International Students Beware

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:HOLY COW THIS IS HORRENDOUS ADVICE. ABSOLUTELY 100% DO NOT PUT ON YOUR RESUME THAT YOU'RE A CITIZEN. WOW. NO. NO. NO. Yes, you can bring it up in your interview if the discussion allows for it. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES PUT 'I AM A US CITIZEN OR PERMANENT RESIDENT ON YOUR FRICKIN RESUME'. Firm's are not allowed to discriminate based on these things (between citizen and green card) hence, they ask "do you have work authorization" because they can discriminate based on that. If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen. Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card.

Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


If that works for you, great. I rather it be beyond shadow of a doubt that I don't need sponsorship. Employers are not allow to discriminate, but they do anyway; all you can do is to make yourself as marketable as possible, and knowing you don't need sponsorship make you more marketable.

Our career service told us to absolutely put PR/Citizenship on the resume especially if your name look foreign. And maybe V50 are used to sponsoring, but majority of law firms don't, and certainly not smaller firms outside of major markets.


You're right, my advice is heavily geared towards big law. But international students aren't targeting anything other than big law precisely because we all know they're the only people who sponsor, so my advice still stands. Your career's services, if giving advice for big law is baffling, if geared towards smaller shops then yes, fine. But a big law firm doesn't care if they have to get the visa, they do it all the time.

For what it's worth, the only people I see struggling through the process and for jobs at my school's OCI are East Asian (mainly Chinese) students. That isn't because of their visa situation, that's because their English is horrible and you wouldn't want to put it in front of a client, visa situation or otherwise.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:32 pm

Non-U.S. citizen (foreign name and all my experience before law school was in foreign countries), T-14. I believe most of the firms I interviewed asked me to fill the form indicating whether I need sponsor H1B in the cb stage, but I have gotten offers from several biglaw (even the ones asked me that questions).

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I had to leave my previous firm because I did not win the H1B lottery. It sucks but there really isn’t much a firm can do in that situation. I feel like we should be thankful they’re at least willing to sponsor H1B where many firms straight up refuse to sponsor.

Takeaway: if you are a PR or a citizen, ALWAYS put that on your resume and bring it up during the interview so they know you don’t need sponsorship.


Thank you for this. What would you advise if I didn't mention this in my previous callbacks? Is it necessary to send another email to the hiring partner (who I interviewed with) to clarify before they make a decision?


No. How weird would that be. Wait until you get an offer, then say, hey, btw, what is your policy regarding the H-1B?


I'm the previous anon who told everyone at cb that I grew up abroad and moved to the US for college. I have obtained my green card only recently. My main concern is that they would ding me assuming I need sponsorship before I have a chance to explain. What else can I do? Thanks.


You said you weren't a rising 2L and were looking to go in house right? I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're a couple year's out of law school already? If so, then they can see you're already working in the US and it probably wouldn't cross their mind that you might not be able to work.

I think you're worrying about nothing, if they have an issue about sponsoring a visa and they think it applies to you then they'll ask as a contingency of the offer or something like that.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:35 pm

This is a great thread. Very realistic and true. Wouldn't suggest any international students apply for Cadwalader.

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jjcorvino

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby jjcorvino » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This happened to me in NY (as an Asian who grew up in the US, and who worked for a law enforcement component of the DOJ prior to law school so obviously a citizen). It was awkward being pulled aside and asked to fill out the form while other (non-Asian) candidates were casually chatting with each other before the callbacks.


Thats odd, I am as white as they come and I had to fill out/answer those questions at every CB I went to. Not doubting you, maybe some firms are more selective about who they ask.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is a great thread. Very realistic and true. Wouldn't suggest any international students apply for Cadwalader.


Can't remember which one, but I remember when I was applying, some BIGLAW simply put on their websites that they would not sponsor visas except for Canadians. Just be sure you double check their websites too.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:40 pm

jjcorvino wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This happened to me in NY (as an Asian who grew up in the US, and who worked for a law enforcement component of the DOJ prior to law school so obviously a citizen). It was awkward being pulled aside and asked to fill out the form while other (non-Asian) candidates were casually chatting with each other before the callbacks.


