Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers Forum

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those fortunate enough to be picking between LW/VE/KE, how are you y'all making your choice?

Office( KE is spectacular), personalities encountered( who i meshed with best at both the partner and associate level), practice groups available ( VE has greatest variety), exit opps( KE or LW have better portability outside Texas while VE probably has the TX ole boy network down pat).

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:36 am

Pretty fair description. If you think you may want to do Capital Markets consider VE/KE/LW. If are sure (btw not sure how you can be sure) you only want to do M&A then stick to VE/KE. Exit opps best at VE/KE. VE marginally better for in-house because they have the good ole boy network versus likely PE portfolio company placements at KE. KE definitely better for moves to another firm. Very easy to lateral as a junior/mid from KE, and probably VE, to pretty much any other firm in town including LW, GDC, Sidley, STB, BB. If you think the cultural fit at LW is best then it is definitely not a bad choice. Wheeler will be a huge loss, but they still have very strong Capital Markets partners. VE/KE/LW clearly the gold standard and less risky than the smaller offices of other national firms. Skadden, STB, Wilkie all stagnant. BB and Sidley best of the rest.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:12 am

Do y'all think offer rates is something that we should be more worried about at VE versus KE/LW? Noticed that they no offered two people in 2017.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:Do y'all think offer rates is something that we should be more worried about at VE versus KE/LW? Noticed that they no offered two people in 2017.
No. I really don’t understand why summer associates harp on offer rates so much. Obviously if a firm has a 75% offer rate, that should cause some concern. But when a firm like VE no offers two people, then that means they deserved the no offer. And, trust me, as someone who has clerked several places, the last thing you want is to have a disaster summer associate get an offer just because the firm is afraid to no offer people - that person will be your future coworker.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do y'all think offer rates is something that we should be more worried about at VE versus KE/LW? Noticed that they no offered two people in 2017.
No. I really don’t understand why summer associates harp on offer rates so much. Obviously if a firm has a 75% offer rate, that should cause some concern. But when a firm like VE no offers two people, then that means they deserved the no offer. And, trust me, as someone who has clerked several places, the last thing you want is to have a disaster summer associate get an offer just because the firm is afraid to no offer people - that person will be your future coworker.
Yeah, agreed. When you are an associate you will look at the summer class and wish that 100% wasn’t so important, because out of every 30 summers there’s always 1 or 2 who reveal themselves to be either socially completely incompatible with a modern workplace or completely incompetent/lazy, or some combination of all 3. No screener/callback process is perfect, but the summer experience tells a lot more.

Unless you think you are that person, 97% should feel like 100%, because 100% of normal humans get offers.

Last thing - don’t think that firms with 100% don’t cold offer instead, because they absolutely do. Sure, that’s better than a no offer, but they’ll still find a way to get rid of the people they found intolerable.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:Very easy to lateral as a junior/mid from KE, and probably VE, to pretty much any other firm in town including LW, GDC, Sidley, STB, BB.
Emphasis added. I can definitely see BB and STB, likely LW. But why is it very easy re: GDC when GDC only accepted a single K&E lateral (from a top school as well) so far?
You have some background info that the rest of us don't?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Very easy to lateral as a junior/mid from KE, and probably VE, to pretty much any other firm in town including LW, GDC, Sidley, STB, BB.
Emphasis added. I can definitely see BB and STB, likely LW. But why is it very easy re: GDC when GDC only accepted a single K&E lateral (from a top school as well) so far?
You have some background info that the rest of us don't?
Same with STB. The only 2 people to lateral from K&E to STB were at STB at some point beforehand. They both were at K&E for less than 2-3 months before coming back to STB (returned bonuses to K&E and everything - one was even a NSP). There otherwise have been no K&E laterals to STB.

