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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The Dallas thread had a sort of general rundown of the bands or tiers of the Dallas firms, I'd love that for Houston if anyone is willing or just insight about the various Houston offices.

I have somewhere around 13 Houston CBs--Latham and Kirkland coming up next week, Morgan Lewis, Akin Gump, Bracewell, and some of the newer out of town firms that have set up shop. Have any of y'all gotten dings from anyone?
Here's a quick rundown for transactional-only in no particular order within tiers. Note that some of this is influenced by growth/perception of where the office is going (which is relevant to any incoming summer) as much as pure reputation with clients. I may also be forgetting some firms. Note that the gap between tier 1 and tier 2 is substantial.

Tier 1: KE, VE, Sidley, LW and maybe BB (trending down)

Tier 2: Maybe BB, maybe Sherman (uncertainty as to where it will end up), maybe GD (uncertainty as to where it will end up)

Tier 3: maybe Sherman, maybe GD, Akin, JD (has a reputation for being a weird place), maybe AK (trending down), STB (name prestige) and Skadden (name prestige)

Tier 4: maybe AK, Bracewell, JW, TK, MB, LL, maybe Porter Hedges (sort of in a different game).
Just my perspective. Largely agree with your ranking. I'll also note the gap from 1 to 2 is large, but from 2 to 3 is minimal.

Tier 1: VE (strongest), KE (rising), BB (slow bleed)

Tier 2: Sidley (rising), LW (loss of Wheeler is pretty big, but we will see)

Tier 3: Akin, AK (bleeding), Bracewell, Orrick (rising, taking the AK public finance group was a nice move), GD (rising), NRT (bleeding).

Tier 4: JW, Skadden, STB, TK, LL, Wilkie, Sherman.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The Dallas thread had a sort of general rundown of the bands or tiers of the Dallas firms, I'd love that for Houston if anyone is willing or just insight about the various Houston offices.

I have somewhere around 13 Houston CBs--Latham and Kirkland coming up next week, Morgan Lewis, Akin Gump, Bracewell, and some of the newer out of town firms that have set up shop. Have any of y'all gotten dings from anyone?
Here's a quick rundown for transactional-only in no particular order within tiers. Note that some of this is influenced by growth/perception of where the office is going (which is relevant to any incoming summer) as much as pure reputation with clients. I may also be forgetting some firms. Note that the gap between tier 1 and tier 2 is substantial.

Tier 1: KE, VE, Sidley, LW and maybe BB (trending down)

Tier 2: Maybe BB, maybe Sherman (uncertainty as to where it will end up), maybe GD (uncertainty as to where it will end up)

Tier 3: maybe Sherman, maybe GD, Akin, JD (has a reputation for being a weird place), maybe AK (trending down), STB (name prestige) and Skadden (name prestige)

Tier 4: maybe AK, Bracewell, JW, TK, MB, LL, maybe Porter Hedges (sort of in a different game).
Just my perspective. Largely agree with your ranking. I'll also note the gap from 1 to 2 is large, but from 2 to 3 is minimal.

Tier 1: VE (strongest), KE (rising), BB (slow bleed)

Tier 2: Sidley (rising), LW (loss of Wheeler is pretty big, but we will see)

Tier 3: Akin, AK (bleeding), Bracewell, Orrick (rising, taking the AK public finance group was a nice move), GD (rising), NRT (bleeding).

Tier 4: JW, Skadden, STB, TK, LL, Wilkie, Sherman.
BB is not where you think it is in my opinion. VE, KE, LW are def at the top and I would put Sidley in that “tier 1” group as well maybe (in order). GD, BB, STB, AK (b/c you can leverage it to lateral) are next. The rest of the tier 3 are prob right, but put Skadden in there (it’s still Skadden). The JW is cool, agreed, but it’s a hotel. Tier 4- I’d put K&S in there, drop down Norton Rose (which is a giant sweatshop), but has some sort of prestige I guess in TX and take out Sherman, Wil(l)kie and LL, unless you are considering a tier 5 or something.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Ultramar vistas » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:54 am

Sincere, but personal opinion: if you want the best possible start to a transactional career, with the best exit options down the line, you should accept offers from KE and VE first and foremost, with LW second to those two only because they just lost their managing partner to KE and it remains to be seen how they respond.

After that, whether you choose the satellite office of prestigious national firm (Gibson, Skadden, Sidley, etc) or a historic Texas firm (BB) should depend on what sort of career path you envision, what sort of resume you want to have, and what sort of connections you want to make.

If interested in Lit, I don’t know much, can’t help.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:03 am

Anyone else get weird vibes from V&E? Everyone talks up the culture like it's so great but that really wasn't my experience...

