International Students Beware

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rk42

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby rk42 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:58 pm

Have any Canadians been having issues?

Npret

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Npret » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:28 pm

BeeTeeZ wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Nice to see that American law firms prefer to hire Americans

#MAGA


H1B sponsorship costs money. Applying as a foreign student is basically like saying, "I want to work for you as a first year, but I'll cost the firm more money than an American first year." For great candidates firms will pay that additional cost, but it makes business sense to hire an American over a foreign candidate, everything else being equal.


I think firms don’t care about the money, it’s not that much. They care about uncertainty inherent in the lottery process. They don’t want to bring people in for a year just to transfer them out or fire them in a year because the candidate lost the visa lottery. On top of that, there is political pressure to change the current system, so that adds to the uncertainty.

My understanding is the numbers of visas are the same but the number of applicants keeps rising, so the odds are lower now than they used to be that an associate will win the lottery.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:10 pm

Npret wrote:I think firms don’t care about the money, it’s not that much. They care about uncertainty inherent in the lottery process. They don’t want to bring people in for a year just to transfer them out or fire them in a year because the candidate lost the visa lottery. On top of that, there is political pressure to change the current system, so that adds to the uncertainty.

My understanding is the numbers of visas are the same but the number of applicants keeps rising, so the odds are lower now than they used to be that an associate will win the lottery.


Biglaw firms generally hire immigration law firms to do all the H1B work of their international associates. That costs them money. Taking into account the risk of failure to get H1B as well as the cost of filing the forms and engaging immigration firms, international associates are definitely costly.

But many internationally-oriented firms think international associates from certain countries could bring in certain advantages to the firm. Hence, although they will set a limit on how many internationals they will hire each year, they always plan to hire at least some.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:35 am

To OP:

In many Asian countries, foreign persons cannot sit for the foreign country's national bar exam (i.e. become a local licensed attorney).

Similarly, foreign law firms are restricted in what they can do and who they can hire.

The job advertisements require "native language x" and "local Asian bar license"; so, the restrictions and requirements work together to prevent foreign persons (such as Americans) from even being considered for almost all legal opportunities in the foreign country (not even considering local non-public policies working in the background to promote the hiring of citizens). Local restrictions also prevent foreign law firms from bringing over foreign lawyers.

So, I cannot agree with your logic or conclusions about what is "racist."

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:12 am

OP here.

My calling the firms racist wasn't actually based on the fact that they were asking people about their visa status. As I acknowledged in the original post, I get why it's a valid business concern for firms - it's expensive and hard to coordinate for all but the largest firms. The reason I called Ropes and Foley racist was rather that they were *only* asking Asian students that question, even when there are non-Asian international students, and obviously Asian Americans to whom that question was inappropriate.

The purpose of my post as a whole was to try and warn other international students about applying for positions at firms that I perceived to be not so H1B friendly, and in the process I think we got a lot of good information about what the visa policies at different firms are. Thank you for everyone who contributed so far.

Edit: To the poster above me, while I acknowledge your general point that it's hard for firms to transfer U.S. only qualified associates to different offices, you do realize that the international students in question will not be foreign nationals in their home countries, right?

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:25 am

It's pretty damn racist to single out Asian students for that question. I have no issue with firms who make every applicant fill out a boiler-plate form asking that question.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:It's pretty damn racist to single out Asian students for that question. I have no issue with firms who make every applicant fill out a boiler-plate form asking that question.


Sadly that is the reality of Asians in this country. No one else get asked “where are you from,” “but no, where are you really from.” But that is a whole different topic.

I do think most firms have it boiler-plate as standard form questions. Many of them just ask you on the website do you have work permit and will you need sponsorship.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:10 am

smokeylarue wrote:International kids definitely do worse at OCI from what i've seen. My theory:

1. English is not as good, so their law school exams/grades are not as good

2. English is not as good, so their interviewing is not as good

3. Risk of not winning the visa lottery, thereby forcing them to leave the country shortly after starting is a genuine concern. Seen it happen to so many people. The top firms with huge classes can weather losing an associate or two. Offices with small class sizes are less inclined to take a chance on an international kid.


