Dallas - V&E; HayBoo; T&K Forum

[Anonymous User]

Trying to determine which of these firm (in Dallas specifically) has the best reputation for being humane/family-friendly. Can anyone provide any anecdotes, personal experiences, or general impressions of these firms?

[Anonymous User]

Trying to determine which of these firm (in Dallas specifically) has the best reputation for being humane/family-friendly. Can anyone provide any anecdotes, personal experiences, or general impressions of these firms?

I think it depends a little bit on what you want. If you want to make partner, then you will have to bust your ass at V&E kissing up to the Houston power players and make sure you bill more than everyone else in Dallas your year. And, even then, you might not make it. At HB or TK, your partnership chances are higher, but (assuming you're not in HB's litigation section) your hours will be generally similar to that of V&E (unless you're the one fighting to make partner there). HB's litigation section is crazy slow, so if you really just want biglaw for a few years without having to work too hard and then to go in house, I might do that. Otherwise, if you want somewhere where you can have a family and shot at making partner, I would do HB transactional or TK. But if you want to guarantee you'll be paid the most once bonuses are included and don't want to make partner, I would go to VE and just try to fly under the radar.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to determine which of these firm (in Dallas specifically) has the best reputation for being humane/family-friendly. Can anyone provide any anecdotes, personal experiences, or general impressions of these firms?

I think it depends a little bit on what you want. If you want to make partner, then you will have to bust your ass at V&E kissing up to the Houston power players and make sure you bill more than everyone else in Dallas your year. And, even then, you might not make it. At HB or TK, your partnership chances are higher, but (assuming you're not in HB's litigation section) your hours will be generally similar to that of V&E (unless you're the one fighting to make partner there). HB's litigation section is crazy slow, so if you really just want biglaw for a few years without having to work too hard and then to go in house, I might do that. Otherwise, if you want somewhere where you can have a family and shot at making partner, I would do HB transactional or TK. But if you want to guarantee you'll be paid the most once bonuses are included and don't want to make partner, I would go to VE and just try to fly under the radar.

I want to do litigation and eventually get a government job (maybe federal public defender). So, the plan is only a few years to save some money. So, HB is best for that?

[Anonymous User]

Trying to determine which of these firm (in Dallas specifically) has the best reputation for being humane/family-friendly. Can anyone provide any anecdotes, personal experiences, or general impressions of these firms?

I think it depends a little bit on what you want. If you want to make partner, then you will have to bust your ass at V&E kissing up to the Houston power players and make sure you bill more than everyone else in Dallas your year. And, even then, you might not make it. At HB or TK, your partnership chances are higher, but (assuming you're not in HB's litigation section) your hours will be generally similar to that of V&E (unless you're the one fighting to make partner there). HB's litigation section is crazy slow, so if you really just want biglaw for a few years without having to work too hard and then to go in house, I might do that. Otherwise, if you want somewhere where you can have a family and shot at making partner, I would do HB transactional or TK. But if you want to guarantee you'll be paid the most once bonuses are included and don't want to make partner, I would go to VE and just try to fly under the radar.

I want to do litigation and eventually get a government job (maybe federal public defender). So, the plan is only a few years to save some money. So, HB is best for that?

Yeah if you’re ok being really slow for those few years and likely not getting great experience and possibly not even getting full Cravath base after the first year.

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

It is my impression that TK’s Lit group is the “best” of the Dallas-based firms in terms of quality of work. But that none of the Dallas-based firms are quite on the same level as VE/GDC/BB/Sidley/Winston.

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

I'm a BB Dallas associate, not in lit but can say that it seems like all or almost all of the litigators clear out by like 6 or 6:30. I'm sure they log back on later but it seems like they have the ability to go home for dinner, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

I'm a BB Dallas associate, not in lit but can say that it seems like all or almost all of the litigators clear out by like 6 or 6:30. I'm sure they log back on later but it seems like they have the ability to go home for dinner, etc.

What time do people tend to get in? Do you have impressions about any of the other firms?

[Anonymous User]

Trying to determine which of these firm (in Dallas specifically) has the best reputation for being humane/family-friendly. Can anyone provide any anecdotes, personal experiences, or general impressions of these firms?