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else get weird vibes from V&E? Everyone talks up the culture like it's so great but that really wasn't my experience...
It varies a lot by group there. Some (M&A?) are very fratty and good old boyish (which is a good culture fit for some) whereas others (oil and gas?) are collegiate and professional (which is a good culture fit for others). The universal truth is that if you are very good, you will work hard no matter where you are as people will want you on their team.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:57 pm

Any thoughts on the general timing of when it is too late to receive a callback? If UT OCI was last week, should I just take the 3 callbacks I have and be happy, or can I (realistically) hold out hope for a few more?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any thoughts on the general timing of when it is too late to receive a callback? If UT OCI was last week, should I just take the 3 callbacks I have and be happy, or can I (realistically) hold out hope for a few more?
Unlikely you will pick up many more. With only 3, I would suggest trying to hustle for additional callbacks through mailing, networking, etc. while firms are still in hiring mode.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The Dallas thread had a sort of general rundown of the bands or tiers of the Dallas firms, I'd love that for Houston if anyone is willing or just insight about the various Houston offices.

I have somewhere around 13 Houston CBs--Latham and Kirkland coming up next week, Morgan Lewis, Akin Gump, Bracewell, and some of the newer out of town firms that have set up shop. Have any of y'all gotten dings from anyone?
Here's a quick rundown for transactional-only in no particular order within tiers. Note that some of this is influenced by growth/perception of where the office is going (which is relevant to any incoming summer) as much as pure reputation with clients. I may also be forgetting some firms. Note that the gap between tier 1 and tier 2 is substantial.

Tier 1: KE, VE, Sidley, LW and maybe BB (trending down)

Tier 2: Maybe BB, maybe Sherman (uncertainty as to where it will end up), maybe GD (uncertainty as to where it will end up)

Tier 3: maybe Sherman, maybe GD, Akin, JD (has a reputation for being a weird place), maybe AK (trending down), STB (name prestige) and Skadden (name prestige)

Tier 4: maybe AK, Bracewell, JW, TK, MB, LL, maybe Porter Hedges (sort of in a different game).
Just my perspective. Largely agree with your ranking. I'll also note the gap from 1 to 2 is large, but from 2 to 3 is minimal.

Tier 1: VE (strongest), KE (rising), BB (slow bleed)

Tier 2: Sidley (rising), LW (loss of Wheeler is pretty big, but we will see)

Tier 3: Akin, AK (bleeding), Bracewell, Orrick (rising, taking the AK public finance group was a nice move), GD (rising), NRT (bleeding).

Tier 4: JW, Skadden, STB, TK, LL, Wilkie, Sherman.
I would generally agree. Obviously, the type of work done at Skadden/STB will be different than TK/JW, but I use these bands to sort of rank how I would go about choosing where to work.

My only disagreements:
-I would knock BB down to Tier 2, and with Tier 2, I would order it LW, then BB, then Sidley (while still noting that BB seems to be on the decline and Sidley seems to be on the upswing)
-I would prob knock Orrick and NRF (at least for Corp work) down to Tier 4 (both are still good firms, but so are the rest of the Tier 4 firms)

Only firms I would avoid from a culture perspective are BB and STB.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:29 pm

A litigation breakdown in Houston is difficult, because so much of the lit work is now done by boutiques. Houston has more than its fair share of those. Susman is still king, but Gibbs & Bruns, Yetter Coleman, and AZA are right behind them. Susman and Yetter hire from law school, I don't know as much about the other two. Beck Redden is another good one, and Quinn and Hogan Lovells both have a presence in town.

Once upon a time the Texas Big Three (back when there was a Big Three) all had large litigation sections, with Fulbright considered to be the best in town. V&E seems to have cut their litigation department the most, but BB's has shrunk as well. Fublright has slipped as a firm, but their litigation section is still the largest of the three. Of the national firms, K&E's seems to be adding litigators, and they have a great reputation for litigation firm-wide, but I don't have any specific insight into the Houston office.

Overall, litigation is down a few rungs on the Houston Biglaw priority ladder. The fees are smaller, the conflicts are more abundant, and the high quality work gets siphoned off by the boutiques. I would recommend a boutique to anyone looking to litigate in Houston.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:33 pm

Unpopular opinion: TK and JW are not for everyone but goddamn the people there are great. Obviously cultural fit is very specific to the person looking, but they are all personable, nice, enjoyable. And they both pride themselves on work/life balance. Depending on your priorities, those firms may totally be worth it. I am heavily considering both. And although regional, they still do good, big, and important work.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Unpopular opinion: TK and JW are not for everyone but goddamn the people there are great. Obviously cultural fit is very specific to the person looking, but they are all personable, nice, enjoyable. And they both pride themselves on work/life balance. Depending on your priorities, those firms may totally be worth it. I am heavily considering both. And although regional, they still do good, big, and important work.
I'm not at either, but I would echo this. Some people consider it a trade off between $ and culture, because JW doesn't pay market after the first year or two (not sure that they made the jump to $190K either), but it seems like a fantastic place to practice law. I don't know as much about TK, but they do pay market and seem to be plenty busy.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by nealric » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:42 pm

