Is Law School Worth it? Forum

[abogadesq]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

[Toni V]

If you are in BL and a millennial, compare your salary against those in your specific age range and you will [likely] discover that you are in the top 1% of earners (nationally).

[Anonymous User]

Was largely unemployable before law school. Made $23k in the middle of nowhere. Went to HYS with near full need based aid but still have 150k plus debt. Work in biglaw in major market and wake up hating my life everyday. Thoughts alternate between suicide and fleeing the country to escape debt. Law school was not worth it for me and wouldn’t be no matter how much I made.

[Anonymous User]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

[Anonymous User]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You do a terrible job making a point, then. Attacking people on here, acting like you’re so high and mighty, just for pointing out some holes in your argument isn’t the best way to make a point.

There are many, many ways to make money. But at the end of the day, most people in law school can’t do those jobs you and many people mentioned (banking, medicine, tech). Aside from a handful of people, law students cannot even do basic algebra (which is painfully obvious when you take a basic tax course). So, if you are literate, want to make money, and are terrible at science/math, many of the other high-paying jobs aren’t available to you. Therefore, either starting your own business (also extremely difficult) or doing a trade (plumber, electrician) are the two more reasonable options.

There’s no need to attack people for merely pointing out that not everyone can be a SWE. Calling people insecure while also personally attacking people who make holes in your argument shows that you’re just as insecure as these “K-JDs” out here. Also, I’ll be the first one to agree that law students are very insecure because they feel they deserve more money for “suffering” through law school (see the NY to $200k thread).

So, to OP, if you couldn’t really do math/science, or you didn’t go to a top undergrad (for IB), there aren’t as many options for you. You could wait and go get your MBA, then do management consulting (which again involves some numbers).

So, if you want a job that pays well, you can either go into HR for one of these huge companies (I think they pay “entry level” HR people around 80k-100k in large cities), start your own business (would require $$), or do a trade job.

If none of those seems appetizing to you, and your main goal is to make money, then study for the LSAT, get into a school with no debt (i.e., wash u, vandy, or UT, if not T14) and try to get good enough grades to get a biglaw job.

PS, I’m one of the anons from before.

[lawhopeful100]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You’re “entire point” that there are better options in compensation for everyone or even most people is what I’m saying is wrong. I had a mediocre gpa and an Econ degree from a shitty state school. Just checked and the median starting salary on my schools website for that major is 60k. That’s also likely an inflated figure based on reporting. Nothing else, given my major and skill set, would have gotten me close to 160k like law did. And as another poster recently mentioned, 160k for a 27 year old puts you in the top 1% of income bracket for that age. It’s absurd and goes against statistics to pretend that most people have easy avenues to making more money than at their biglaw job.

[nixy]

Also, lol at JohnnieSockran's "trolling" comment. I love it when K-JD attorneys get jealous when other people make more money on less effort. Or they find it unbelievable because 160k was their life goal and so unbelievable to them Like most attorneys offline, you can usually wait for the angry jealous "BS" call or some passive aggressive whiny remark when they find out you're in the neighborhood they want to live in or the country club their boss really wants to join.

They can be a whiny, jealous loser all they want, just know if they say spew the same stupid garbage in person they'll look ignorant to actual rich people. They're akin to the online version of the small-town drunk at a bar that thinks he's baller with his Mercedes because it's their first time in the city. In fact, they should all form a law forum about law schools, appoint themselves as moderators, and grow fat and be bitter at people together while bragging about their 6 digit salaries on 6 digit loans.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

I have to assume these are all the same person, but the pointless anon makes it impossible to tell. Regardless, the above are all really stupid ways to argue, and guarantee that everyone discounts what you say pretty much immediately.

[Npret]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You’re “entire point” that there are better options in compensation for everyone or even most people is what I’m saying is wrong. I had a mediocre gpa and an Econ degree from a shitty state school. Just checked and the median starting salary on my schools website for that major is 60k. That’s also likely an inflated figure based on reporting. Nothing else, given my major and skill set, would have gotten me close to 160k like law did. And as another poster recently mentioned, 160k for a 27 year old puts you in the top 1% of income bracket for that age. It’s absurd and goes against statistics to pretend that most people have easy avenues to making more money than at their biglaw job.

The problem is that going into law just for the money is a mistake and can be costly if a person misses biglaw or hates it, as many people do. It’s perfect for strivers who get their self esteem from the name of the firm they work for,but it definitely isn’t for everyone.
The real issue for law school, besides needing to want to be a lawyer, and understanding what that means in terms of your work and life, is the cost. It’s insane to spend so much for School.
The amount you make has to be tempered by the fragility of jobs/careers in biglaw and the fact that most biglaw lawyers leave after a few years, voluntarily or otherwise. It may be good for a few years, but it isn’t a good long term plan.
If you are going to look at money, include the debt and look at a career not just what you make out of school.

[Npret]

Still not sure why you're anon, but whatever.