From my experience, a huge 4th factor (I agree with all the above, maybe not 100% point 3 but it is definitely valid) is culture.

In a screener interview and a callback interview, the most you will ever interact with one person is 30 minutes. That is 30 minutes to make them like you, not just a little bit, but more than other people they are interviewing with. A South East Asian female, with no cultural similarities with a 60 year old, white, male partner who grew up in the suburbs and is a double Ivy League graduate will have nothing to talk about. The partner will not find them that interesting, and there is generally going to be a lack of common ground.

I had OCI a couple of weeks ago now and one of my fellow internationals went right before me with one firm, he said his interview was so awkward because the interviewer just didn't seem interested in anything on his resume and he couldn't figure out how to steer the conversation into something interested. I walk out of that screener having spoken for 20 minutes about the World Cup. Why? Because I'm from the UK and my screener loved soccer. COMMON GROUND.

It isn't racism or anything on purpose. People like people who are similar to them. This is natural. People get on with people whose interest section on their resume is interesting to them. People love to ask about your job in Italy because they did their study abroad in Florence. The interviewers are looking for people they want to be in an office with at 11:59pm when a deal is in crunch-mode, and unfortunately, many international students just don't give off that impression.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:20 am

Agreed about the cultural fit thing, but once again, the reason we're talking about racism is that firms intentionally selected just Asian students for the visa question. That needs to be addressed by schools' career services in the next recruiting cycle.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:Agreed about the cultural fit thing, but once again, the reason we're talking about racism is that firms intentionally selected just Asian students for the visa question. That needs to be addressed by schools' career services in the next recruiting cycle.


I've previously talked to career service at my T6 law school about employers discriminating against internationals in general, and was told there was nothing they can do about it even though they knew it was a problem.

They cannot risk the employers deciding not to come to OCI by calling out the employers, nor can they ban the employer from OCI for the same reason. All they can do is post a non-discrimination statement on Symplicity.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:It isn't racism or anything on purpose. People like people who are similar to them. This is natural.


Wow, just wow.

I think it is definitely, without an iota of doubt, discrimination. It's hilarious when you compare biglaw to other professions. Compare it to the world's top IT companies where there are a material number of non-whites in all positions, including executive. Compare it to medicine, which is also diverse.

As far as I can tell, biglaw is the last purely racist white-privileged employer on the planet. It's hilarious to open a biglaw attorney section and see nothing but white folks in the high-paid partner positions. You can also see this on (not tls) law student forums, like autoadmit.com which are viciously racist. Do you think you'll see something like that on a medicine or technology forum?

Bottom line is this. As international students who chose law, you have to be pioneers in what is frankly a racist profession. You're disadvantaged relative to your friends who went into tech, medicine or banking, which are more meritocratic and welcoming of minorities. Law is about persuading some judge, who is usually white, and the person I'm replying to is correct, such judges might be racist and they will be more likely to listen to someone who looks like them.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

My calling the firms racist wasn't actually based on the fact that they were asking people about their visa status. As I acknowledged in the original post, I get why it's a valid business concern for firms - it's expensive and hard to coordinate for all but the largest firms. The reason I called Ropes and Foley racist was rather that they were *only* asking Asian students that question, even when there are non-Asian international students, and obviously Asian Americans to whom that question was inappropriate.

The purpose of my post as a whole was to try and warn other international students about applying for positions at firms that I perceived to be not so H1B friendly, and in the process I think we got a lot of good information about what the visa policies at different firms are. Thank you for everyone who contributed so far.

Edit: To the poster above me, while I acknowledge your general point that it's hard for firms to transfer U.S. only qualified associates to different offices, you do realize that the international students in question will not be foreign nationals in their home countries, right?


