mixed bag at the Cravath callback. Interested in corporate work.

I understand that the "NY biglaw" experience is mostly fungible with respect to hours, etc. but is there a meaningful difference when comparing one of the "nicer" firms with one that famously works hard?

On the other hand, is there a meaningful difference in exit options for in-house and/or lateraling to other firms?

Although all elite nyc biglaw firms will work you hard, I believe there actually is an appreciable difference between Wachtell, Cravath and the rest.

Agreed

[ruski]

Really liked everyone at the Debevoise callback. A little more of a mixed bag at the Cravath callback. Interested in corporate work.

I understand that the "NY biglaw" experience is mostly fungible with respect to hours, etc. but is there a meaningful difference when comparing one of the "nicer" firms with one that famously works hard?

On the other hand, is there a meaningful difference in exit options for in-house and/or lateraling to other firms?

Although all elite nyc biglaw firms will work you hard, I believe there actually is an appreciable difference between Wachtell, Cravath and the rest.

Agreed

from speaking with several sources, I actually don't think this is true. I personally know someone who had a chill 1.5 year (or however long the rotation is) rotation at cravat working for some partner who happened to be pretty chill + a practice group that was more regulatory focused. basically worked 9-6 the entire rotation. with the way cravath works, you are assigned to one partner, so you can either win the lottery or totally lose out. but on average I don't think you are working that much longer than the guys at simpson or davis polk.

same with watchtell. I highly doubt these guys are working harder than the M&A associates at skadden. wachtell doesn't even charge by the billable hour so not sure how you can measure who bills more. I hear associates must still keep track of their time somehow, but I wouldn't be surprised if the wachtell associates overestimate more than at other firms since their hours really don't mean squat. m&a practices at skadden, etc already push associates to the max, not sure how someone at wachtell can really work THAT much harder.

at the end of day, these firms are all working on the same deals across from each other. so it's not like cravath's bill on a given matter will be 2x more than say that of skadden who happens to be across the table. and no one at debevoise will tell you, hey bud its 7pm, why don't you go home we're not cravat. you will work as long as necessary at any of the v [insert arbitrary number] to close a deal. period

to answer the question I would go to cravath as it is viewed as more competitive and give you more options. the last thing you want to do is choose deb bc you think it's nicer and end up billing 2000 year and hating your life

[Anonymous User]

I am an ex debevoise corporate associate and vote cravath. it will suck, and it will suck hard, but the training is excellent.

EDIT just for more color. corporate practice at Debevoise is HIGHLY private equity focused, and I don't think they've been great about diversifying their practice away from a few institutions. they do some public company M&A but there's no guarantee you'll be on those deals. I do think the rotation system at debevoise provides for a bit more control over your destiny (you can state preferences, whereas at cravath I think you get slotted into particular corporate practice-- so if even if you want to do M&A, you might get slotted into leveraged finance and securities). others can correct me if i'm wrong about this.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath. You should pick one firm over the other based on exit options and your career plans, not work culture unless there really are huge work culture differences which I don't believe is the case among NYC firms.

[Anonymous User]

Cravath is a notch above Deb w.r.t. corporate. But let's not pretend there aren't real tradeoffs. First, there's Cravath's rotation system. If you get assigned to a "bad" partner, there's nothing you can do except try to survive that rotation. And if you're set on joining a particular practice area, you won't be able to do that, because you never stop rotating. Second, there's hours. Cravath does work associates significantly harder than the rest of the top NY firms, for the same pay.

[Anonymous User]

You work harder, but you get more reps. And that means you’re better trained and have better exit ops.

I think if you’re not really looking for much out of your job other than to pay down debt and slide into a B+ in-house job as early as you can hook one up, maybe you can defend passing up the stronger firm. But not if you’re going to take a run at making a partner somewhere or getting one of the really competitive in-house jobs. Then you’re going to want the better brand and the more rapid experience, even if it comes with a steeper learning curve.

Note: I’m not an associate at either of these firms, so no dog in this fight.

[Anonymous User]

Previous anon above. As I said, Cravath is a notch above Deb w.r.t. corporate. But there are trade-offs, and IMO Deb's still strong enough of a brand that its alumni can still get top-notch exit opps. IMO, it's overly harsh to describe Deb's exit opps as "B+" quality.

[Anonymous User]

Previous anon above. As I said, Cravath is a notch above Deb w.r.t. corporate. But there are trade-offs, and IMO Deb's still strong enough of a brand that its alumni can still get top-notch exit opps. IMO, it's overly harsh to describe Deb's exit opps as "B+" quality.

I’d agree with this. For NY biglaw, I think Deb hits the perfect balance between elite work/prestigious rep and pleasant culture with good people. There aren’t too many other firms I’d consider to be in that sweet spot (DPW and maybe Cleary being the others), and so there aren’t too many firms I’d choose over them-- including Cravath.

[dabigchina]

What exactly is a b+ exit op? What are these ultra secret exit ops that only CRAVATH lawyers get?

