Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

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malibustacy

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby malibustacy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:46 pm

Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:53 pm

malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Speaking of which, the person who set up the O'Melveny blog is on the verge of being sued. O'Melveny sent them a letter and they refused to take the site down. Monitoring this. http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... ny_18.html

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:58 pm

malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Betting you're a 0L or at least not in BigLaw.

I used to think like you. And then you get actually screamed at for not knowing/seeing something that you were never cc'd on. Or you get flat out thrown under the bus for no reason at all.

And yes, I worked before going to law school. Different world out here.

malibustacy

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby malibustacy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Speaking of which, the person who set up the O'Melveny blog is on the verge of being sued. O'Melveny sent them a letter and they refused to take the site down. Monitoring this. http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... ny_18.html


Yeah, this is what happens. According to David Lat, there's plenty of really juicy, scandalous stuff Above the Law simply refuses to publish because of legal liability. Doesn't matter if you're right or not. A firm like O'Melveny can just drown you in your legal costs.

malibustacy

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby malibustacy » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Betting you're a 0L or at least not in BigLaw.

I used to think like you. And then you get actually screamed at for not knowing/seeing something that you were never cc'd on. Or you get flat out thrown under the bus for no reason at all.

And yes, I worked before going to law school. Different world out here.


I also work in BigLaw, and I worked before going to law school. It's shit at any competitive profession. People get thrown under the bus anywhere there's a competitive advantage to be gained in doing so. At least BigLaw has exit opportunities with less competitive pressures; quitting or changing practice groups is hell of a lot more a realistic solution to your immediate problems than some people trying to create some "reputation" website for partners.

JHP

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby JHP » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:08 pm

malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Betting you're a 0L or at least not in BigLaw.

I used to think like you. And then you get actually screamed at for not knowing/seeing something that you were never cc'd on. Or you get flat out thrown under the bus for no reason at all.

And yes, I worked before going to law school. Different world out here.


I also work in BigLaw, and I worked before going to law school. It's shit at any competitive profession. People get thrown under the bus anywhere there's a competitive advantage to be gained in doing so. At least BigLaw has exit opportunities with less competitive pressures; quitting or changing practice groups is hell of a lot more a realistic solution to your immediate problems than some people trying to create some "reputation" website for partners.


It's that kind of mindset that keeps the chain of screaming going in our professions. "It's shit at any competitive profession" because of the exact type of thinking you're propagating--the "suck it up or quit" policy. It doesn't have to continue to be like that.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Speaking of which, the person who set up the O'Melveny blog is on the verge of being sued. O'Melveny sent them a letter and they refused to take the site down. Monitoring this. http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... ny_18.html


Don't you just cringe when you see an email from a OMM partner say, in passing, ''cease and desist''? I mean its just redundant and useless

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:Man lawyers are such whiners. Horrible bosses exist in any profession, whether blue collar jobs, Fortune 500 companies, or investment banks.

Not to mention potential for libel lawsuits and other legal liabilities for anyone thinking of seriously running such a "reputation grader" website.

Just suck it up or quit. It's an at will employment system.


Speaking of which, the person who set up the O'Melveny blog is on the verge of being sued. O'Melveny sent them a letter and they refused to take the site down. Monitoring this. http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... ny_18.html


Don't you just cringe when you see an email from a OMM partner say, in passing, ''cease and desist''? I mean its just redundant and useless


I think the threat of suing is an age-old scare tactic. If what he says is true, I don't think they'll make the situation even more public than it already is. There are many people who haven't yet stumbled across these allegations and it would be more damaging to OMM's reputation to sue him than it would be to ignore him.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:53 am

In stories of "I need a life," I just scrolled through over 10,000 (really) partner listings on https://upwardrevs.com/ and could not find a single review.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:25 am

MOD EDIT: Site Advertising

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:56 am

I would bet money that this thread was started by the creator of that upward reviews website. Gorilla marketing at its finest.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:22 am

There are two big problems with partner reviews. First, personality compatibility matters a ton and two different associates can have vastly different experiences with the same partner. Second, you can have a partner who treats everyone like a saint but is not good to work with long term (has no deal flow; has no juice with other partners; doesn’t teach you as much) and partners who are grueling hell to work but still worth it because if they like you, it opens doors all over the place. Obviously the best is the partner that’s a saint and opens doors if they like you, but to be honest that’s inherently anti-correlated and also very hard to know for without a couple of years of hindsight / knowledge of firm politics. (This is one of the reasons why advice from fellow JUNIORS about who is best to work for is blind-leading-the-blind useless.) No one is ever posting that information online.