Of course, which is a key point. The international students dodge the work permit requirements/restrictions in their home countries (can go home and work at the overseas US office or the local law firm office without the work permit requirements/restriction).

On another note, asking someone if they will need work sponsorship is a valid question. Whether they targeted only Asians is another issue. What support do you have that they targeted only Asians with this question?

As someone who has worked in Asia extensively, what you consider "racist" seems very superficial (and anecdotal). I doubt any of those firms were looking to exclude/target you based on you being Asian.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here.

My calling the firms racist wasn't actually based on the fact that they were asking people about their visa status. As I acknowledged in the original post, I get why it's a valid business concern for firms - it's expensive and hard to coordinate for all but the largest firms. The reason I called Ropes and Foley racist was rather that they were *only* asking Asian students that question, even when there are non-Asian international students, and obviously Asian Americans to whom that question was inappropriate.

The purpose of my post as a whole was to try and warn other international students about applying for positions at firms that I perceived to be not so H1B friendly, and in the process I think we got a lot of good information about what the visa policies at different firms are. Thank you for everyone who contributed so far.

Edit: To the poster above me, while I acknowledge your general point that it's hard for firms to transfer U.S. only qualified associates to different offices, you do realize that the international students in question will not be foreign nationals in their home countries, right?


Of course, which is a key point. The international students dodge the work permit requirements/restrictions in their home countries (can go home and work at the overseas US office or the local law firm office without the work permit requirements/restriction).

On another note, asking someone if they will need work sponsorship is a valid question. Whether they targeted only Asians is another issue. What support do you have that they targeted only Asians with this question?

As someone who has worked in Asia extensively, what you consider "racist" seems very superficial (and anecdotal). I doubt any of those firms were looking to exclude/target you based on you being Asian.


In the case of Ropes, the only students who reported back that problem to career services were Asian. In the case of Foley, the interviewer specifically told the interviewee that it was a standard question they asked of all applicants, but after the incident with Ropes career services was suspicious and asked other white students who had the same interviewer if they got that question, and they said they hadn't.

I also think that you're really not getting why I'm saying that what the firms did was racist. I'm not saying that the firms specifically sought to exclude me or other students from consideration on the basis of race, which appears to be your definition of racism. I'm saying that by targeting only Asian students to ask about their citizenship status and assuming that they and they only might be non-Americans, sometimes justifiably, sometimes not, those firms perpetuate the notion of Asians in the U.S. as perpetual foreigners. Holding that kind of attitude towards Asians as a group is what I'm saying is racist.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It isn't racism or anything on purpose. People like people who are similar to them. This is natural.


Wow, just wow.

I think it is definitely, without an iota of doubt, discrimination. It's hilarious when you compare biglaw to other professions. Compare it to the world's top IT companies where there are a material number of non-whites in all positions, including executive. Compare it to medicine, which is also diverse.

As far as I can tell, biglaw is the last purely racist white-privileged employer on the planet. It's hilarious to open a biglaw attorney section and see nothing but white folks in the high-paid partner positions. You can also see this on (not tls) law student forums, like autoadmit.com which are viciously racist. Do you think you'll see something like that on a medicine or technology forum?

Bottom line is this. As international students who chose law, you have to be pioneers in what is frankly a racist profession. You're disadvantaged relative to your friends who went into tech, medicine or banking, which are more meritocratic and welcoming of minorities. Law is about persuading some judge, who is usually white, and the person I'm replying to is correct, such judges might be racist and they will be more likely to listen to someone who looks like them.


Go to a big law website. Review their office locations in Asian Country X. Report back to us on the level of diversity/ethnicity breakdown compared to the US offices.

While you are at it, let us know how many white judges, attorneys, or politicians there are working in the particular Asian country. Let us know if a white person can even practice the local Asian law.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote: this is what they said would happen if people were to put these things on their resumes. Clearly despite people in this thread doing such a bizarre thing, the firm's don't get many applicants who do this and wouldn't like it if they did. But yes, this is the exact sentiment given to me by the 15 firms I've spoken to about this over the past 2 years.