The flaw with your logic, is that dollars per hour is an imperfect measurement. Would you recommend anyone take a job paying $2000/hour, if it there's only 1 hour per month of work available?

That's an extreme example, but comparing biglaw hours and pay to 40 hour/week jobs in the $80k range is apples and oranges. Yes that guy has more free time, and also probably makes more money per hour. However, a holiday flight to visit family still costs the same amount of money no matter how many hours you work. Eating out still costs the same amount no matter how many hours you worked. A vacation to Mexico still costs the same no matter how many hours you worked.

All that is to say that dollars/hour is not a perfect measurement, because there are things you can do with more dollars (even if it means far more hours). Neither is better, and everyone has to make a personal choice, but again, apples to oranges.

I mention the per hour pay breakdown because in the case of a firm I worked for, it had an offer to be acquired by a bigger firm. This bigger firm required big firm billable hours. So, when calculated the firm I worked for figured they'd actually be making less per hour while working harder, and so to them it was not worth being acquired.

It is a balance and a lifestyle choice. Some people see $180,000 and it's a huge number, want that status and will work the hours because it's a big number to them. Some people see $180,000 and it's not a big number at all, and want $180,000,000 or $1.8 billion (hence people leaving $200,000 careers in tech to try their hand at start-ups).

But there's really not that big of a difference between $80,000 on 40 hours + and part-time job versus $160,000 on 70 hours. It's not like with one you're staying at a sketchy airBnB in Mexico whereas with the other you're in the The W presidential suite. With either the $80,000 or $160,000 depending on where you live, you can go on a nice trip to Mexico at the Hyatt/Hilton/Marriott in either case. There's not much of a lifestyle difference, aside from maybe 1 is driving a Toyota Camry and another is driving a BMW 3.

That's actually a huge lifestyle difference (see bolded/underlined). We'll have to agree to disagree, but after taxes, that's a difference of probably around $4000 per month, and call it $2000 after making a student loan payment (using $180k scale instead of $160k, since that is the new norm). Also, with adding the part about the part-time job, you've now lost your hours argument if that guy is surpassing a 40 hour week.

I max my 401k, and still take home roughly $9,300/mo.

On $80k, that's likely a monthly take home of around $4,800, with much less than a maxed out 401k. If I make a 2000 loan payment, its still a difference between 7300 and 4800 ($2500/month).

$2500 does a lot more than take you from a Camry to a 3 series.

How long do you expect this salary? A few people stay, but most don’t. Look at your firm. Maybe if you aren’t in New York it’s more stable, I don’t know. But biglaw is designed in a pyramid scheme. Keep that in mind.

[lawhopeful100]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You’re “entire point” that there are better options in compensation for everyone or even most people is what I’m saying is wrong. I had a mediocre gpa and an Econ degree from a shitty state school. Just checked and the median starting salary on my schools website for that major is 60k. That’s also likely an inflated figure based on reporting. Nothing else, given my major and skill set, would have gotten me close to 160k like law did. And as another poster recently mentioned, 160k for a 27 year old puts you in the top 1% of income bracket for that age. It’s absurd and goes against statistics to pretend that most people have easy avenues to making more money than at their biglaw job.

The problem is that going into law just for the money is a mistake and can be costly if a person misses biglaw or hates it, as many people do. It’s perfect for strivers who get their self esteem from the name of the firm they work for,but it definitely isn’t for everyone.
The real issue for law school, besides needing to want to be a lawyer, and understanding what that means in terms of your work and life, is the cost. It’s insane to spend so much for School.
The amount you make has to be tempered by the fragility of jobs/careers in biglaw and the fact that most biglaw lawyers leave after a few years, voluntarily or otherwise. It may be good for a few years, but it isn’t a good long term plan.
If you are going to look at money, include the debt and look at a career not just what you make out of school.

100% agree. This was more just a response to the idea that everyone can walk out their front door and land a 200k job.

[MillllerTime]

At some point in this thread, someone threw out the assumption that biglaw wasn't a high income job based on the hourly figures - and then they used $160k and 70 hours per week. I just want to point out that those are only accurate if you're a first year billing 3000 hours at Cravath in 2015. I'm at one of the more intense V10s doing corporate work, bill well above average even for my group, and still average much less than 70 hours per week "working" (I'd say 55 total hours per week, 45-48 billable). My total comp will be ~$280k as a 3rd year. Hate on biglaw all you want for many reasons, but let's not act like the money is not very good for the average 26-30 year old.

Also to the lifestyle point about $180k not being much better than $60k because you can't afford a Ferrari or something... that's absurd. You're right that I live a very similar lifestyle to a lot of my friends who make $80k as an accountant, marketer, etc., but the difference is that I'm also saving/investing about $75k more per year than they are. If I were to stay in biglaw another 5-6 years I could retire completely and continue to live very comfortably. That's something that is unheard of outside of SV or NYC finance, and has many have pointed out in here, I had no chance at any of those jobs.

