Magic Circle in the US Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone!

I'm from the UK with a few training contract offers (job offers) from a V5, V20 and a few Magic Circle firms.

After stumbling onto this forum and being sucked into a few threads, I get that there is a general impression that that the MC firms are ranked in this order:

?. slaughter and may (Unattainable)
1. Freshfields
2. Linklaters / Allen & Overy
3. clifford chance

This surprised me because I had the impression that clifford chance was doing the best in the US out of the Magic Circle firms (at least in the past 3-4 years). Furthermore, in the UK, Freshfields has culled a lot of its support staff and has upset many of the trainees and junior associates - but it seems they are held in very high regard (relative to the Magic Circle firms) in the US.

I was wondering how people came about with their impressions of the firms? It'd be interesting to hear!

I was also shocked at the hours that US lawyers seem to do. Most of the UK firms here have 1800 billable hour targets. The average day at a V5/10 US firm in the UK also usually starts at 9AM and ends at 10PM, and that is considered very, very bad.

I'd love to hear more about your thoughts and naturally you can ask me anything!

[IVChioco]

Eh, for what it's worth, I work in NYC and I hear more about Allen & Overy and Clifford Chance than the other ones you listed. They're all well-regarded, though.

[Anonymous User]

Hi everyone!

I'm from the UK with a few training contract offers (job offers) from a V5, V20 and a few Magic Circle firms.

After stumbling onto this forum and being sucked into a few threads, I get that there is a general impression that that the MC firms are ranked in this order:

?. Slaughter and May (Unattainable)
1. Freshfields
2. Linklaters / Allen & Overy
3. Clifford Chance

This surprised me because I had the impression that Clifford Chance was doing the best in the US out of the Magic Circle firms (at least in the past 3-4 years). Furthermore, in the UK, Freshfields has culled a lot of its support staff and has upset many of the trainees and junior associates - but it seems they are held in very high regard (relative to the Magic Circle firms) in the US.

I was wondering how people came about with their impressions of the firms? It'd be interesting to hear!

I was also shocked at the hours that US lawyers seem to do. Most of the UK firms here have 1800 billable hour targets. The average day at a V5/10 US firm in the UK also usually starts at 9AM and ends at 10PM, and that is considered very, very bad.

I'd love to hear more about your thoughts and naturally you can ask me anything!

RE the hours - you also get paid less than half what we do: slaughter and may NQ = £80K, Freshfields 85, etc.

RE the prestige: Magic circle firms are non-players in the NY market. Just not prestigious at all. Most of them are little more than satellite offices of the London HQ in that they just do the US work for their London-based clients. Obviously there are some exceptions (e.g. I know Clifford NY has many of its own clients alongside the London ones). The other issue, which doesn't really get touched on that much (no idea why) is that being a UK solicitor isn't that prestigious or impressive, say, in the same way being a barrister is. Whereas in the US, the three extra years it takes rather than the LLB / GDL route makes being a lawyer more impressive or something like that. As a result, the UK firms aren't held in that high regard. London offices of all the Magic Circle firms love having the US attorneys come to the office, whereas the UK lawyers aren't really helpful to their US counterparts.

Sorry for the rant, just as a general rule, Magic Circle is meaningless in the US.

[Anonymous User]

Clifford Chance has a beyond toxic work environment and serious morale issues.

[Anonymous User]

Clifford Chance has a beyond toxic work environment and serious morale issues.

Hello, could you elaborate on that? Was that from your personal experience or your friends'/family's? Was it anything recent? I visited the firm and spoke with some attorneys and my impression was the opposite but I obviously didn't see much.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW as a rising 2L at NYU/Columbia (i.e. currently deciding on firms), your original post gets the rough rankings right, as does the poster who notes that the UK firms aren't seen as serious players in NY. Freshfields is the only one which is even vaguely considered a decent outcome for a good student at a good school in NY, and there are easily 20 firms (and probably many more) in NY which are considered "better."

(To be clear practicing attorneys might have a different view - this is just the student perspective based on where my classmates seem to want to go.)

[Anonymous User]

I am a junior in a NY office of a magic circle in a corporate/finance practice. My group is all NY originating deals - meaning none of the work is supporting London or other offices. In my (biased) opinion, I would say reputationally from NY practitioners' perspectives the magic circle is of course below the V20 and NY headquartered super high profit firms (e.g. Milbank), but on par with non-NY centric national firms of similar or lower profitability with offices in NY/DC (O'Melveny, Akin, Mayer Brown, Orrick).

[Anonymous User]

I am a junior in a NY office of a magic circle in a corporate/finance practice. My group is all NY originating deals - meaning none of the work is supporting London or other offices. In my (biased) opinion, I would say reputationally from NY practitioners' perspectives the magic circle is of course below the V20 and NY headquartered super high profit firms (e.g. Milbank), but on par with non-NY centric national firms of similar or lower profitability with offices in NY/DC (O'Melveny, Akin, Mayer Brown, Orrick).

As a rising 3L at a T14, I second this view. I think the previous poster was overly harsh in saying that "Freshfields is the only [UK firm] which is even vaguely considered a decent outcome."