Not one, let alone 15, HR professionals told you that they summarily reject candidates on this basis. This would be an unbelievably stupid thing to say, even if they were trying to say that they want to avoid the appearance of discrimination. They certainly would not be dumb enough to say it some random law student. Why don't you just put forth your opinion, without making up 15 bogus conversations that never happened?

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Go to a big law website. Review their office locations in Asian Country X. Report back to us on the level of diversity/ethnicity breakdown compared to the US offices.

While you are at it, let us know how many white judges, attorneys, or politicians there are working in the particular Asian country. Let us know if a white person can even practice the local Asian law.


OK.

https://www.debevoise.com/aboutus/offic ... fessionals

https://www.gibsondunn.com/?search=lawyer&s=&office[]=1707

https://www.lw.com/attorneyBioSearch.as ... bnailsView

. . .

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It isn't racism or anything on purpose. People like people who are similar to them. This is natural.


Wow, just wow.

I think it is definitely, without an iota of doubt, discrimination. It's hilarious when you compare biglaw to other professions. Compare it to the world's top IT companies where there are a material number of non-whites in all positions, including executive. Compare it to medicine, which is also diverse.

As far as I can tell, biglaw is the last purely racist white-privileged employer on the planet. It's hilarious to open a biglaw attorney section and see nothing but white folks in the high-paid partner positions. You can also see this on (not tls) law student forums, like autoadmit.com which are viciously racist. Do you think you'll see something like that on a medicine or technology forum?

Bottom line is this. As international students who chose law, you have to be pioneers in what is frankly a racist profession. You're disadvantaged relative to your friends who went into tech, medicine or banking, which are more meritocratic and welcoming of minorities. Law is about persuading some judge, who is usually white, and the person I'm replying to is correct, such judges might be racist and they will be more likely to listen to someone who looks like them.


Go to a big law website. Review their office locations in Asian Country X. Report back to us on the level of diversity/ethnicity breakdown compared to the US offices.

While you are at it, let us know how many white judges, attorneys, or politicians there are working in the particular Asian country. Let us know if a white person can even practice the local Asian law.


No OP, but jesus fucking christ... are you literally trying to compare the diversity breakdown in the US, a country built by immigrants, with historically single-race East Asian countries? How do you know the fact that white people don't practice local Asian law is not due to self-selection or language barriers? Your ignorance is appalling.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Go to a big law website. Review their office locations in Asian Country X. Report back to us on the level of diversity/ethnicity breakdown compared to the US offices.

While you are at it, let us know how many white judges, attorneys, or politicians there are working in the particular Asian country. Let us know if a white person can even practice the local Asian law.


OK.

https://www.debevoise.com/aboutus/offic ... fessionals

https://www.gibsondunn.com/?search=lawyer&s=&office[]=1707

https://www.lw.com/attorneyBioSearch.as ... bnailsView

. . .


Hong Kong is an Asian "Country"? What is the history of Hong Kong?

India?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 288085.cms

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It isn't racism or anything on purpose. People like people who are similar to them. This is natural.


Wow, just wow.

I think it is definitely, without an iota of doubt, discrimination. It's hilarious when you compare biglaw to other professions. Compare it to the world's top IT companies where there are a material number of non-whites in all positions, including executive. Compare it to medicine, which is also diverse.

As far as I can tell, biglaw is the last purely racist white-privileged employer on the planet. It's hilarious to open a biglaw attorney section and see nothing but white folks in the high-paid partner positions. You can also see this on (not tls) law student forums, like autoadmit.com which are viciously racist. Do you think you'll see something like that on a medicine or technology forum?