One of the 2 or 3 best partners I’ve worked for, someone I’d die on a hill for, has had such bad experiences with some other associates that it once got referenced on ATL. I don’t doubt other people’s bad experience but it goes to show how hard it is to know who will be a good fit for you personally.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There are two big problems with partner reviews. First, personality compatibility matters a ton and two different associates can have vastly different experiences with the same partner. Second, you can have a partner who treats everyone like a saint but is not good to work with long term (has no deal flow; has no juice with other partners; doesn’t teach you as much) and partners who are grueling hell to work but still worth it because if they like you, it opens doors all over the place. Obviously the best is the partner that’s a saint and opens doors if they like you, but to be honest that’s inherently anti-correlated and also very hard to know for without a couple of years of hindsight / knowledge of firm politics. (This is one of the reasons why advice from fellow JUNIORS about who is best to work for is blind-leading-the-blind useless.) No one is ever posting that information online.

One of the 2 or 3 best partners I’ve worked for, someone I’d die on a hill for, has had such bad experiences with some other associates that it once got referenced on ATL. I don’t doubt other people’s bad experience but it goes to show how hard it is to know who will be a good fit for you personally.


Very thoughtful post, and no information is perfect, but a world where each partner has dozens of reviews would be a different and I think better one?

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:There are two big problems with partner reviews. First, personality compatibility matters a ton and two different associates can have vastly different experiences with the same partner. Second, you can have a partner who treats everyone like a saint but is not good to work with long term (has no deal flow; has no juice with other partners; doesn’t teach you as much) and partners who are grueling hell to work but still worth it because if they like you, it opens doors all over the place. Obviously the best is the partner that’s a saint and opens doors if they like you, but to be honest that’s inherently anti-correlated and also very hard to know for without a couple of years of hindsight / knowledge of firm politics. (This is one of the reasons why advice from fellow JUNIORS about who is best to work for is blind-leading-the-blind useless.) No one is ever posting that information online.

One of the 2 or 3 best partners I’ve worked for, someone I’d die on a hill for, has had such bad experiences with some other associates that it once got referenced on ATL. I don’t doubt other people’s bad experience but it goes to show how hard it is to know who will be a good fit for you personally.


"Someone I'd die on a hill for"....hmmm I don't think there's a single person I've ever met in my firm who I'd do that for. In any case, there is value in hearing others' opinions even if you might feel differently in similar circumstances. If someone tells me..."this partner is a black hole and you'll send them stuff without hearing anything about it until the very last minute. Expect to stay up all night responding to their VERY nit-picky edits even though they sat on the brief/motion/etc. for weeks." There is value in that. Opinions that are conclusory and lacking in detail are of no value but this is true no matter the level of the associate providing the opinion.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:I would bet money that this thread was started by the creator of that upward reviews website. Gorilla marketing at its finest.


Heh. I'm the one who asked for someone to add a review to the site. I got sucked into it by OP and literally spent over an hour scrolling through every firm looking for a review. Not one. Not a single review of a single partner on upwardrevs.com. I don't think this is going to happen.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:57 am

A decade ago everyone would talk about how bad it was to work for Dennis Block, who I believe was as Cadwalader back then. Seems like every firm I’ve worked at has at least one person that people avoid like the plague. Has anyone here worked for Dennis Block?

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A decade ago everyone would talk about how bad it was to work for Dennis Block, who I believe was as Cadwalader back then. Seems like every firm I’ve worked at has at least one person that people avoid like the plague. Has anyone here worked for Dennis Block?


Google says he moved to Greenberg Traurig in 2011. I had never heard of him but I like talk like this. Funny upwardrevs.com didn't add Greenberg Traurig's lawyers to its database for some reason.

jd20132013

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby jd20132013 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A decade ago everyone would talk about how bad it was to work for Dennis Block, who I believe was as Cadwalader back then. Seems like every firm I’ve worked at has at least one person that people avoid like the plague. Has anyone here worked for Dennis Block?


Google says he moved to Greenberg Traurig in 2011. I had never heard of him but I like talk like this. Funny upwardrevs.com didn't add Greenberg Traurig's lawyers to its database for some reason.



Why do you keep writing the full name of the website in every post ? Do you write amazon.com whenever you reference amazon ?

How strange, I wonder why you’d do that

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:14 am

jd20132013 wrote:Why do you keep writing the full name of the website in every post ? Do you write amazon.com whenever you reference amazon ?

