2018 Dallas Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone shed some light on the new Katten office in Dallas?

Only really worth going to if you want white-collar and don’t have offers from any other firms with that practice area.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have more specific insights about Sidley-Dallas for litigation? The OP listed them as being at the top of the market, but Chambers has them below band 4 for general commercial litigation in Texas. Not sure if Chambers is accurate at all here. Any insights about culture would be helpful too.

Sidley Lit culture is rough. When they all left Weil, NINE Lit associates chose to stay behind with the one remaining Lit partner. Sidley Corp is better from a work perspective. No more or less sophisticated than the other top shops in town (from GDC and VE to BB and TK).

[Anonymous User]

Would you be willing to share some details about what specifically makes the culture so rough?

[Anonymous User]

Would you be willing to share some details about what specifically makes the culture so rough?

Just the fact that the hours are miserable and the partners are generally unpleasant.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have more specific insights about Sidley-Dallas for litigation? The OP listed them as being at the top of the market, but Chambers has them below band 4 for general commercial litigation in Texas. Not sure if Chambers is accurate at all here. Any insights about culture would be helpful too.

OP’s rankings are more accurate than Chambers in this case. No way that JW, TK, NRF, etc. are above Sidley lit in Dallas.

Thoughts on Sidley vs Jones Day for lit?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have more specific insights about Sidley-Dallas for litigation? The OP listed them as being at the top of the market, but Chambers has them below band 4 for general commercial litigation in Texas. Not sure if Chambers is accurate at all here. Any insights about culture would be helpful too.

OP’s rankings are more accurate than Chambers in this case. No way that JW, TK, NRF, etc. are above Sidley lit in Dallas.

Thoughts on Sidley vs Jones Day for lit?

Do you have other options? If not, I’d go Sidley. Culture may be rough, but I suspect you’ll get way better experience than at JD

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have more specific insights about Sidley-Dallas for litigation? The OP listed them as being at the top of the market, but Chambers has them below band 4 for general commercial litigation in Texas. Not sure if Chambers is accurate at all here. Any insights about culture would be helpful too.

OP’s rankings are more accurate than Chambers in this case. No way that JW, TK, NRF, etc. are above Sidley lit in Dallas.

Thoughts on Sidley vs Jones Day for lit?

Do you have other options? If not, I’d go Sidley. Culture may be rough, but I suspect you’ll get way better experience than at JD

Agreed. JD’s compensation scheme sucks, and that’s enough to give Sidley the win in a direct comparison in my opinion.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have more specific insights about Sidley-Dallas for litigation? The OP listed them as being at the top of the market, but Chambers has them below band 4 for general commercial litigation in Texas. Not sure if Chambers is accurate at all here. Any insights about culture would be helpful too.

OP’s rankings are more accurate than Chambers in this case. No way that JW, TK, NRF, etc. are above Sidley lit in Dallas.

Thoughts on Sidley vs Jones Day for lit?

Do you have other options? If not, I’d go Sidley. Culture may be rough, but I suspect you’ll get way better experience than at JD

Agreed. JD’s compensation scheme sucks, and that’s enough to give Sidley the win in a direct comparison in my opinion.

Im the person you’re quoting. And totally agree re compensation - JD prob would be my tenth choice in dallas if I had offers everywhere (and perhaps not even that high).

[Anonymous User]

How about Sidley vs McKool?

[Anonymous User]

How about Sidley vs McKool?

McKool. And it's not particularly close. McKool is arguably the best lit shop in Dallas, and it's Texas Chambers Band 1 for litigation. Sidley is outside of Band 4 for general commercial lit. From an experience standpoint, I understand McKool pushes young associates to get substantive experience (depos, dispositive briefing, oral advocacy). I imagine that's less common at Sidley. I'd bet you'd bill a bit more at McKool, but that's not to say Sidley is a lifestyle firm.

[boysbearswolves]

Can anyone shed some light on the new Katten office in Dallas?

Only really worth going to if you want white-collar and don’t have offers from any other firms with that practice area.

Interesting. I heard that they poached some corporate partners from Hunton Andrews Kurth. I haven't heard anything about their white-collar practice. Does anyone have insights on the corporate practice?

[Anonymous User]

How about Sidley vs McKool?

Not even a question. McKool and don't look back.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone shed some light on the new Katten office in Dallas?