I could see us hiring a lateral from V&E though. K&E much less likely.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:14 pm

Is picking Sidley over VE/KE defensible? I like the cultural fit plus it looks like they're strong in projects which interests me more than other practice areas.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is picking Sidley over VE/KE defensible? I like the cultural fit plus it looks like they're strong in projects which interests me more than other practice areas.
If the interest is based off 1 year of law school experience? No. If you have LW, I found their culture to be very similar to Sidley. Otherwise, BB/Sidley are still strong enough that it's not unreasonable to pick them if you think you'll last longer there.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:05 pm

For those that questioned the lateral prospects from VE/KE please don’t let this descend into another KE discussion, pro or negative. I am not posting from KE. Simply trying to give students one associate’s perception of the market. I know at our firm (suspect you can guess which it is) we are constantly getting headhunter calls on behalf of the firms above. My friends at KE tell me they get the same calls on a very regular basis. Those headhunters may all be calling on behalf of those firms on an unauthorized basis, but the calls are coming in to us whatever the explanation. No disrespect is intended to those smaller firms and no need to attack every view that is expressed. The post was simply a summary on how to choose between LW/VE/KE based on one, hopefully well regarded, associate’s experience right now. Feel free to disregard if you disagree with it.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:34 pm

Very easy to lateral as a junior/mid from KE, and probably VE, to pretty much any other firm in town including LW, GDC, Sidley, STB, BB.
Emphasis added. I can definitely see BB and STB, likely LW. But why is it very easy re: GDC when GDC only accepted a single K&E lateral (from a top school as well) so far?
You have some background info that the rest of us don't?
Same with STB. The only 2 people to lateral from K&E to STB were at STB at some point beforehand. They both were at K&E for less than 2-3 months before coming back to STB (returned bonuses to K&E and everything - one was even a NSP). There otherwise have been no K&E laterals to STB.
I could see us hiring a lateral from V&E though. K&E much less likely.
Thanks for the feedback. Not doubting that lateral prospects at LW/VE/KE are very strong. Just imagine there are significant hurdles beyond the cold call to land the actual job. Just like having 20-40 OCI interview slots for LW/VE/KE at your school does not make it very easy to land a SA at any of them.

As to the two STB people who lateraled back: what were their reasons?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:59 pm

I've seen some posts alluding to the size of the offices in Houston. Is Sidley really that much smaller than LW? Sidley has around 75 attorneys, and LW has around 80.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:08 pm

Know the NSP that lateralled back. Don’t know the associate. The post is misleading. The NSP was actually in-house when he joined KE. Was at STB earlier in his career. When STB found out that he had left in-house to join KE they offered him a counsel spot and guaranteed equity in the future if he gave up his non-equity at KE. Don’t know the associate, but sure you could find out his or her name by asking around.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is picking Sidley over VE/KE defensible? I like the cultural fit plus it looks like they're strong in projects which interests me more than other practice areas.
If the interest is based off 1 year of law school experience? No. If you have LW, I found their culture to be very similar to Sidley. Otherwise, BB/Sidley are still strong enough that it's not unreasonable to pick them if you think you'll last longer there.
Defensible, especially since you're interested in project work. Cultural fit is important vis a vis KE, and there are legacy TX / national firm considerations with VE as well.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Know the NSP that lateralled back. Don’t know the associate. The post is misleading. The NSP was actually in-house when he joined KE in January 2018. Was at STB earlier in his career. When STB found out that he had left in-house to join KE they offered him a counsel spot and guaranteed equity in the future if he gave up his non-equity at KE. Don’t know the associate, but sure you could find out his or her name by asking around.
The NSP who came back to STB left STB January 2017 for an in house position. He was brought back to STB as a counsel 2.5-3 months after he joined as nonequity at KE (January 2018) after STB found out he was no longer in-house. My understanding is that he was not guaranteed anything at STB, as another associate was promoted to counsel at the same time he was. I think it is unlikely that they both make partner but one of them probably will get it (if not this year, next year).

On the associate, he lateraled with another associate from STB to KE in January 2018. He didn’t have anything bad to say about KE but came back (March 2018) because he preferred it here. No guarantees or bonuses to come back, he returned his signing bonus to KE.

