Top Law Schools

Doesn't OCS have the #s by grades, I feel like someone posted something like that in prior year thread

Anonymous User wrote:Does a guy really need more than one suit? I can get a another but would prefer to stick to my one suit to save money.

Bumping this. I'd prefer not to spend $$$ on a second suit, but is it common practice/necessary to have more than one suit for EIP?

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Does a guy really need more than one suit? I can get a another but would prefer to stick to my one suit to save money.

Bumping this. I'd prefer not to spend $$$ on a second suit, but is it common practice/necessary to have more than one suit for EIP?

You'll possibly need a second suit for your firm, and depending on how many consecutive days of interviews you have, your one suit will probably start looking a bit tired and wrinkled by day 3. Also - nervous people sweat a particularly smelly sweat. It's distinctive. Finally, you may well get invites to go get drinks/dinner/network with law firms in the evening. You do not want to turn up the next morning smelling like the night before.

If money is really a big issue - and I know it is for many - just make sure to take your suit off at the end of the evening and hang it on a broad shouldered hanger in a nice airy place. In the morning, when you take your shower, get the bathroom nice and steamy and hang your suit up for 10-15 minutes. Should take some of the aggressive wrinkles out.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Does a guy really need more than one suit? I can get a another but would prefer to stick to my one suit to save money.

Bumping this. I'd prefer not to spend $$$ on a second suit, but is it common practice/necessary to have more than one suit for EIP?

You'll be fine with one. If you want to look sharp and not smell without having to take the suit to the drycleaners when you wear it, just get a handheld steamer and hit your suit with it each evening. All the wrinkles will come out and the steam will get almost every smell out.

You need multiple shirts, but not suits

Anonymous User wrote:Here's some quick EIP tips from someone who graduated comparatively recently. Since I relied on this board a lot when I was prepping for EIP I thought I'd pay it forward.

[li
[*]Don't waste bids in DC if you have fewer than 4Hs, unless you have something going for you that would make up for average-ish grades in other contexts (patent bar eligibility, super-duper softs, URM status, etc.).

This advice seems too risk-averse. Sure, maybe don't go all in on DC if you are feeling nervous about your grades. But insinuating that you can't bid DC at all from HLS if you have fewer than 4 Hs is wrong. I (and plenty of others) can personally attest to that being overly cautious/misleading and do not have any of the special pluses you mentioned.

Anonymous User wrote:[*]It's surprisingly easy to get SAs at V10s in NYC. Those big corporate shops take dozens, sometimes hundreds, of SAs. Skadden NYC alone extends offers to 1/6th of the HLS class every year. I personally know someone who had 4 Hs or fewer after 1L at every V10 except WLRK and SullCrom.

Know of at least one person at S&C with this exact grade profile.

TL;DR: People who talk about grade cutoffs usually don't know what they're talking about. Even where a firm has grade rules, there are almost always exceptions made (esp. for HLS students). It's quite common for students who perform well in class but poorly in interviews to chalk up their EIP shortcomings to something like high grade cutoffs, when in reality their interviews simply did not go very well.

On the issue of DC and grades: For one data point, I had 4 Hs and bid almost all DC, and ended up with only one DC offer. The offer took a while to come in, and I was a nervous wreck until it did.

If someone is committed to DC and not super strong on grades, be sure to look at firms besides the traditional DC powerhouses that draw lots of HLS attention.

ETA: I did EIP a number of years ago; my impression is that it is difficult every year.

This is good advice re: DC regardless of grades. DC was unusually competitive last year (take a look at the HLS EIP 2017 thread for specifics). It's certainly possible to get offers in DC with median and below median grades (and I know of folks who did) but I also know of people with excellent grades (6+ H) who struggled to get offers bidding mostly DC. I'd recommend bidding a few firms in a less competitive market like NY even if you'd prefer to be in DC.

The conventional wisdom from this thread that last year was a “bloodbath” in DC isn’t really borne out by the data. Would recommend people compare the 2017 EIP spreadsheet OCS provides with 2016 to discern the degree to which there was any difference. The 2017 HLS EIP thread here is mainly filled with anecdata from people who were struggling.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Here's some quick EIP tips from someone who graduated comparatively recently. Since I relied on this board a lot when I was prepping for EIP I thought I'd pay it forward.