[Anonymous User]

OP Here. Thanks for the insight! I also understand that the Magic Circle firms are largely doing volume / mid-market work as they've found it difficult to break into the US market. Interestingly, I find more heads would turn if you said you were from the Magic Circle as opposed to a US / White Shoe / V10 firm since a lot of the US firms are less international and well known.

It's interesting to hear about the prestige bit of UK Lawyers. In EMEA and Asia, given how the common law is more prevalent (generally), I found that there was a general pigeon holing of US lawyers to focus mainly on capital markets (specifically high yield) work. Is the prestige therefore based largely on the reputation of the institutions you've studied in? I'm not sure how it translates into practical terms - I'm also not too knowledgeable about this but I generally found lateral movement as a English-trained lawyer easier when I was doing research.

Re clifford chance - is the work environment and moral issues still prevalent? In the UK they're lovely people and have one of, if not the nicest office.

Re Freshfields - Why are they held in such high regard? Their work is largely corporate and antitrust centric in the EMEA region. I can only imagine that their type of work doesn't translate too well across to the US market given that Private Equity work in the EMEA region tends to be more mid-cap. Similarly Antitrust work is largely a jurisdictional thing. Furthermore, I wonder if the decline of their UK practice has had any bearings on the US office.

Also, how is slaughter and may viewed? Is it perhaps held in higher regard just because they don't expose themselves to international judgment (as their strategy is UK-centric)

Are the rankings of the Magic Circle firms therefore largely based on historical reasons? I feel like ALL the MC firms tend to do the same quality of work in the US - which is not saying much about any of them.

If we looked at Vault rankings now, it would be:

1. clifford chance (35)
2. Linklaters (36)
3. Allen & Overy (46)
4. Freshfields (56)

Or perhaps is the perception of their prestige tied to whether their recruitment process is more elitist? I have heard Freshfields is the most elitist out of the MC firm when recruiting in the US.

Lastly, how does 'global' prestige play into people's decision to pick a firm? (If at all). I know firms like Skadden, Kirkland, White & Case, Latham & Watkins, MC firms, all regularly rank highly in mergermarket for deal value and volume. Does that come into play at all? Or does 'international work' not add any value?

[Anonymous User]

I am a junior in a NY office of a magic circle in a corporate/finance practice. My group is all NY originating deals - meaning none of the work is supporting London or other offices. In my (biased) opinion, I would say reputationally from NY practitioners' perspectives the magic circle is of course below the V20 and NY headquartered super high profit firms (e.g. Milbank), but on par with non-NY centric national firms of similar or lower profitability with offices in NY/DC (O'Melveny, Akin, Mayer Brown, Orrick).

As a rising 3L at a T14, I second this view. I think the previous poster was overly harsh in saying that "Freshfields is the only [UK firm] which is even vaguely considered a decent outcome."

that anon - you dropped my qualifier, I just meant decent outcome for someone who could otherwise get a V5/10 offer in NY (as I read OP to be saying s/he did, on second read not so sure). they're obviously all really good firms, but like the lawyer above says not many would pick them over Skadden etc.

[Anonymous User]

Clifford Chance has a beyond toxic work environment and serious morale issues.

Hello, could you elaborate on that? Was that from your personal experience or your friends'/family's? Was it anything recent? I visited the firm and spoke with some attorneys and my impression was the opposite but I obviously didn't see much.

From numerous sources. Stealth layoffs are incredibly frequent, cold offers for SAs I know a few of, this past summer a SA got no offered. Lots of backstabbing, talking shit behind peoples backs and overall very few people are happy while working there. It just has a feel of a sad place, other than the 5 or so people there that are good at wearing a smile.

[MagicCircleMage]

I am a junior in a NY office of a magic circle in a corporate/finance practice. My group is all NY originating deals - meaning none of the work is supporting London or other offices. In my (biased) opinion, I would say reputationally from NY practitioners' perspectives the magic circle is of course below the V20 and NY headquartered super high profit firms (e.g. Milbank), but on par with non-NY centric national firms of similar or lower profitability with offices in NY/DC (O'Melveny, Akin, Mayer Brown, Orrick).

As a rising 3L at a T14, I second this view. I think the previous poster was overly harsh in saying that "Freshfields is the only [UK firm] which is even vaguely considered a decent outcome."

that anon - you dropped my qualifier, I just meant decent outcome for someone who could otherwise get a V5/10 offer in NY (as I read OP to be saying s/he did, on second read not so sure). they're obviously all really good firms, but like the lawyer above says not many would pick them over Skadden etc.

As I said I am in the UK and therefore have offers from a V10 and V5 firm (in London) and the Magic Circle as well! Hope this clarifies.

[Anonymous User]

My perspective (from my OCI a few years back.)

I think your rankings are generally right. Freshfields is the most competitive of the bunch with regards to getting a position, but not sure if that has to do with the size of the summer class.

Most students didn't really view them as more than a NY Office to use kinda like a "safety" pick (if they had even heard of the firms), but there were some people who did specifically aim for these firms and turned down v10 offers to do so. They tended to be either international students (for a variety of reasons) or people really interested in work that has an international element, like FCPA work or international arbitration. The latter was particularly big, but if you are interested in international arbitration then your preference list for firms probably looks way different than average law students anyway.