On the KE/VE/Sidley spectrum, I personally would take KE/VE over Sidley as I think the exit options would be better at KE/VE. If you felt you had a good fit with KE/VE, you may want to weigh the better exit options against the possibly better fit at Sidley. Maybe go on a second look at each?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Know the NSP that lateralled back. Don’t know the associate. The post is misleading. The NSP was actually in-house when he joined KE in January 2018. Was at STB earlier in his career. When STB found out that he had left in-house to join KE they offered him a counsel spot and guaranteed equity in the future if he gave up his non-equity at KE. Don’t know the associate, but sure you could find out his or her name by asking around.
The NSP who came back to STB left STB January 2017 for an in house position. He was brought back to STB as a counsel 2.5-3 months after he joined as nonequity at KE (January 2018) after STB found out he was no longer in-house. My understanding is that he was not guaranteed anything at STB, as another associate was promoted to counsel at the same time he was. I think it is unlikely that they both make partner but one of them probably will get it (if not this year, next year).

On the associate, he lateraled with another associate from STB to KE in January 2018. He didn’t have anything bad to say about KE but came back (March 2018) because he preferred it here. No guarantees or bonuses to come back, he returned his signing bonus to KE.

On the KE/VE/Sidley spectrum, I personally would take KE/VE over Sidley as I think the exit options would be better at KE/VE. If you felt you had a good fit with KE/VE, you may want to weigh the better exit options against the possibly better fit at Sidley. Maybe go on a second look at each?
What makes STB a better place for some people, if okay to discuss?

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:42 pm

All accurate. Would add that the senior associate that convinced the younger associate to lateral decided to join the new project finance group in DC so moved to our DC office in February. Don’t think the younger associate felt it was the same deal after that. More broadly, reading this string for the first time is pretty amusing. Would be surprised if many of the STB comments apparently attributed to KE are actually from anyone at KE. There are a few folks (9 or 10) that have moved from STB to KE in the office, mainly because our managing partner came from there, but otherwise we don’t see them much and certainly not aware of bad blood on the KE side. My sense has always been that some of the more senior folks at STB have a chip on their shoulder about KE and how successful it has become, but have never heard anything to make me think the feeling is mutual. STB is just too small to really register on the KE radar screen. We see VE and Latham most on the M&A side, and increasingly GDC and Sidley. STB doesn’t have a Capital Markets or litigation partner so we rarely come across them.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:All accurate. Would add that the senior associate that convinced the younger associate to lateral decided to join the new project finance group in DC so moved to our DC office in February. Don’t think the younger associate felt it was the same deal after that. More broadly, reading this string for the first time is pretty amusing. Would be surprised if many of the STB comments apparently attributed to KE are actually from anyone at KE. There are a few folks (9 or 10) that have moved from STB to KE in the office, mainly because our managing partner came from there, but otherwise we don’t see them much and certainly not aware of bad blood on the KE side. My sense has always been that some of the more senior folks at STB have a chip on their shoulder about KE and how successful it has become, but have never heard anything to make me think the feeling is mutual. STB is just too small to really register on the KE radar screen. We see VE and Latham most on the M&A side, and increasingly GDC and Sidley. STB doesn’t have a Capital Markets or litigation partner so we rarely come across them.
I don’t think there is really any bad blood toward KE among the mid/junior people at STB either. I also don’t think it’s a jealousy thing regarding how successful KE has become (it did so largely on its bankruptcy practice which we don’t have). I think it’s more just the circumstance of how KE opened set STB back and STB had to redo its growth model (since a bunch of people went to KE when it opened).

I’ll also note that while STB is very involved in the energy/infra space, we are normally finding ourselves across from other V10 firms given the clients and types of deals. For instance, I’ve worked across from Skadden, SullCrom and DPW a bunch but have never worked across from BB. We recently started to do oil and gas “A&D” with the hire of a guy from Marathon March 2017, we have a private funds practice as of July 2017 and a capital markets practice as of June 2018 (the senior associate who came down from NY heading up the practice is all but a shoe-in to make partner this year or next year).

As to what may make people prefer STB over another firm? I think part of it is the start-up vibe. We’re definitely still in the growth/ramp up stage size wise (as compared to KE which likely is entering a maintenance or slower growth phase and VE/BB which are more maintaining size now). We actually have outgrown our one floor in the Chase Tower and are expanding to the floor beneath us (expansion to be built out and ready in 2019)

The people in the office get along really well and actually care about each other and look out for one other (for example, everyone generally knows the names of the attorneys’ spouses and kids and have also likely met them at firm events). Most people in the office are married/have long-term SOs so most go home around dinner and log back in from home (e.g., low amounts of face time outside of business hours so long as you are available). The clients we work for are also pretty great. That along with fringe perks (like coverage on vacations which is rare in biglaw, endless supplies of lacroix and snacks and weekly in-office happy hours) add to the great work environment.