[jbagelboy]

What exactly is a b+ exit op? What are these ultra secret exit ops that only CRAVATH lawyers get?

There are none. However, Cravath probably provides more of the type of elite exit options to a greater slice of its entering associate class than Debevoise (even if some Debevoise corporate associates are exiting to those same coveted positions). It’s slices of the same cake, not separate desserts.

This is one of those rare circumstances where, in a heads up call with no extraneous factors, I’d pick Cravath and never look back, and consider that the objectively better choice. Hours will be bad but it’s probably worth it. (Cravath hours have actually been worse in lit recently than M&A). Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to Debevoise if you like it more, but for generic corporate work in New York, Cravath is by some (debatably very small, but non-zero) margin better.

[Anonymous User]

Really liked everyone at the Debevoise callback. A little more of a mixed bag at the Cravath callback. Interested in corporate work.

I understand that the "NY biglaw" experience is mostly fungible with respect to hours, etc. but is there a meaningful difference when comparing one of the "nicer" firms with one that famously works hard?

On the other hand, is there a meaningful difference in exit options for in-house and/or lateraling to other firms?

Although all elite nyc biglaw firms will work you hard, I believe there actually is an appreciable difference between Wachtell, Cravath and the rest.

Agreed

from speaking with several sources, I actually don't think this is true. I personally know someone who had a chill 1.5 year (or however long the rotation is) rotation at cravat working for some partner who happened to be pretty chill + a practice group that was more regulatory focused. basically worked 9-6 the entire rotation. with the way cravath works, you are assigned to one partner, so you can either win the lottery or totally lose out. but on average I don't think you are working that much longer than the guys at simpson or davis polk.

same with watchtell. I highly doubt these guys are working harder than the M&A associates at skadden. wachtell doesn't even charge by the billable hour so not sure how you can measure who bills more. I hear associates must still keep track of their time somehow, but I wouldn't be surprised if the wachtell associates overestimate more than at other firms since their hours really don't mean squat. m&a practices at skadden, etc already push associates to the max, not sure how someone at wachtell can really work THAT much harder.

LOL if you think Wachtell associates do not work longer hours than othe NYC associates. Just LOL.

[Anonymous User]

I would probably choose Cravath here, but it's not as cut and dry as many of these posters (who I assume have never worked in big law based on their blind prestige chasing) would have you believe. Debevoise is an excellent firm that will almost certainly provide you with excellent exits. It is also almost certainly a more pleasant work environment.

[smokeylarue]

Everyone I know at both firms works a ton. There is no pleasant culture at either firm. Go with Cravath for the name/exit options.

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at both firms works a ton. There is no pleasant culture at either firm. Go with Cravath for the name/exit options.

It’s not Cravath versus a mid-tier firm here though. Debevoise is one of the most prestigious firms in New York, and its exit options will still be plentiful and impressive. And it’s not just about how much you work; it’s also who you’re working with. I think Deb is far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant and doesn’t make your 11-13 hour days feel like much longer.

The question you’ll have to weigh is if the higher chances of a more pleasant work environment (and yes, probably fewer hours as well over the course of a year) is worth the slight bump down in prestige.

[smokeylarue]

Everyone I know at both firms works a ton. There is no pleasant culture at either firm. Go with Cravath for the name/exit options.

It’s not Cravath versus a mid-tier firm here though. Debevoise is one of the most prestigious firms in New York, and its exit options will still be plentiful and impressive. And it’s not just about how much you work; it’s also who you’re working with. I think Deb is far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant and doesn’t make your 11-13 hour days feel like much longer.

The question you’ll have to weigh is if the higher chances of a more pleasant work environment (and yes, probably fewer hours as well over the course of a year) is worth the slight bump down in prestige.

"Far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant" lol at this flame from Debevoise anon. Look, Debevoise is a fine firm, I know a ton of people there. However, as others have said in this thread, Cravath is in a different league in terms of prestige and for corporate work, its not even close, Debevoise is not in the same tier. All top NYC shops work you to the bone, including Debevoise. Culture is more or less meaningless at large offices with large classes, your experience will depend on the individuals you work with.

[v5junior]

Everyone I know at both firms works a ton. There is no pleasant culture at either firm. Go with Cravath for the name/exit options.

It’s not Cravath versus a mid-tier firm here though. Debevoise is one of the most prestigious firms in New York, and its exit options will still be plentiful and impressive. And it’s not just about how much you work; it’s also who you’re working with. I think Deb is far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant and doesn’t make your 11-13 hour days feel like much longer.

The question you’ll have to weigh is if the higher chances of a more pleasant work environment (and yes, probably fewer hours as well over the course of a year) is worth the slight bump down in prestige.

"Far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant" lol at this flame from Debevoise anon. Look, Debevoise is a fine firm, I know a ton of people there. However, as others have said in this thread, Cravath is in a different league in terms of prestige and for corporate work, its not even close, Debevoise is not in the same tier. All top NYC shops work you to the bone, including Debevoise. Culture is more or less meaningless at large offices with large classes, your experience will depend on the individuals you work with.