Thats odd, I am as white as they come and I had to fill out/answer those questions at every CB I went to. Not doubting you, maybe some firms are more selective about who they ask.


Also as white as it comes, also had to fill it out for Akin Gump and my resume doesn't make it clear where I'm from so it might just be protocol for a few.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:54 pm

Just want to add another .02.

Outside of biglaw, IP firms are generally more open to sponsorship. I did not try this myself, but if you are doing patent, you might qualify for STEM OPT Extension that can possibly give you up to two chances in the H1B lottery.

[Check with your immigration lawyer on this]

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What other firms are known for firing people if they don't win the H1B lottery?


Opposite of your question, but:

HYS international, summered with two different v10 firms 1L and 2L. Both firms explicitly mentioned in recruiting me that they would be happy to place me in an appropriate foreign office if their were any problems with my H1B.

The firm I ultimately chose successfully sponsored me, has been enormously supportive, and this experience is shared by other friends working for firms in the v10 realm.

My takeaway is that if you are an international student, you should be looking for a very large, experienced firm with good HR support, and a good spread of offices in other countries. A large summer class will make it easier for them to accept that you may only make it through the OPT period with them before leaving.

I would not recommend being an international student and an otherwise marginal candidate, but if you were competitive anyway, I wouldn’t worry any more than anyone else about recruiting if you are already in the game. However, visa issues are always stressful and gambling your future on lottery outcomes is never good for the soul, so for 0Ls, I would think twice about the risks you are taking in getting your JD in the USA and relying on a pretty broken system to see a return on that investment.


Can I ask you which firm is one you "ultimately chose"? I'm currently trying to decide which offer to take among five or so V10 firms, and would really appreciate your insights. Besides asking about their visa policy, not sure how to tell which ones will be supportive.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:18 pm

To be honest, nearly ALL firms that I interviewed with have asked me different variations of this question—Are you from XX (the state where I did my undergraduate study). I know that it is straightforward discrimination to ask “where are you from”. However, I feel the variation was just a “smart” way to get to the same answer without being offensive. (Because I would not say No to their question without providing further information.)

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:HOLY COW THIS IS HORRENDOUS ADVICE. ABSOLUTELY 100% DO NOT PUT ON YOUR RESUME THAT YOU'RE A CITIZEN. WOW. NO. NO. NO. Yes, you can bring it up in your interview if the discussion allows for it. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES PUT 'I AM A US CITIZEN OR PERMANENT RESIDENT ON YOUR FRICKIN RESUME'. Firm's are not allowed to discriminate based on these things (between citizen and green card) hence, they ask "do you have work authorization" because they can discriminate based on that. If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen. Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card.

Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


If that works for you, great. I rather it be beyond shadow of a doubt that I don't need sponsorship. Employers are not allow to discriminate, but they do anyway; all you can do is to make yourself as marketable as possible, and knowing you don't need sponsorship make you more marketable.

Our career service told us to absolutely put PR/Citizenship on the resume especially if your name look foreign. And maybe V50 are used to sponsoring, but majority of law firms don't, and certainly not smaller firms outside of major markets.


I have a very foreign sounding name. Adding green card to my resume has gotten a way better response rate and I never get asked about it. I will keep it because it has worked for me in that I can talk about "international experience" while communicating that they will not have to jump through hoops to employ me.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:24 pm

I have had to fill this out for all of my CBs too and. Am as white as they come.

I have heard from a few V50 recruiters that the visa situation is a bit more precarious this year because of current going’s on in politics, so I don’t doubt that firms are more concerned with it this year.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby QContinuum » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen.


So firms reject folks who put "green card" on their resume out of fear that these people "might think it's discrimination" if they're rejected? That doesn't add up. If anything, logic dictates that firms fearing that people "might think it's discrimination because [they're] an immigrant" would bend over backwards to interview/hire green card holders.

Anonymous User wrote:Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card. Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


So you're claiming 15 of the V50 have confirmed (!) via HR (!!) that they have a policy/practice of "reject[ing] everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen," i.e., everyone who isn't white??