I think it depends a little bit on what you want. If you want to make partner, then you will have to bust your ass at V&E kissing up to the Houston power players and make sure you bill more than everyone else in Dallas your year. And, even then, you might not make it. At HB or TK, your partnership chances are higher, but (assuming you're not in HB's litigation section) your hours will be generally similar to that of V&E (unless you're the one fighting to make partner there). HB's litigation section is crazy slow, so if you really just want biglaw for a few years without having to work too hard and then to go in house, I might do that. Otherwise, if you want somewhere where you can have a family and shot at making partner, I would do HB transactional or TK. But if you want to guarantee you'll be paid the most once bonuses are included and don't want to make partner, I would go to VE and just try to fly under the radar.

I want to do litigation and eventually get a government job (maybe federal public defender). So, the plan is only a few years to save some money. So, HB is best for that?

Yeah if you’re ok being really slow for those few years and likely not getting great experience and possibly not even getting full Cravath base after the first year.

Isn't "great experience" relatively rare for a junior associate at any major firm? I'm not disagreeing with you but just thought that's kind of expected from biglaw no matter where you go.

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

It is my impression that TK’s Lit group is the “best” of the Dallas-based firms in terms of quality of work. But that none of the Dallas-based firms are quite on the same level as VE/GDC/BB/Sidley/Winston.

Isn't McKool Dallas-based? It's up there with GDC and probably above Sidley/VE, especially if you're going for trial work. It's the only firm in Dallas that is band 1 in Chambers Texas general litigation. I wouldn't think TK even comes close.

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

I'm a BB Dallas associate, not in lit but can say that it seems like all or almost all of the litigators clear out by like 6 or 6:30. I'm sure they log back on later but it seems like they have the ability to go home for dinner, etc.

What time do people tend to get in? Do you have impressions about any of the other firms?

Probably get in between 8:30 and 9:30. Sorry, not really sure about comparing to other firms.

[Pneumonia]

For lit in particular, and if choosing solely based on quality of life, I would pick TK here and I don't think it's close. Certainly not to V&E. I'm not familiar with HB's Dallas litigation group, but I always got the impression that the Dallas office worked pretty hard.

[Anonymous User]

For lit in particular, and if choosing solely based on quality of life, I would pick TK here and I don't think it's close. Certainly not to V&E. I'm not familiar with HB's Dallas litigation group, but I always got the impression that the Dallas office worked pretty hard.

Thank you. This is helpful!

[Anonymous User]

Along with Jackson Walker, HayBoo and T&K are probably the closest things to "lifestyle firms" that you have in Dallas (relatively speaking ... people still work extremely hard). Both (especially T&K) are fairly low on the litigation totem pole in Dallas, so you could be trading off QoL for long-term career prospects.

Among the top half of the litigation firms in Dallas, I get the impression that Baker Botts is most family-friendly (in relative terms again of course).

It is my impression that TK’s Lit group is the “best” of the Dallas-based firms in terms of quality of work. But that none of the Dallas-based firms are quite on the same level as VE/GDC/BB/Sidley/Winston.

Isn't McKool Dallas-based? It's up there with GDC and probably above Sidley/VE, especially if you're going for trial work. It's the only firm in Dallas that is band 1 in Chambers Texas general litigation. I wouldn't think TK even comes close.

Yeah I was more referring to full-service shops. Certainly McKool gets “better” work than TK (or JW, HB, Winstead, Locke, etc).

[Anonymous User]

Another thing to keep in mind is "all in" compensation. Both TK and HayBoo have tricked up compensation models. If you don't hit 2000 hours you don't get a bonus and you also don't move up a class year for base salary (with some weird catch up the next year if you do make hours). Also, I think you need to hit more than 2200+ to get NY bonus at each of these firms. As a junior you don't control your hours. So that makes it tough even if you want to hit 2000+.

That can turn into big a difference in compensation compared to VE (and Gibson Dunn/Sidley/BB/Akin). Especially if all you are trying to save money to leave Big Law. At these firms you move up class year regardless of hours for base salary. And you get NY bonus at 2000 hours (with high billers getting more at least at VE). May not seem like a big difference for 1/2 years but starts to become huge as a mid level and senior.

