Harvard EIP 2018

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:54 pm

What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.


Same as you would for a good federal appellate clerkship.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:08 pm

Here's some quick EIP tips from someone who graduated comparatively recently. Since I relied on this board a lot when I was prepping for EIP I thought I'd pay it forward.

  • Work on your interview skills. Coming off as personable and seeming like a good "fit" are just as important as grades.
  • Know a thing or two about the firms when you interview. This should go without saying, but it bears repeating.
  • Generally speaking, 30-50% of screeners lead to callbacks, and 70-80% of callbacks lead to offers, on average. However, if you don't personally meet those marks, it's OK. That annoying guy who raised his hand five times every class and finished with 4 DS / 6 H is cleaning up and skewing the numbers upward.
  • To build on the last point, don't freak out if you don't have an offer a callback after your first day or two. I didn't get my first offer till Wednesday of EIP. I ended up with between about 10 to 12 CBs and 5 and 8 offers between two markets (being a little vague here so as not to out myself).
  • Don't waste bids in DC if you have fewer than 4Hs, unless you have something going for you that would make up for average-ish grades in other contexts (patent bar eligibility, super-duper softs, URM status, etc.).
  • Even if you love DC and are dead-set on being there, throw 10 or so bids to NYC as well. The 15 or so biggest firms in DC (namely, W&C, Covington, WH, GDC, A&P, Hogan, Skadden, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, Clearly, JonesDay, Akin, and a couple others) give out the vast, vast majority of the city's SAs. They're also also super competitive. It's not uncommon to see students with multiple V10 offers in NYC not land anything at the aforementioned firms in DC.
  • It's surprisingly easy to get SAs at V10s in NYC. Those big corporate shops take dozens, sometimes hundreds, of SAs. Skadden NYC alone extends offers to 1/6th of the HLS class every year. I personally know someone who had 4 Hs or fewer after 1L at every V10 except WLRK and SullCrom.
  • For the love of God, have more than one suit/dress.

EDIT: Used "offer" when I meant callback once. Added some info for clarity.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.


Same as you would for a good federal appellate clerkship.


And how would you define that? 6Hs? 7Hs? 8Hs? 9-10Hs?

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Here's some quick EIP tips from someone who graduated comparatively recently. Since I relied on this board a lot when I was prepping for EIP I thought I'd pay it forward.

  • Work on your interview skills. Coming off as personable and seeming like a good "fit" are just as important as grades.
  • Know a thing or two about the firms when you interview. This should go without saying, but it bears repeating.
  • Generally speaking, 30-50% of screeners lead to callbacks, and 70-80% of callbacks lead to offers, on average. However, if you don't personally meet those marks, it's OK. That annoying guy who raised his hand five times every class and finished with 4 DS / 6 H is cleaning up and skewing the numbers upward.
  • To build on the last point, don't freak out if you don't have an offer after your first day or two. I didn't get my first offer till Wednesday of EIP. I ended with between 5 and 8 offers between two markets (being a little vague here so as not to out myself).
  • Don't waste bids in DC if you have fewer than 4Hs, unless you have something going for you that would make up for average-ish grades in other contexts (patent bar eligibility, super-duper softs, URM status, etc.).
  • Even if you love DC and are dead-set on being there, throw 10 or so bids to NYC as well. The 15 or so biggest firms in DC (namely, W&C, Covington, WH, GDC, A&P, Hogan, Skadden, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley, Clearly, JonesDay, Akin, and a couple others) give out the vast, vast majority of the city's SAs. They're also also super competitive. It's not uncommon to see students with multiple V10 offers in NYC not land anything at the aforementioned firms in DC.
  • It's surprisingly easy to get SAs at V10s in NYC. Those big corporate shops take dozens, sometimes hundreds, of SAs. Skadden NYC alone extends offers to 1/6th of the HLS class every year. I personally know someone who had 4 Hs or fewer after 1L at every V10 except WLRK and SullCrom.
  • For the love of God, have more than one suit/dress.