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:38 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen.


So firms reject folks who put "green card" on their resume out of fear that these people "might think it's discrimination" if they're rejected? That doesn't add up. If anything, logic dictates that firms fearing that people "might think it's discrimination because [they're] an immigrant" would bend over backwards to interview/hire green card holders.

Anonymous User wrote:Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card. Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


So you're claiming 15 of the V50 have confirmed (!) via HR (!!) that they have a policy/practice of "reject[ing] everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen," i.e., everyone who isn't white??


Jones Day asked me to fill out if I would need a work visa to work here as well. And this was when I got to the reception (right before the interview). I'm an Asian candidate though (grew up in the US).
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This happened to me in NY (as an Asian who grew up in the US, and who worked for a law enforcement component of the DOJ prior to law school so obviously a citizen). It was awkward being pulled aside and asked to fill out the form while other (non-Asian) candidates were casually chatting with each other before the callbacks.


Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What other firms are known for firing people if they don't win the H1B lottery?


Opposite of your question, but:

HYS international, summered with two different v10 firms 1L and 2L. Both firms explicitly mentioned in recruiting me that they would be happy to place me in an appropriate foreign office if their were any problems with my H1B.

The firm I ultimately chose successfully sponsored me, has been enormously supportive, and this experience is shared by other friends working for firms in the v10 realm.

My takeaway is that if you are an international student, you should be looking for a very large, experienced firm with good HR support, and a good spread of offices in other countries. A large summer class will make it easier for them to accept that you may only make it through the OPT period with them before leaving.

I would not recommend being an international student and an otherwise marginal candidate, but if you were competitive anyway, I wouldn’t worry any more than anyone else about recruiting if you are already in the game. However, visa issues are always stressful and gambling your future on lottery outcomes is never good for the soul, so for 0Ls, I would think twice about the risks you are taking in getting your JD in the USA and relying on a pretty broken system to see a return on that investment.


Anonymous User wrote:I had to leave my previous firm because I did not win the H1B lottery. It sucks but there really isn’t much a firm can do in that situation. I feel like we should be thankful they’re at least willing to sponsor H1B where many firms straight up refuse to sponsor.

Takeaway: if you are a PR or a citizen, ALWAYS put that on your resume and bring it up during the interview so they know you don’t need sponsorship.


Would you guys mind sharing the names of the firms that you're talking about? I'd be down to compile a list of firms' visa policies if there are enough responses here. Personally, I really struggled figuring out what firms I should be applying for as an international student, and I think it would be helpful to other students in the future if there's a central list somewhere.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would you guys mind sharing the names of the firms that you're talking about? I'd be down to compile a list of firms' visa policies if there are enough responses here. Personally, I really struggled figuring out what firms I should be applying for as an international student, and I think it would be helpful to other students in the future if there's a central list somewhere.


I am one of those posters you quoted. I cannot give you the name of the firms because there were so many. A lot of firms nowadays ask you "are you legally authorized to work in the US" and "do you now or in the future require visa sponsorship" on some forms.

I think as an international, you should still apply to as many firms and cast a wide net. Just be realistic and know that you (we) have an extra barrier than domestics because of this visa issue.

I lost my previous job due to not winning the H1B lottery, but that makes me even more thankful now that I have my greencard. It is definitely not easy being an immigrant in this country.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:35 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen.


So firms reject folks who put "green card" on their resume out of fear that these people "might think it's discrimination" if they're rejected? That doesn't add up. If anything, logic dictates that firms fearing that people "might think it's discrimination because [they're] an immigrant" would bend over backwards to interview/hire green card holders.

Anonymous User wrote:Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card. Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


So you're claiming 15 of the V50 have confirmed (!) via HR (!!) that they have a policy/practice of "reject[ing] everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen," i.e., everyone who isn't white??


Maybe I wasn't clear or misspoke, this is what they said would happen if people were to put these things on their resumes. Clearly despite people in this thread doing such a bizarre thing, the firm's don't get many applicants who do this and wouldn't like it if they did. But yes, this is the exact sentiment given to me by the 15 firms I've spoken to about this over the past 2 years.