Interesting reading this thread and reflecting on how much has changed in Houston over the past 10 years. Other than VE/BB, most of the firms mentioned didn't even factor in Houston then. It's an important reminder of how quickly the market can change.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:43 pm

nealric wrote:Interesting reading this thread and reflecting on how much has changed in Houston over the past 10 years. Other than VE/BB, most of the firms mentioned didn't even factor in Houston then. It's an important reminder of how quickly the market can change.
A simpler time when Andrews Kurth was a name that mattered.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:52 pm

Can someone elaborate on STB’s culture?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nealric wrote:Interesting reading this thread and reflecting on how much has changed in Houston over the past 10 years. Other than VE/BB, most of the firms mentioned didn't even factor in Houston then. It's an important reminder of how quickly the market can change.
A simpler time when Andrews Kurth was a name that mattered.
What’s crazy is that the name Andrews Kurth mattered even 2-3 years ago. Until it lost big chunks of people to Sidley and other national firms (which was only fairly recently), it’s transactiomal practice was among the very best in town.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Unpopular opinion: TK and JW are not for everyone but goddamn the people there are great. Obviously cultural fit is very specific to the person looking, but they are all personable, nice, enjoyable. And they both pride themselves on work/life balance. Depending on your priorities, those firms may totally be worth it. I am heavily considering both. And although regional, they still do good, big, and important work.
I'm not at either, but I would echo this. Some people consider it a trade off between $ and culture, because JW doesn't pay market after the first year or two (not sure that they made the jump to $190K either), but it seems like a fantastic place to practice law. I don't know as much about TK, but they do pay market and seem to be plenty busy.
Also not at either and would also echo this. JW seems to be more lit/RE heavy and TK seems to be more Corp/O&G heavy, but both are strong firms. And confirmed that TK at least pays market through the 8th year (who knows if bonuses will be market though). I would also add that while the "top" firms in Houston clearly wouldn't consider JW or TK to be their true peer, they certainly view them as enough of a peer to regularly hire or try to hire their lawyers. I know of multiple TK/JW people who have gone to VE/Sidley/Shearman in the last couple years, and I know of multiple people who have gone from VE/BB/Locke to TK/JW. Will KE or Latham carry you farther should you choose to leave Texas and will VE open more in-house doors? 100%. But for someone who wants to stay in Houston indefinitely, choosing TK/JW over other firms could very well be the right choice for that person.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:16 pm

I'd avoid JW unless it's your only choice. Fantastic culture but terrible job prospects. Plenty of 1L and 2L SAs this year and last who got no-offered simply because the firm has no money left. (FYI I was not one of them but have several friends who are/were.)

@UT person above: 3 callbacks is decent at this point but better is clearly more. No need to panic though. With the exception of V&E, nearly all firms do multiple waves. Some of the big name firms last year issued CBs to UT folks *4 weeks after OCI* and hired those folks. Don't forget that many firms with big 1L summer classes need to (re-)assess the number of returns before doing next waves of CB invites, and others will extend more CB offers as first wave declines come in. You obviously can't bank on any of that but it's definitely not as bleak as above poster suggested.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can someone elaborate on STB’s culture?
Also curious about STB Houston's culture...

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:14 pm

I work or have worked in the STB Houston office.

I didn't see any culture problems. Someone would need to elaborate to a specific 'problem' to get a more specific response. Hours are reasonable for big law and people treat you with respect. I picked this office over VE and others and I think that is typical. I would repeat my choice to have started here, the attorneys who have left don't give any appearance of having struggled to find a plethora of different jobs.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Sidley Houston v. K&E Houston. Pros and cons of each?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:44 pm

Any rough estimate on what percentage of callbacks tend to turn into offers for Houston, or is this a firm by firm metric?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:57 pm

Any Susman movement?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:39 pm

with LW second to those two only because they just lost their managing partner to KE and it remains to be seen how they respond.
Not the managing partner...

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'd avoid JW unless it's your only choice. Fantastic culture but terrible job prospects. Plenty of 1L and 2L SAs this year and last who got no-offered simply because the firm has no money left. (FYI I was not one of them but have several friends who are/were.)
not going to comment on the culture - that's obviously way too subjective. However, agree with regards to the job prospects. I also know a few people who were burned by JW in previous years. If you're looking to guarantee a return offer, JW isn't the way to go.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:Sidley Houston v. K&E Houston. Pros and cons of each?
Both are great offices. I think Sidley is up and coming whereas K&E has already arrived at the top of tier 1 in Houston. Sidley is going to be company-side work whereas K&E will be a PE-heavy mix (with the opportunity to do company-side as well). It isn't clear how Sidley would weather a downturn (which will come eventually). Think the culture/feel of the two offices is quite different and I would probably decide between those two based on the cultural fit/where you feel most comfortable provided that if they both feel like a good fit that I would take K&E.

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