I agree with the above and wanted to add/clarify a couple of things. I am a 3L and I have a largely public interest-heavy resume, and in retrospect I wish I'd been more prepared for OCI.
  • Rising 2Ls, do not go all in on D.C. unless your grades are excellent. Even if you think you have it in the bag, do at least a couple of interviews in another market. D.C. was a bloodbath last year and my impression generally is that the number of SA positions decreased across the board in multiple markets, so be aware of that. Also, I got asked a lot about my ties to DC (I'm from there, but it wasn't apparent on my resume). Apparently in previous years DC, like NYC, was considered safe for people who didn't have ties, but I would at least have some sort of rationale that you can use for why you want to be there.
  • If you're doing D.C., unless you have excellent grades and/or an appellate clerkship, don't just say "appellate litigation" when screener interviewers ask you what interests you. Appellate lit is quite grade-selective and plenty of bigger firms might allow you to rotate through or try it, but as OCS told me last year, everyone wants to do appellate litigation and most firms don't a ton of spots for it. Weave together a coherent narrative about what has led you to law school, interests you, and why, whether it's general commercial lit, regulatory work, etc. I picked one or two areas of commercial lit that I knew the firms did, and talked about those (e.g. privacy, life sciences, energy regulatory, etc.).
  • Do a mock interview with OCS. I cannot stress how helpful they are. I'm a pretty good interviewer, but I didn't have a ton of experience with firms and they were able to iron out what I should emphasize and how to phrase some of my more resume-specific answers to sound more "firm-y." I did it on Tuesday afternoon and got a pretty immediate uptick in callbacks after that throughout the rest of the weeks.
  • This varies, but I found the Hospitality Suites very helpful. If it's not your thing, totally cool, but if you're very sociable and like meeting people, they can be a great way to get multiple people at the firm to advocate for you. During my callbacks, I also ended up interviewing with a couple of associates I'd met in the hospitality suite, and they remembered me.
  • Be aware that firms don't always send their most socially adept/friendly interviewers. Remember, many of them are alums from the past 5-7 years; in 5 or so years, this might be you or your classmates. Don't take it personally if you have interviewers who are awkward, don't make eye contact, etc., especially at the receptions. Some of the associates will use the receptions as a chance to drink freely and/or get tipsy. Do not do this. Being "fun to party with at receptions" probably won't help your chances.

Lastly, if your interviewer does anything that makes you uncomfortable or seems inappropriate, tell OCS. In my experience last year, they were actually pretty helpful in terms of offering me advice when I had an awkward/potentially inappropriate interaction with an interviewer at a callback.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:[*]Rising 2Ls, do not go all in on D.C. unless your grades are excellent. Even if you think you have it in the bag, do at least a couple of interviews in another market. D.C. was a bloodbath last year and my impression generally is that the number of SA positions decreased across the board in multiple markets, so be aware of that. Also, I got asked a lot about my ties to DC. Apparently in previous years DC, like NYC, was considered safe for people who didn't have ties, but I would at least have some sort of rationale that you can use for why you want to be there.


Rising 3L here. I'm a reasonably personable, 8 H, DC native who struck out in DC last year. If it can happen to me, it can happen to you. Plan accordingly.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:23 pm

Does a guy really need more than one suit? I can get a another but would prefer to stick to my one suit to save money.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.


Same as you would for a good federal appellate clerkship.


And how would you define that? 6Hs? 7Hs? 8Hs? 9-10Hs?


Also curious about this. I would love a shot at Susman Houston but not sure if it's even possible with 6H/1DS/3P.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:02 pm

Do people typically omit the part of the transcript that includes next year's (tentative) courses? When I download as a PDF from Helios it displays both 1L and 2L years, but I can obviously just print the first page.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.


Same as you would for a good federal appellate clerkship.


And how would you define that? 6Hs? 7Hs? 8Hs? 9-10Hs?


Also curious about this. I would love a shot at Susman Houston but not sure if it's even possible with 6H/1DS/3P.


I think you'd have a shot with those grades. Obviously you'd have a better shot with Sears Prize grades (as you would anywhere) but those grades make you a credible candidate. I'd be careful with Susman though; it's a total sweatshop, and, well, the last few paragraphs of this interview read differently in light of MeToo.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What kind of grades do you need to have a shot at Susman and Boies? I assume Susman is even more difficult than Boies. Does the threshold vary for different offices (e.g. Boies DC vs Boies NYC)? Want to avoid bidding them if I have no shot at all.