[Anonymous User]

Another thing to keep in mind is "all in" compensation. Both TK and HayBoo have tricked up compensation models. If you don't hit 2000 hours you don't get a bonus and you also don't move up a class year for base salary (with some weird catch up the next year if you do make hours). Also, I think you need to hit more than 2200+ to get NY bonus at each of these firms. As a junior you don't control your hours. So that makes it tough even if you want to hit 2000+.

That can turn into big a difference in compensation compared to VE (and Gibson Dunn/Sidley/BB/Akin). Especially if all you are trying to save money to leave Big Law. At these firms you move up class year regardless of hours for base salary. And you get NY bonus at 2000 hours (with high billers getting more at least at VE). May not seem like a big difference for 1/2 years but starts to become huge as a mid level and senior.

That's generally true. Couple caveats, though: there are people at both TK and HB that get promoted a class year and receive the corresponding base salary increase even if they don't hit a full 2000 hours. That being said, there are also people who are well below those hours (especially in HB lit) who don't get bumped up. And I'm also aware of people at Akin and BB that didn't get bumped up (or were "held back") in part due to hours.

The difference in bonuses will definitely become more pronounced, though, as one becomes a more senior associate. I would suspect that at TK/HB, the bonus at 2000 hours in a corporate group will be about 75% of Cravath and then only full Cravath at 2300/2400 hours. I'd also add that the TK/HB comp model is likely higher than many firms in town (other than the ones mentioned above) - e.g., Jones Day, Fulbright and Hunton.

[Anonymous User]

Another thing to keep in mind is "all in" compensation. Both TK and HayBoo have tricked up compensation models. If you don't hit 2000 hours you don't get a bonus and you also don't move up a class year for base salary (with some weird catch up the next year if you do make hours). Also, I think you need to hit more than 2200+ to get NY bonus at each of these firms. As a junior you don't control your hours. So that makes it tough even if you want to hit 2000+.

That can turn into big a difference in compensation compared to VE (and Gibson Dunn/Sidley/BB/Akin). Especially if all you are trying to save money to leave Big Law. At these firms you move up class year regardless of hours for base salary. And you get NY bonus at 2000 hours (with high billers getting more at least at VE). May not seem like a big difference for 1/2 years but starts to become huge as a mid level and senior.

That's generally true. Couple caveats, though: there are people at both TK and HB that get promoted a class year and receive the corresponding base salary increase even if they don't hit a full 2000 hours. That being said, there are also people who are well below those hours (especially in HB lit) who don't get bumped up. And I'm also aware of people at Akin and BB that didn't get bumped up (or were "held back") in part due to hours.

The difference in bonuses will definitely become more pronounced, though, as one becomes a more senior associate. I would suspect that at TK/HB, the bonus at 2000 hours in a corporate group will be about 75% of Cravath and then only full Cravath at 2300/2400 hours. I'd also add that the TK/HB comp model is likely higher than many firms in town (other than the ones mentioned above) - e.g., Jones Day, Fulbright and Hunton.

All good info. Thank you both.

[Anonymous User]

And I'm also aware of people at Akin and BB that didn't get bumped up (or were "held back") in part due to hours.

At least at BB I think that was due to the weird "levels" system, but IIRC they've moved back to vanilla lockstep with the recent salary bump.

[Anonymous User]

Based on history, at V&E you will know what you are getting paid every year. You will get paid the same as a NYC associate. You have lock step salary bumps (in line with NYC) based on class year regardless of hours. If you hit 2K hours you will get NYC bonus. If you go beyond 2K hours will get some type of multiple of NYC bonus (I have heard up to 1.35x).

At TK and HayBoo you honestly have no idea. If you don't hit 2K hours you may or may not move up class year which impacts your salary. And you really have no clue what they will do on bonuses. If you look at ATL, end of year bonuses for TK and HayBoo are all over the map year by year and they are generally way below NYC market (especially for mid levels and seniors).

If you plan to leave in a couple years, go to V&E and get paid.