Only really worth going to if you want white-collar and don’t have offers from any other firms with that practice area.

Interesting. I heard that they poached some corporate partners from Hunton Andrews Kurth. I haven't heard anything about their white-collar practice. Does anyone have insights on the corporate practice?

What are your other offers?

[boysbearswolves]

Can anyone shed some light on the new Katten office in Dallas?

Only really worth going to if you want white-collar and don’t have offers from any other firms with that practice area.

Interesting. I heard that they poached some corporate partners from Hunton Andrews Kurth. I haven't heard anything about their white-collar practice. Does anyone have insights on the corporate practice?

What are your other offers?

Mostly V50 NY firms.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

100% Gibson imo. For these two reasons:

-McKool culture is terrible (Ginson’s is not)
-GDC has more types of work (including appellate work and a corporate group, which I would encourage you to try during the summer - the corporate lawyers I know are more satisfied with their careers than the litigators I know and the partnership prospects, lateral options, in-house options and overall comp is generally better)

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

100% Gibson imo. For these two reasons:

-McKool culture is terrible (Ginson’s is not)
-GDC has more types of work (including appellate work and a corporate group, which I would encourage you to try during the summer - the corporate lawyers I know are more satisfied with their careers than the litigators I know and the partnership prospects, lateral options, in-house options and overall comp is generally better)

Is the bolded part referring to corp vs lit or GDC vs McKool?

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

100% Gibson imo. For these two reasons:

-McKool culture is terrible (Ginson’s is not)
-GDC has more types of work (including appellate work and a corporate group, which I would encourage you to try during the summer - the corporate lawyers I know are more satisfied with their careers than the litigators I know and the partnership prospects, lateral options, in-house options and overall comp is generally better)

Is the bolded part referring to corp vs lit or GDC vs McKool?

Corp v lit. Lateral options (in Dallas) from all big firms are roughly equivalent imo once you account for practice group (if you plan to move to the coast, I think it changes slightly but still not that much). A litigator at McKool and a litigator at HB looking to go in house after four years are very likely to end up at the same place doing the same thing.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

100% Gibson imo. For these two reasons:

-McKool culture is terrible (Ginson’s is not)
-GDC has more types of work (including appellate work and a corporate group, which I would encourage you to try during the summer - the corporate lawyers I know are more satisfied with their careers than the litigators I know and the partnership prospects, lateral options, in-house options and overall comp is generally better)

Is the bolded part referring to corp vs lit or GDC vs McKool?

Corp v lit. Lateral options (in Dallas) from all big firms are roughly equivalent imo once you account for practice group (if you plan to move to the coast, I think it changes slightly but still not that much). A litigator at McKool and a litigator at HB looking to go in house after four years are very likely to end up at the same place doing the same thing.

I imagine things are different for non-in house options given McKool's trial-oriented practice? Wouldn't coming out of McKool be better if you're trying to go AUSA or if you want to lateral to another boutique (versus a HB)?

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on McKool vs Gibson?

100% Gibson imo. For these two reasons:

-McKool culture is terrible (Ginson’s is not)
-GDC has more types of work (including appellate work and a corporate group, which I would encourage you to try during the summer - the corporate lawyers I know are more satisfied with their careers than the litigators I know and the partnership prospects, lateral options, in-house options and overall comp is generally better)

Is the bolded part referring to corp vs lit or GDC vs McKool?

Corp v lit. Lateral options (in Dallas) from all big firms are roughly equivalent imo once you account for practice group (if you plan to move to the coast, I think it changes slightly but still not that much). A litigator at McKool and a litigator at HB looking to go in house after four years are very likely to end up at the same place doing the same thing.

I imagine things are different for non-in house options given McKool's trial-oriented practice? Wouldn't coming out of McKool be better if you're trying to go AUSA or if you want to lateral to another boutique (versus a HB)?

Speaking as a transactional attorney, I'm not 100% sure. I doubt it makes much of a difference for boutiques - I know plenty of HB, BB, JD, VE, etc lawyers that all went to similar boutiques - maybe McKool is the exception? But there just aren't that many boutiques in Dallas. With AUSA, mayyyyybe there's an edge for McKool, but I doubt it, and certainly not when compared against a GDC candidate. At the end of the day, unless you get off on the idea of working 2500+ hours a year and being gone for weeks at a time, I would avoid McKool.