Bottom line is this. As international students who chose law, you have to be pioneers in what is frankly a racist profession. You're disadvantaged relative to your friends who went into tech, medicine or banking, which are more meritocratic and welcoming of minorities. Law is about persuading some judge, who is usually white, and the person I'm replying to is correct, such judges might be racist and they will be more likely to listen to someone who looks like them.


Go to a big law website. Review their office locations in Asian Country X. Report back to us on the level of diversity/ethnicity breakdown compared to the US offices.

While you are at it, let us know how many white judges, attorneys, or politicians there are working in the particular Asian country. Let us know if a white person can even practice the local Asian law.


No OP, but jesus fucking christ... are you literally trying to compare the diversity breakdown in the US, a country built by immigrants, with historically single-race East Asian countries? How do you know the fact that white people don't practice local Asian law is not due to self-selection or language barriers? Your ignorance is appalling.


Sure buddy, it is self-selection and language barriers:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 288085.cms

Lol, "language barriers" and "self-selection" -- dolt.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:28 pm

I'm afraid this thread is starting to go off the rails and lose its original purpose as a place to share information about firms' visa sponsorship policies. Unless people have more relevant information in that regard, I'm going to ask to lock this thread if possible.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm afraid this thread is starting to go off the rails and lose its original purpose as a place to share information about firms' visa sponsorship policies. Unless people have more relevant information in that regard, I'm going to ask to lock this thread if possible.


Sad to see it got derailed. But this threat was very helpful. If nothing else, it made me realized I was not the only person with the kind of job search experience I had.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:08 pm

Hmm, I actually think the secondary purpose of this thread (whether certain ethnicity groups are at risk of being perceived as foreign regardless of their citizenship status and background) is quite valuable in its own right.

I'm an American-born Asian who did fine at OCI a few cycles ago, and it never crossed my mind that things such as firms specifically targeting only Asian students with sponsorship questions were taking place at big-name firms. When I interviewed, I filled out this questions on what seemed to be standard forms. Had it been made clear to me that only Asian students were being given these forms, that would have been very demoralizing. Experiences like these are incredibly hurtful to Asian-Americans.

I get that career services can't stop firms from doing what they will with sponsorship decisions, but I'm surprised they can't stop firms from behavior that is frankly a textbook example of racism.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hmm, I actually think the secondary purpose of this thread (whether certain ethnicity groups are at risk of being perceived as foreign regardless of their citizenship status and background) is quite valuable in its own right.

I'm an American-born Asian who did fine at OCI a few cycles ago, and it never crossed my mind that things such as firms specifically targeting only Asian students with sponsorship questions were taking place at big-name firms. When I interviewed, I filled out this questions on what seemed to be standard forms. Had it been made clear to me that only Asian students were being given these forms, that would have been very demoralizing. Experiences like these are incredibly hurtful to Asian-Americans.

I get that career services can't stop firms from doing what they will with sponsorship decisions, but I'm surprised they can't stop firms from behavior that is frankly a textbook example of racism.


I agree, it's been really interesting hearing people's different perspectives. However, I don't want this to turn into an argument over what constitutes racism, or whether white people experience reverse racism in Asian countries. If people want to talk about that, I'm going to ask that they do it on a separate thread.

In terms of the OCI experience itself, I was also surprised that it happened, even with just two firms. I think though that our career services got sufficiently pissed at them + they've probably realized that making students think they're racist is not the way to go for recruiting, that they'll likely abstain in the future. My hope is that my school (HYS) has sufficient bargaining power with firms that they'll take our anti-discrimination policies a little more seriously going forward. If anything, I expect that starting next year firms will just ask everyone to fill out a form regarding their visa status, which I have much less of an issue with.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:50 am

.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:51 am

rk42 wrote:Have any Canadians been having issues?


Not even close. In fact, after reading this thread, I'm glad that my Canadian UG was prominently displayed on my resume, and I always identified myself as Canadian (just because I really do feel that I'm Canadian). All the firms that offered me were basically white male paradise.



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