How strange, I wonder why you’d do that


Heh. No I'm not upwardrevs creator. I'd like such a site to succeed, but not sure it'll be that one.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:"Someone I'd die on a hill for"....hmmm I don't think there's a single person I've ever met in my firm who I'd do tha't for. In any case, there is value in hearing others' opinions even if you might feel differently in similar circumstances. If someone tells me..."this partner is a black hole and you'll send them stuff without hearing anything about it until the very last minute. Expect to stay up all night responding to their VERY nit-picky edits even though they sat on the brief/motion/etc. for weeks." There is value in that. Opinions that are conclusory and lacking in detail are of no value but this is true no matter the level of the associate providing the opinion.


This. I can deal with yelling and screaming to a certain degree, but professionalism would be nice to know. Nothing worse than a court deadline being put in jeopardy or a client getting antsy because they've sent follow-up emails to a question they asked, all because your partner disappeared off the face of the planet and won't respond to something you sent to them for approval.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:26 pm

Quoting Harrison Barnes
"I know one attorney who has been practicing approximately 20 years now. Since he was about six or seven years out of law school, he has consistently had about $1 to $3-million in business. Like clockwork, he switches firms about every 12 to 18 months. He has worked for at least 15 firms. He is currently working for a law firm that is an AmLaw 100 firm. He has well-known substance abuse problems and a penchant for spending lots of free time with prostitutes. When he leaves firms, he generally pisses them off. He has enemies all around the city he works in and a horrible reputation for being a job hopper." https://www.bcgsearch.com/article/90004 ... ess-Makes/

This shows you how much power partners have and why it's important to find a way to equalize things. A review website could do that.

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LaLiLuLeLo

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby LaLiLuLeLo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Quoting Harrison Barnes
"I know one attorney who has been practicing approximately 20 years now. Since he was about six or seven years out of law school, he has consistently had about $1 to $3-million in business. Like clockwork, he switches firms about every 12 to 18 months. He has worked for at least 15 firms. He is currently working for a law firm that is an AmLaw 100 firm. He has well-known substance abuse problems and a penchant for spending lots of free time with prostitutes. When he leaves firms, he generally pisses them off. He has enemies all around the city he works in and a horrible reputation for being a job hopper." https://www.bcgsearch.com/article/90004 ... ess-Makes/

This shows you how much power partners have and why it's important to find a way to equalize things. A review website could do that.


Why would I, as an associate, give a shit if a partner I’m working for likes hoors and blow? If they’re good to work for then I don’t care.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:36 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:
Why would I, as an associate, give a shit if a partner I’m working for likes hoors and blow? If they’re good to work for then I don’t care.


lol. What I meant was that if they can get away with this sort of thing, they can get away with abusing associates.

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:11 am

Keep this good idea alive.

SFSpartan

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Re: Bad partners to work for at each biglaw firm

Postby SFSpartan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:08 pm

While there are bad partners to work for at any law firm, I'm skeptical that a partner "review" site will take off for the following reasons:

1. Anonymity - Partners typically don't work with a terribly large group of associates, so it would be difficult to give a negative review with enough detail to be helpful without outing onesself. Of course, associates could wait until they left to leave reviews, but (a) time is going to dissipate the urge to give a negative review and (b) people generally don't like burning bridges.

2. Custom - Lawyers generally don't tell unrelated third parties bad things about other lawyers in an identifiable way. At most, if someone is a pain to work with, I'll hear other people describe them as "difficult" without further specifics. This isn't really helpful, since "difficult" can mean a bunch of different things (anecdotally, I've heard "difficult" be used as a proxy for attorneys that are screamers, kinda psychopathic, disorganized, lazy, or needlessly picky - obviously, this runs the gauntlet enough so that it is not helpful.

3. "Bad" is a Broad Term - Some partners are "bad" to work for, but "bad" can mean a lot of different things. Some partners are "bad" to work for because they don't have juice within the firm. Others are bad because they are lazy, and still others are bad because they have prickly personalities.

4. Associate Experiences are Subjective - Different people are going to interact well/poorly with different personalities. So, one associate may have an awful experience with one partner, while another may have a great experience with said partner. For example, at my prior firm, I worked with a partner that had a reputation of being a pain to work with because he/she was very particular about associate work product, and because the partner tended to express displeasure with associates' work product fairly rudely. However, I got what the partner wanted from me, so had a great experience with him/her.

Also, a certain legal recruiter named above has a reputation for hyperbole and routinely publishes blog posts with stories that seem a bit too close to his point to be real. Accordingly, I'd take any story that recruiter spins into a blog post with a grain of salt.



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