[Anonymous User]

To summarize the consensus in this thread, seems like for Dallas lit:

GDC > McKool if you really want trial experience (but rough culture and hours), VE, Winston > Sidley (good work but bad culture) > Jones Day (weird compensation and bad culture), Baker Botts, NRF-type places > everywhere else

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have insight on Hunton AK Dallas? In terms of work/life balance, respect in dallas, type of work, etc. Looking at transactional work.

[Anonymous User]

To summarize the consensus in this thread, seems like for Dallas lit:

GDC > McKool if you really want trial experience (but rough culture and hours), VE, Winston > Sidley (good work but bad culture) > Jones Day (weird compensation and bad culture), Baker Botts, NRF-type places > everywhere else

I would include TK, HB and LL in the JD/BB/NRF tier. And would prob pick TK or LL for Lit over the other firms in your list other than GDC and Winston for culture reasons (only reason I wouldn’t pick HB is because their lit group is notoriously slow). Wouldn’t want to work at VE, BB, JD, Akin or Sidley personally.

[Anonymous User]

mckool smith associate here to set the record straight on a few issues. Also, I'm happy to answer questions.

Hours. There is no hours requirement. On average (I've seen the numbers), McKool associates bill 170-180 per month. That's around 2100 hours per year. The 2400 hours mark that is thrown around is a throwback to an outdated benchmark from years ago. Some associates still target that number for whatever reason. The quality of your work is vastly more important than the quantity. That said, the Dallas office has been slammed with huge cases this year, which has caused the associates to be busier this year than last. Since the firm has had several trials this year, many associates' hours have jumped. Naturally, you will be busy in the months leading up to and including trial. After trial finishes, you are strongly encouraged to take time off, so you don't burn out.

Culture. I don't know what is leading to the perception that the culture is "terrible." That's just inaccurate. You have a tremendous amount of autonomy with respect to the cases you work on, the partners you work with, and your work schedule. There are no practice groups or rigid case assignment procedures. Associates are encouraged to build relationships with partners they click with. If I don't enjoy a particular client/partner/practice area, once the matter wraps up I will jump on a different case that is a better fit. No hard feelings. I've never been yelled at, and generally enjoy everyone I work with. That said, the trial-oriented nature of the firm means that you are given a substantive role in cases and expected to do your part. Generally, associates relish the opportunity to take on these roles. Contrary to perception, the firm is not chalk-full of type-A jerks. We like A-players, not A-holes.

Experience. I think you'd be hard pressed to find another major firm in Dallas that affords young associates opportunities more substantive experience. Junior/midlevel associates regularly take depositions, argue in court, interface with the client, handle experts, draft dispositive motions, participate in case strategy, and take witnesses at trial. Senior associates are expected to run the day-to-day on cases. Last month a Dallas senior associate delivered a closing argument in California federal court that resulted in a nine-figure verdict. The list of firms that would happen at is short. The quality of the experience, though generally very good, is also dependent on your ambition to take on challenges and the good fortune to get on cases that end up proceeding to jury trial.

Exit options. This is a little hard to gauge, since the firm is not huge and doesn't have high turnover. The last associate to leave became an AUSA. By the time she left, she had a substantial track record as a stand-up trial lawyer that would be on par with many partners at national firms. Several other lawyers who have left over the years have gone to other litigation boutiques. Of course, there are always big firm lateral options, too. While there are certainly opportunities to go in house, most of the associates view themselves as developing trial lawyers who prefer to be in a firm/government role.

[Anonymous User]

To summarize the consensus in this thread, seems like for Dallas lit:

GDC > McKool if you really want trial experience (but rough culture and hours), VE, Winston > Sidley (good work but bad culture) > Jones Day (weird compensation and bad culture), Baker Botts, NRF-type places > everywhere else

I would include TK, HB and LL in the JD/BB/NRF tier. And would prob pick TK or LL for Lit over the other firms in your list other than GDC and Winston for culture reasons (only reason I wouldn’t pick HB is because their lit group is notoriously slow). Wouldn’t want to work at VE, BB, JD, Akin or Sidley personally.

I hear LL has a really rough culture. Just word of mouth from some associates and a good friend who summered there.