Same as you would for a good federal appellate clerkship.


And how would you define that? 6Hs? 7Hs? 8Hs? 9-10Hs?


Also curious about this. I would love a shot at Susman Houston but not sure if it's even possible with 6H/1DS/3P.


I think you'd have a shot with those grades. Obviously you'd have a better shot with Sears Prize grades (as you would anywhere) but those grades make you a credible candidate. I'd be careful with Susman though; it's a total sweatshop, and, well, the last few paragraphs of this interview read differently in light of MeToo.


"So who's the ideal fit?
Someone who's clerked at the Supreme Court, is brilliant, and has theatrical presence. There's a theatrical aspect to trial work. We've also had phenomenal female lawyers who have great personality, are smart, and are pleasant to look at.

Aren't you afraid some might find that last comment a bit sexist?
You can ask anyone who has ever worked with me or at SG about whether we are [sexist], and I'm sure they will say no. I do think that any firm that tries jury cases needs a group of lawyers who have courtroom--i.e., theatrical--presence. A person's appearance, male or female, contributes to their presence."

Oooooooff. Wow.

Yeah I never understood the appeal (hah!) of working for Susman if you have those kind of grades, but they certainly do have a rep down here in TX.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:03 pm

Another hint from a recent grad: try really hard to do some research on the firms - more so once you hit the callback stage, and especially if you are bidding NYC. A lot of the firms look really similar from the outside but can be dramatically different from the inside (and even from practice group to practice group) but it does take a bit of research to figure out these differences. The library has access to tons of online resources that can help you learn about some of the details about the actual work different firms do (so you don't just have to rely on vault and hearsay) and the alumni network can be helpful for learning more about personality and fit - though I would target younger associates. I can't think of a single friend in my graduating class who would be annoyed or feel weird about responding to a 2Ls email about firm culture - although they obviously may not be 100% candid about the less pleasant aspects.

Also if you have a semi-good idea about what you are interested in (no worries if you don't) research will really help. The firms you should be targeting will be different if you are interested in M&A vs. arbitration vs. bankruptcy vs. etc.

I know you have probably heard all of the above, but it is helpful to try and remind yourself during the EIP process because chances are the herd mentality will hit you pretty hard if you go in blind, especially if you are bidding NYC. I have friends who basically just picked what they thought were the "best" firms they got offers from and ended up unhappy with their choices after their SA. Some were able to make changes 3L year, some were not.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:50 pm

2H and 8P, what are my chances at top New York firms like Cravath and Skadden?

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 am

Any advice on my bid list?

4H, 6P gunning for New York lit

1. Weil
2. Cravath
3. Sullivan Cromwell
4. Skadden
5. Cleary
6. Milbank
7. Latham
8. Freshfields
9. Cahill
10. Latham
11. Kirkland
12. Gibson
13. Paul Weiss
14. Sidley
15. Jones Day
16. Goodwin
17. Akin
18. Arnold Porter
19. Morgan Lewis
20. Orrick
21. Goodwin
22. Winston Strawn
23. Fried Frank
24. Linklaters
25. Cadwalader

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:2H and 8P, what are my chances at top New York firms like Cravath and Skadden?


The answer for almost any grade specific question from HLS is the same:

Your grades are less relevant than your personality. I got an offer from Cravath with an LP. I assume more than 1 LP would be disqualifying at many top firms but honestly, wouldn't surprise me if someone halfway charismatic could still get multiple offers from nyc v10s.

Straight Ps will get you any nyc biglaw job other than Wachtell and lit boutiques as long as you are a great interviewer. And truly excellent grades will make up for being completely autistic at most firms, but some will just not be interested in people they don't like, regardless of academic excellence.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2H and 8P, what are my chances at top New York firms like Cravath and Skadden?


The answer for almost any grade specific question from HLS is the same:

Your grades are less relevant than your personality. I got an offer from Cravath with an LP. I assume more than 1 LP would be disqualifying at many top firms but honestly, wouldn't surprise me if someone halfway charismatic could still get multiple offers from nyc v10s.