Obviously there’s a risk in that the office has been small and only now starting to grow a bit more quickly, but that also has rewards (getting in earlier can be a good thing in such a scenario). STB firmwide is very picky about who gets promoted to partner (mostly because of the stellar pension plans, the high PPP and the job security), and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the result is a longer partnership track of 9-12 years (check recent partner notices and you can see how long people were with the firm before getting promoted and which were counsel/sr counsel first). The attorney numbers (if attrition remains similar to past years) should be around 40-45 by the end of the year and 50-55 by the end of 2019 (if not more). By the end of 2019, I’d also anticipate there to be around 7-8 partners total.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:42 pm

Sounds like a fun place to work. And nothing wrong with being in a small office of a national firm hoping to expand this year or next. FWIW have never heard the former STB guys that started KE criticizing their former firm. General vibe is that STB is a fine firm with good lawyers. We just don’t see them very often. Sounds like that may change some day soon.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:26 pm

.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:31 pm

Interviewee with STB Houston here. They have leased another floor downstairs already for the upcoming expansion.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:.
In response to what you posted before you deleted it, 1 attorney came from our LA office but is still listed on the firm website under LA and not Houston. One attorney is coming down from NY in September and another is potentially coming down (95% certain but needs to work out the move), so that makes 36. We have 5 associates starting this fall from last year’s summer program and possibly a few more laterals which puts us in the 40-45 range by year end. Maybe 1-2 leave in January but I don’t see more than that leaving. Add in 8-10 associates starting September 2019 and a few more laterals during 2019 and you’re up to 50-55ish associates by end of 2019.

On a profits per attorney basis, STB Houston is Simpson’s most profitable office. It won’t be going anywhere anytime soon and the firm is focused on growing it properly and in line with how other offices grew (e.g., Palo Alto and DC).

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:44 pm

Sorry, thought I had offended you and you weren’t going to answer. Are you going to add a tax group, or are there tax lawyers already in the office? Everyone keeps referring to leasing an additional floor in your building as as somehow important to prove the growth is going to happen. How many lawyers can you fit on your current floor? Had heard that VE is going to put 300+ on 6.5 floors of their new building.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry, thought I had offended you and you weren’t going to answer. Are you going to add a tax group, or are there tax lawyers already in the office? Everyone keeps referring to leasing an additional floor in your building as as somehow important to prove the growth is going to happen. How many lawyers can you fit on your current floor? Had heard that VE is going to put 300+ on 6.5 floors of their new building.
There is no intention of having any specialty groups in the office since we can leverage our tax, exec comp, environmental, real estate, etc. specialists up in NY. No sense reinventing the wheel. Current floor I think it’s 25(?) external associate offices (one currently occupied by our landman, one by the office manager and one unoccupied), 9 internal associate offices (2 for admin/billing, the rest currently all unoccupied with 4 set up as double offices from our summer class - incoming juniors will go there and 2 as single offices), 8 partner offices and 2 counsel offices (all occupied by partners/counsel). Incoming juniors and any laterals will be moved to external offices on the new floor as soon as possible and I’m sure some office shuffling will happen. We are currently fitting 35 attorneys and will be able to fit our incoming fall associate class as well. If we have more than 5 laterals before the new floor opens (unless we double them up) or if the new floor doesn’t open in time for our next summer class, then we might run out of space - not sure what the plan is then but may mean doubling up laterals or shuffling support staff around).

New floor will have 30 associate offices and 6 partner offices. There are 11 internal offices but I’m assuming those will be for support staff. If you do a callback, they have a floor plan of the expansion in our reception area.

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Re: Houston OCI, Callbacks, Offers

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:52 pm

Dude, pretty sure you are being trolled by someone from V&E. Don’t think anyone cares that your office administrator has an external office, or that you have signed up for a second floor in the chase tower. It’s not exactly compelling evidence that you are going to get above 35 lawyers after 7 years. LOL!

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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