[li
[*]Don't waste bids in DC if you have fewer than 4Hs, unless you have something going for you that would make up for average-ish grades in other contexts (patent bar eligibility, super-duper softs, URM status, etc.).

This advice seems too risk-averse. Sure, maybe don't go all in on DC if you are feeling nervous about your grades. But insinuating that you can't bid DC at all from HLS if you have fewer than 4 Hs is wrong. I (and plenty of others) can personally attest to that being overly cautious/misleading and do not have any of the special pluses you mentioned.

Anonymous User wrote:[*]It's surprisingly easy to get SAs at V10s in NYC. Those big corporate shops take dozens, sometimes hundreds, of SAs. Skadden NYC alone extends offers to 1/6th of the HLS class every year. I personally know someone who had 4 Hs or fewer after 1L at every V10 except WLRK and SullCrom.

Know of at least one person at S&C with this exact grade profile.

TL;DR: People who talk about grade cutoffs usually don't know what they're talking about. Even where a firm has grade rules, there are almost always exceptions made (esp. for HLS students). It's quite common for students who perform well in class but poorly in interviews to chalk up their EIP shortcomings to something like high grade cutoffs, when in reality their interviews simply did not go very well.

I'm the anon you're quoting. First, you absolutely can get DC firms with grades in the 4H ballpark, but it can be tough. Look at the EIP threads of previous years for evidence. At the end of the day EIP is a numbers game. Even if DC is your first choice market, at some point it's just a better use of your bids to chase one of the 70 SA slots at Cleary NYC instead of one of the 9 SA slots at BakerBotts DC. A lot of those smaller DC firms you can add the day-of anyway.

I am part of the West Coast Law Students Association but am applying to a bunch of New York firms. Do you recommend taking the West Coast club out of my resume for the NYC firms or will NYC firms not care?

Anonymous User wrote:I am part of the West Coast Law Students Association but am applying to a bunch of New York firms. Do you recommend taking the West Coast club out of my resume for the NYC firms or will NYC firms not care?

More importantly, do you think it adds anything to your resume? What are you trying to communicate about yourself by listing it on your resume? More clutter on your resume detracts from the things you think are important. If an interviewer asked you about your membership in that association, what would you say, and do you think it would be worth the couple of minutes in your 20 minute interview?

If you're from the West Coast, think talking about the West Coast is important to understanding who you are and where you came from, AND you have a good narrative about why you want to work in NYC regardless, then keep it in. If it just shows "I was active in clubs," I'd remove it.

Anonymous User wrote:Do people typically omit the part of the transcript that includes next year's (tentative) courses? When I download as a PDF from Helios it displays both 1L and 2L years, but I can obviously just print the first page.

Also curious about this. If you need to print both pages, does that mean that your 2L course choices might theoretically impact your chances at the screener? On the other hand, the first page does say page 1 of 2 at the bottom. It could be weird not to have the second page attached?

I only printed 1L grades. I'm not sure if firms would care if you included your 2L grades, but having everything on one page seemed cleaner.

I cannot imagine a world where your 2L class choice has any impact at all on firms decision making process. If you a have a particular interest and that is reflected in your class choices I guess maybe that could casually come up, but that's the type of stuff that will probably just come up through the course of a usual interview anyway.

Anonymous User wrote:The conventional wisdom from this thread that last year was a “bloodbath” in DC isn’t really borne out by the data. Would recommend people compare the 2017 EIP spreadsheet OCS provides with 2016 to discern the degree to which there was any difference. The 2017 HLS EIP thread here is mainly filled with anecdata from people who were struggling.

Where can one find it, out of curiosity?

A few pointers from someone who made a lot of mistakes at EIP at HLS sometime within the last few years.

1. If you don't have really good grades, consider telling firms you're interested in corporate even if you really want to end up doing litigation. I had 4 Hs after 1L and was a bit too firm in telling interviewers that I want to do litigation. In retrospect, I should have presented myself as more open to other practice groups. Around 2/3 of students say they want to do litigation and around 1/3 corporate, but many firms' staffing needs are closer to the inverse. You are in higher demand at those firms if you want to do corporate, and firms care less about law school grades for corporate because the work is so different from what you do in law school.

2. I can't overstate enough how much coming across as personable matters. I'm not an awkward person, but for some reason I asked very stock questions at interviews and I didn't let myself shine through except in a couple of interviews, and lo, those are the firms that gave me callbacks. In contrast, friends of mine with worse grades did really well at EIP because they came across as genuine.