But, you know, don't mind me, just a median student with nine v50 offers from 15 callbacks without once mentioning a visa issue until after the offer stage. :D

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would you guys mind sharing the names of the firms that you're talking about? I'd be down to compile a list of firms' visa policies if there are enough responses here. Personally, I really struggled figuring out what firms I should be applying for as an international student, and I think it would be helpful to other students in the future if there's a central list somewhere.


I am one of those posters you quoted. I cannot give you the name of the firms because there were so many. A lot of firms nowadays ask you "are you legally authorized to work in the US" and "do you now or in the future require visa sponsorship" on some forms.

I think as an international, you should still apply to as many firms and cast a wide net. Just be realistic and know that you (we) have an extra barrier than domestics because of this visa issue.

I lost my previous job due to not winning the H1B lottery, but that makes me even more thankful now that I have my greencard. It is definitely not easy being an immigrant in this country.


Spot on. Apply to as many as possible and then you can choose firms based on how good they are about immigration.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Honestly, a lot of it comes down to partner support. As long as you have a partner sympathetic to your case and likes your work, the road to H1B is possible. But it's a lot harder compared to finance for whatever reason. A lot of firms will say it's a case-by-case basis. My firm agreed to sponsor a green card for a lateral in a practice area that was needing people, but refused to sponsor green card in another area that was slow. So it is very situation-specific.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If a firm sees that they will run a mile if you're a marginal candidate because they don't want to be put in an awkward position. E.g. you have green card on your resume, get rejected, you might think it's discrimination because you're an immigrant not a citizen.


So firms reject folks who put "green card" on their resume out of fear that these people "might think it's discrimination" if they're rejected? That doesn't add up. If anything, logic dictates that firms fearing that people "might think it's discrimination because [they're] an immigrant" would bend over backwards to interview/hire green card holders.

Anonymous User wrote:Guess what, they reject everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen so as to not appear discriminatory vis a vis citizen / green card. Have had this info backed up by career services, as well as HR at, to date, 15 of the V50.


So you're claiming 15 of the V50 have confirmed (!) via HR (!!) that they have a policy/practice of "reject[ing] everyone who might not appear to be a natural born US citizen," i.e., everyone who isn't white??


Maybe I wasn't clear or misspoke, this is what they said would happen if people were to put these things on their resumes. Clearly despite people in this thread doing such a bizarre thing, the firm's don't get many applicants who do this and wouldn't like it if they did. But yes, this is the exact sentiment given to me by the 15 firms I've spoken to about this over the past 2 years.

But, you know, don't mind me, just a median student with nine v50 offers from 15 callbacks without once mentioning a visa issue until after the offer stage. :D


Hardoooooo.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:14 am

Nice to see that American law firms prefer to hire Americans

#MAGA

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby Npret » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Nice to see that American law firms prefer to hire Americans

#MAGA

More anon nonsense.
You’re happy that law firms comply with the law? That’s what we are discussing here.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby BeeTeeZ » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:57 pm

[/quote]
Anonymous User wrote:Nice to see that American law firms prefer to hire Americans

#MAGA


H1B sponsorship costs money. Applying as a foreign student is basically like saying, "I want to work for you as a first year, but I'll cost the firm more money than an American first year." For great candidates firms will pay that additional cost, but it makes business sense to hire an American over a foreign candidate, everything else being equal.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby smokeylarue » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:20 pm

International kids definitely do worse at OCI from what i've seen. My theory:

1. English is not as good, so their law school exams/grades are not as good

2. English is not as good, so their interviewing is not as good

3. Risk of not winning the visa lottery, thereby forcing them to leave the country shortly after starting is a genuine concern. Seen it happen to so many people. The top firms with huge classes can weather losing an associate or two. Offices with small class sizes are less inclined to take a chance on an international kid.

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Re: International Students Beware

Postby tlsthrowaway1 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Was it always like this? Is this related to something Trump did?



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