Straight Ps will get you any nyc biglaw job other than Wachtell and lit boutiques as long as you are a great interviewer. And truly excellent grades will make up for being completely autistic at most firms, but some will just not be interested in people they don't like, regardless of academic excellence.


this should probably be rephrased as "you are not automatically disqualified at V10s with straight Ps" - yes, some number of students will be hired with below-median grades, but it's disadvantageous and you should have backup firms that are better fits

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2H and 8P, what are my chances at top New York firms like Cravath and Skadden?


The answer for almost any grade specific question from HLS is the same:

Your grades are less relevant than your personality. I got an offer from Cravath with an LP. I assume more than 1 LP would be disqualifying at many top firms but honestly, wouldn't surprise me if someone halfway charismatic could still get multiple offers from nyc v10s.

Straight Ps will get you any nyc biglaw job other than Wachtell and lit boutiques as long as you are a great interviewer. And truly excellent grades will make up for being completely autistic at most firms, but some will just not be interested in people they don't like, regardless of academic excellence.


this should probably be rephrased as "you are not automatically disqualified at V10s with straight Ps" - yes, some number of students will be hired with below-median grades, but it's disadvantageous and you should have backup firms that are better fits

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2H and 8P, what are my chances at top New York firms like Cravath and Skadden?


The answer for almost any grade specific question from HLS is the same:

Your grades are less relevant than your personality. I got an offer from Cravath with an LP. I assume more than 1 LP would be disqualifying at many top firms but honestly, wouldn't surprise me if someone halfway charismatic could still get multiple offers from nyc v10s.

Straight Ps will get you any nyc biglaw job other than Wachtell and lit boutiques as long as you are a great interviewer. And truly excellent grades will make up for being completely autistic at most firms, but some will just not be interested in people they don't like, regardless of academic excellence.


this should probably be rephrased as "you are not automatically disqualified at V10s with straight Ps" - yes, some number of students will be hired with below-median grades, but it's disadvantageous and you should have backup firms that are better fits


By definition, most HLS people cannot be "great" interviewers. It's a relative concept. So *most people* with below average grades should have backups. Like essentially this is saying "hey, if you're exceptional, you can be the exception to the rule." Sure, thanks? But what's the rule. That's more important.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:09 pm

What is EIP compared to Pre-OCI?

No dumb question right?

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What is EIP compared to Pre-OCI?

No dumb question right?


No dumb questions :)

EIP = the interviews you through HLS, by bidding

Pre-OCI = interviews you get by contacting firms directly, frequently conducted before EIP begins (that's why it's "pre-OCI")

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:29 pm

At what point does an average/mediocre interviewer start having a good shot at places like Cravath then? Also, I thought 2Hs meant you are medianish?

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:At what point does an average/mediocre interviewer start having a good shot at places like Cravath then? Also, I thought 2Hs meant you are medianish?


Everybody from HLS has a shot everywhere. It's so speculative as to what grade cutoffs exist that I'm not even going to try. All I will say is that you will be absolutely amazed at the people who get jobs at Cravath and other allegedly grade-sensitive firms, in spite of average or below average grades, and completely normal personalities. You should be smart, have "back-ups" (if you can call V20s back-ups) but you should be confident that every single firm wants as many HLS kids as they can get, and is looking for reasons to take you. Don't give them any reasons not to.

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:02 pm

How reliable are the 'prior year success' numbers? I know that there is no way to tell for certain, but do you guys think bidding a firm 5 slots ahead of the 'prior year success' number (e.g. bidding at 5 for <11) is enough to guarantee that I get a screener? Any upperclassmen have any insight?

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Re: Harvard EIP 2018

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How reliable are the 'prior year success' numbers? I know that there is no way to tell for certain, but do you guys think bidding a firm 5 slots ahead of the 'prior year success' number (e.g. bidding at 5 for <11) is enough to guarantee that I get a screener? Any upperclassmen have any insight?


I've been told that prior-year success numbers aren't dead-on. Buffering by six or seven slots is probably safe--but do remember that there's a flurry of movement after the lottery, during the add/drop period and during EIP itself. And, should worse become worst, you can always resume-drop and/or charm your way into an interview.



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