3. A huge problem with EIP (for me at least) is that a lot of people never learn anything meaningful about the firm until they go for callbacks. I made this mistake. Take the time to learn what sets each firm apart in their minds. Call people that work there, and as a bonus, they might notify recruiting that you expressed real interest in learning more. In retrospect, the firms that gave me callbacks, were the ones that I had reached out to partners or associates (even summers from HLS) to ask about the firm.

4. I had an awkward article that I wrote in college listed on my resume. I stand by what I wrote, but when I was asked to explain it at an interview, I completely killed my chances of ever getting a callback, because this wasn't a topic appropriate for a screener. Consider taking those things out unless you would be proud to talk about it and you can do so articulately.

5. If you are really interested in a firm, tell them why. Firms want to offer callbacks to people who they think are going to accept them. It is to the benefit of both of you if you tell them that you really want to work there for the summer, and if you give them an intelligent reason why.

6. Be open-minded about going to firms that are slightly out of the mainstream. People who go to the brand-name firms that take 30 HLS students a year are not always the happiest, nor do they always get the best work assignments. Think about what you want, and what type of place will offer you that.

P.S. Don't worry, I ended up with a job at a firm that I couldn't be more happy with. Perhaps not what was in my mind's eye when I started law school, but I am happier here than I would be elsewhere. The firm has top notch clients (Fortune 50 companies and the like) and offers great work, training, and benefits to even junior associates. During my summer there I got to work on cases that excited me, the assignments I did were valuable to the team, and they asked for and respected my opinions. I received excellent formal training, and the atmosphere was healthy and fun. Perhaps the only thing the firm lacks is instant brand recognition, however it more than makes up for that in pretty much every other way.

Anonymous User wrote: 1. If you don't have really good grades, consider telling firms you're interested in corporate even if you really want to end up doing litigation. I had 4 Hs after 1L and was a bit too firm in telling interviewers that I want to do litigation. In retrospect, I should have presented myself as more open to other practice groups. Around 2/3 of students say they want to do litigation and around 1/3 corporate, but many firms' staffing needs are closer to the inverse. You are in higher demand at those firms if you want to do corporate, and firms care less about law school grades for corporate because the work is so different from what you do in law school.

This post was full of good advice. However, I'd be cautious about this. Depending on the firm, they may hire summer associates (and then make permanent offers) based on a certain number of positions in various litigation and corporate practice groups. If the interviewer marks you as a corporate summer associate and you're hired as such, it may be very difficult to get litigation work over the summer, and even harder to do litigation once you start as an associate. All that said, some firms are more flexible in staffing and you might not get pigeon-holed so quickly. And I think it is correct that stating an interest in corporate work will, particularly for some of the big NY firms, be very attractive and lead you to more job offers. Just be cautious.

Anonymous User wrote:A few pointers from someone who made a lot of mistakes at EIP at HLS sometime within the last few years.

1. If you don't have really good grades, consider telling firms you're interested in corporate even if you really want to end up doing litigation. I had 4 Hs after 1L and was a bit too firm in telling interviewers that I want to do litigation. In retrospect, I should have presented myself as more open to other practice groups. Around 2/3 of students say they want to do litigation and around 1/3 corporate, but many firms' staffing needs are closer to the inverse. You are in higher demand at those firms if you want to do corporate, and firms care less about law school grades for corporate because the work is so different from what you do in law school.

2. I can't overstate enough how much coming across as personable matters. I'm not an awkward person, but for some reason I asked very stock questions at interviews and I didn't let myself shine through except in a couple of interviews, and lo, those are the firms that gave me callbacks. In contrast, friends of mine with worse grades did really well at EIP because they came across as genuine.

3. A huge problem with EIP (for me at least) is that a lot of people never learn anything meaningful about the firm until they go for callbacks. I made this mistake. Take the time to learn what sets each firm apart in their minds. Call people that work there, and as a bonus, they might notify recruiting that you expressed real interest in learning more. In retrospect, the firms that gave me callbacks, were the ones that I had reached out to partners or associates (even summers from HLS) to ask about the firm.