This is significantly overstated. The gap in quality of work is not so significant as to make this a clear-cut choice (as you seem to be implying).

[Anonymous User]

Everyone I know at both firms works a ton. There is no pleasant culture at either firm. Go with Cravath for the name/exit options.

It’s not Cravath versus a mid-tier firm here though. Debevoise is one of the most prestigious firms in New York, and its exit options will still be plentiful and impressive. And it’s not just about how much you work; it’s also who you’re working with. I think Deb is far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant and doesn’t make your 11-13 hour days feel like much longer.

The question you’ll have to weigh is if the higher chances of a more pleasant work environment (and yes, probably fewer hours as well over the course of a year) is worth the slight bump down in prestige.

"Far more likely to put a team around you that is pleasant" lol at this flame from Debevoise anon. Look, Debevoise is a fine firm, I know a ton of people there. However, as others have said in this thread, Cravath is in a different league in terms of prestige and for corporate work, its not even close, Debevoise is not in the same tier. All top NYC shops work you to the bone, including Debevoise. Culture is more or less meaningless at large offices with large classes, your experience will depend on the individuals you work with.

In back to back sentences, you said Cravath and Deb aren’t in the same league and that “it’s not even close”, and then said Debevoise is one of the (presumably few) top NYC shops. Which is it?

I never claimed that they’re equal for corporate work; only that the drop off is relatively minor, and choosing Deb gets you better odds of nicer people and a more pleasant environment. And I’m not sure I understand your comment about culture— the culture of a firm is made up of individuals. Debevoise has a rep for a “nice” culture because the individual people there are, by and large, nice. Of course that doesn’t mean everyone is, but they didn’t get the rep out of thin air. I believe going to Deb gives you a higher chance of working with nicer INDIVIDUALS than does Cravath.

You may disagree or feel that the slightly higher prestige is worth the cost, but calling me a flame because I espoused a well known opinion seems... odd.

[Anonymous User]

TLS has really changed over the last couple of years when I did OCI.

Back then it was always go with fit. Check these old threads circa 2013/2014 asking the same question. Both polls picked Debevoise.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=236365

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=215344

[smokeylarue]

In back to back sentences, you said Cravath and Deb aren’t in the same league and that “it’s not even close”, and then said Debevoise is one of the (presumably few) top NYC shops. Which is it?

Debevoise anon- an analogy to make it clearer for you. Jimmy Butler is one of the top players in the NBA. However he is is not in the same category as Lebron or Durant or Steph or Harden or Westbrook or Anthony Davis, etc.

[Anonymous User]

In back to back sentences, you said Cravath and Deb aren’t in the same league and that “it’s not even close”, and then said Debevoise is one of the (presumably few) top NYC shops. Which is it?

Debevoise anon- an analogy to make it clearer for you. Jimmy Butler is one of the top players in the NBA. However he is is not in the same category as Lebron or Durant or Steph or Harden or Westbrook or Anthony Davis, etc.

While I appreciate the analogy, I don’t think it materially challenges any of my points. Also, I don’t think the Jimmy Butler comp does justice to Deb’s reputation in the NYC market. Finally, as a Bucks fan, I’m upset you threw Westbrook in there instead of Giannis.

[Anonymous User]

ex-debevoise associate chiming in again. I think you need to disabuse yourself of this idea that the firm is "nicer" than cravath-- it's remarkably effective marketing on the part of debevoise recruiting. I worked like a slave when I was there; the culture is "polite" and there is zero tolerance for screaming, but there was a lot of passive aggression and I was generally unhappy. I only "enjoyed" working with just two deal teams during my 3-year stint there, and for both deals, I pulled consecutive all-nighters that physically harmed me ("but hey! the people were collegial!" ). there was very little respect for my personal life or well-being, and my experience definitely was not isolated.

cravath does have more national / international cachet and you will have a deal sheet with much higher-profile transactions when you're ready to make the leap to another firm or in-house. that said, I did think that there were some cool opportunities to "run" mid-market PE deals as a fairly junior M&A associate at debevoise. I don't know if similar opportunities exist at cravath-- I'm not saying they don't, but my guess is that it'd be trickier on mega public deals.

[Anonymous User]

ex-debevoise associate chiming in again. I think you need to disabuse yourself of this idea that the firm is "nicer" than cravath-- it's remarkably effective marketing on the part of debevoise recruiting. I worked like a slave when I was there; the culture is "polite" and there is zero tolerance for screaming, but there was a lot of passive aggression and I was generally unhappy. I only "enjoyed" working with just two deal teams during my 3-year stint there, and for both deals, I pulled consecutive all-nighters that physically harmed me ("but hey! the people were collegial!" ). there was very little respect for my personal life or well-being, and my experience definitely was not isolated.

Same situation at my firm. The idea that firm A has nicer people than firm B is wrong. There are certain people who are difficult to work with at every firm. Generalizing and saying people at firm A are X is just wrong. Consecutive sleepless nights happen at every top corporate firm.