4. I had an awkward article that I wrote in college listed on my resume. I stand by what I wrote, but when I was asked to explain it at an interview, I completely killed my chances of ever getting a callback, because this wasn't a topic appropriate for a screener. Consider taking those things out unless you would be proud to talk about it and you can do so articulately.

5. If you are really interested in a firm, tell them why. Firms want to offer callbacks to people who they think are going to accept them. It is to the benefit of both of you if you tell them that you really want to work there for the summer, and if you give them an intelligent reason why.

6. Be open-minded about going to firms that are slightly out of the mainstream. People who go to the brand-name firms that take 30 HLS students a year are not always the happiest, nor do they always get the best work assignments. Think about what you want, and what type of place will offer you that.

P.S. Don't worry, I ended up with a job at a firm that I couldn't be more happy with. Perhaps not what was in my mind's eye when I started law school, but I am happier here than I would be elsewhere. The firm has top notch clients (Fortune 50 companies and the like) and offers great work, training, and benefits to even junior associates. During my summer there I got to work on cases that excited me, the assignments I did were valuable to the team, and they asked for and respected my opinions. I received excellent formal training, and the atmosphere was healthy and fun. Perhaps the only thing the firm lacks is instant brand recognition, however it more than makes up for that in pretty much every other way.

Couldn't agree with all of this more. I'm an HLS grad who's a senior associate in Texas, and I can't tell you how much the Texas firms WANT to hire HLS grads, but we're not going to if the student comes across as cocky or super awkward. Be genuine, act interested in the firm you're interviewing with and ask unique questions that show you put some time and effort in. If you have 6 H's, then, yes, you're probably going to get a ton of offers, so feel free to ask tougher questions, but when you're talking about median-ish grades, you'd be surprised how quickly you will be dinged if you act as if the firm is lucky to be interviewing you.

In my experience, the average HLS summer associate in Texas performs no better (and perhaps slightly worse) than the average UH or SMU summer associate - the HLS summer associate may actually be smarter, but if the UH/SMU summer out-hustles and puts more effort into their projects, they're going to be the ones that people prefer to work with at the end of the day. This is in the back of the minds of the interviewers while they're interviewing you, and the interviewer doesn't want to be the person who brought back the HLS summer associate who blew off their work and acted like a jerk all summer, so just do all that you can to not give the interviewer any reason to think you would do that.

How screwed am I with 1 H and the rest Ps. I bid pretty broadly, but only one firm below v60. I bid only in NY. I just want to get one offer lol

I’m a transfer who only used 15 or so bids. I bid mostly secondary markets in the region I’m transferring from in addition to a few Boston firms.(Why even go to H? I’ll only spend an additional 30K or so by going to H thanks to the generous need based aid.) Do most bids turn into screeners? Is there a rough percentage you can count on?

Thanks all

Lolstudent wrote:I’m a transfer who only used 15 or so bids. I bid mostly secondary markets in the region I’m transferring from in addition to a few Boston firms.(Why even go to H? I’ll only spend an additional 30K or so by going to H thanks to the generous need based aid.) Do most bids turn into screeners? Is there a rough percentage you can count on?

Thanks all

For most secondary markets, all 15 of your bids will turn into screeners.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:A few pointers from someone who made a lot of mistakes at EIP at HLS sometime within the last few years.

1. If you don't have really good grades, consider telling firms you're interested in corporate even if you really want to end up doing litigation. I had 4 Hs after 1L and was a bit too firm in telling interviewers that I want to do litigation. In retrospect, I should have presented myself as more open to other practice groups. Around 2/3 of students say they want to do litigation and around 1/3 corporate, but many firms' staffing needs are closer to the inverse. You are in higher demand at those firms if you want to do corporate, and firms care less about law school grades for corporate because the work is so different from what you do in law school.

2. I can't overstate enough how much coming across as personable matters. I'm not an awkward person, but for some reason I asked very stock questions at interviews and I didn't let myself shine through except in a couple of interviews, and lo, those are the firms that gave me callbacks. In contrast, friends of mine with worse grades did really well at EIP because they came across as genuine.

3. A huge problem with EIP (for me at least) is that a lot of people never learn anything meaningful about the firm until they go for callbacks. I made this mistake. Take the time to learn what sets each firm apart in their minds. Call people that work there, and as a bonus, they might notify recruiting that you expressed real interest in learning more. In retrospect, the firms that gave me callbacks, were the ones that I had reached out to partners or associates (even summers from HLS) to ask about the firm.

4. I had an awkward article that I wrote in college listed on my resume. I stand by what I wrote, but when I was asked to explain it at an interview, I completely killed my chances of ever getting a callback, because this wasn't a topic appropriate for a screener. Consider taking those things out unless you would be proud to talk about it and you can do so articulately.

5. If you are really interested in a firm, tell them why. Firms want to offer callbacks to people who they think are going to accept them. It is to the benefit of both of you if you tell them that you really want to work there for the summer, and if you give them an intelligent reason why.

6. Be open-minded about going to firms that are slightly out of the mainstream. People who go to the brand-name firms that take 30 HLS students a year are not always the happiest, nor do they always get the best work assignments. Think about what you want, and what type of place will offer you that.

P.S. Don't worry, I ended up with a job at a firm that I couldn't be more happy with. Perhaps not what was in my mind's eye when I started law school, but I am happier here than I would be elsewhere. The firm has top notch clients (Fortune 50 companies and the like) and offers great work, training, and benefits to even junior associates. During my summer there I got to work on cases that excited me, the assignments I did were valuable to the team, and they asked for and respected my opinions. I received excellent formal training, and the atmosphere was healthy and fun. Perhaps the only thing the firm lacks is instant brand recognition, however it more than makes up for that in pretty much every other way.

Couldn't agree with all of this more. I'm an HLS grad who's a senior associate in Texas, and I can't tell you how much the Texas firms WANT to hire HLS grads, but we're not going to if the student comes across as cocky or super awkward. Be genuine, act interested in the firm you're interviewing with and ask unique questions that show you put some time and effort in. If you have 6 H's, then, yes, you're probably going to get a ton of offers, so feel free to ask tougher questions, but when you're talking about median-ish grades, you'd be surprised how quickly you will be dinged if you act as if the firm is lucky to be interviewing you.

In my experience, the average HLS summer associate in Texas performs no better (and perhaps slightly worse) than the average UH or SMU summer associate - the HLS summer associate may actually be smarter, but if the UH/SMU summer out-hustles and puts more effort into their projects, they're going to be the ones that people prefer to work with at the end of the day. This is in the back of the minds of the interviewers while they're interviewing you, and the interviewer doesn't want to be the person who brought back the HLS summer associate who blew off their work and acted like a jerk all summer, so just do all that you can to not give the interviewer any reason to think you would do that.

All of this is correct. Be personable everywhere, and especially for Texas. I also agree that the local schools' students tend to do better work than HLS students, and also that they have better attitudes. And another thing—the vibe at HLS is that summers are for having fun and not making a fool of yourself. That's not the case at many Texas firms. You need to to both of those, but you also need to work hard and hustle for that offer. That's what the UT (and SMU, and St. Mary's, etc.) kids are doing.

And re litigation and pigeonholing: both posters are correct. It just comes down to your risk tolerance. If you're 100% all in on lit, then feel free to say that, no matter your grades. Just be aware that you might be missing out on some firms that would hire you for corporate work only. Likewise, if you're ambivalent but tempted to say "lit" because that's the only thing 1L exposed you to, maybe be open to saying you'd like to try all practice groups. But just be aware that if you somehow spend your whole summer in the restructuring group, that's where your offer will be.

Is the add/drop period the last chance to drop or cancel screeners? I'm a 1L SA at a firm that sometimes gives offers to return. If I get an offer, I will probably drop the majority of my screeners if given the choice. I don't want to waste anyone's time or take up slots that others might be interested in.

Anonymous User wrote:Is the add/drop period the last chance to drop or cancel screeners? I'm a 1L SA at a firm that sometimes gives offers to return. If I get an offer, I will probably drop the majority of my screeners if given the choice. I don't want to waste anyone's time or take up slots that others might be interested in.

Also interested in this.

Lolstudent wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is the add/drop period the last chance to drop or cancel screeners? I'm a 1L SA at a firm that sometimes gives offers to return. If I get an offer, I will probably drop the majority of my screeners if given the choice. I don't want to waste anyone's time or take up slots that others might be interested in.

Also interested in this.

You should not do screeners with a firm that you would not accept an offer with. OCS will tell you not to drop screeners past a certain date no matter what, but you should ignore them. Be polite about it though. Don't just no-show.