So in short - law school was 100% worth it for me, even if just thinking about it financially.

[sparkytrainer]

Law school is bot really worth it under any circumstances. But if your parents have tons and tons of money to burn and you get into a top school, it can be a fun couple of years and you’ll seem productive and respectable to your peer group

This person is a fool.

I feel like it was worth it. Granted, I went to a top school and got biglaw. I'm a first year, and so far, I actually enjoy my job, but I think I got lucky and work with really great partners/more senior associates.

Also, with respect to other 6 figure careers, even with my huge amount of student debt, I feel rich relative to my friends. I'm comfortable with debt, so I'm not exactly racing to knock out my student loans, especially since I don't hate biglaw already, which I think many people do. It's nice being able to eat out pretty much whenever I feel like it and have my own apartment (I'm in a non-NY market).

None of my other 26 year old friends are making $200k all in, and I can tell you that i-banking hours are WAY worse than biglaw hours, so I feel like law school was worth it. I had a bad week where I got crushed and billed just over 100 hours, but that was only 1 week, even the people I work with were shocked and said how abnormal that was, and my next busiest week outside of that has been about 70 billed hours. But, a friend of mine in banking is consistently spending 80-90+ hours in the office.

But, I don't think law school is worth it financially if you're at a school where getting biglaw is a high risk. So, I agree with one of the posters above who basically said go to T6+Penn (pretty sure we could just call that T7-Penn hasn't been tied with anyone in a few years), and maybe some of the other T13 schools if you get some scholarship money.

Just to throw something out there with regards to your last paragraph- Duke’s biglaw placement is better than every t13 except Columbia. So you have to look at the specific schools too. Given that someone who gets into say UPenn and Duke, Duke places better in biglaw and fed clerkships than UPenn while Duke is much more generous with money. Just food for thought.

[JohnnieSockran]

Still not sure why you're anon, but whatever.

The flaw with your logic, is that dollars per hour is an imperfect measurement. Would you recommend anyone take a job paying $2000/hour, if it there's only 1 hour per month of work available?

That's an extreme example, but comparing biglaw hours and pay to 40 hour/week jobs in the $80k range is apples and oranges. Yes that guy has more free time, and also probably makes more money per hour. However, a holiday flight to visit family still costs the same amount of money no matter how many hours you work. Eating out still costs the same amount no matter how many hours you worked. A vacation to Mexico still costs the same no matter how many hours you worked.

All that is to say that dollars/hour is not a perfect measurement, because there are things you can do with more dollars (even if it means far more hours). Neither is better, and everyone has to make a personal choice, but again, apples to oranges.

I mention the per hour pay breakdown because in the case of a firm I worked for, it had an offer to be acquired by a bigger firm. This bigger firm required big firm billable hours. So, when calculated the firm I worked for figured they'd actually be making less per hour while working harder, and so to them it was not worth being acquired.

It is a balance and a lifestyle choice. Some people see $180,000 and it's a huge number, want that status and will work the hours because it's a big number to them. Some people see $180,000 and it's not a big number at all, and want $180,000,000 or $1.8 billion (hence people leaving $200,000 careers in tech to try their hand at start-ups).

But there's really not that big of a difference between $80,000 on 40 hours + and part-time job versus $160,000 on 70 hours. It's not like with one you're staying at a sketchy airBnB in Mexico whereas with the other you're in the The W presidential suite. With either the $80,000 or $160,000 depending on where you live, you can go on a nice trip to Mexico at the Hyatt/Hilton/Marriott in either case. There's not much of a lifestyle difference, aside from maybe 1 is driving a Toyota Camry and another is driving a BMW 3.

That's actually a huge lifestyle difference (see bolded/underlined). We'll have to agree to disagree, but after taxes, that's a difference of probably around $4000 per month, and call it $2000 after making a student loan payment (using $180k scale instead of $160k, since that is the new norm). Also, with adding the part about the part-time job, you've now lost your hours argument if that guy is surpassing a 40 hour week.

I max my 401k, and still take home roughly $9,300/mo.

On $80k, that's likely a monthly take home of around $4,800, with much less than a maxed out 401k. If I make a 2000 loan payment, its still a difference between 7300 and 4800 ($2500/month).

$2500 does a lot more than take you from a Camry to a 3 series.

How long do you expect this salary? A few people stay, but most don’t. Look at your firm. Maybe if you aren’t in New York it’s more stable, I don’t know. But biglaw is designed in a pyramid scheme. Keep that in mind.

Oh, I completely agree it's not a great long-term plan for everyone. I mentioned in an earlier post that I got lucky because I generally like my job so far and the people I work with. Even if things change and I leave in 3 years, it will have been worth it, because as another poster above mentioned, on a biglaw salary, I'm saving a ton more money each month than I would in any other job I'm qualified to do.

[Anonymous User]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You’re “entire point” that there are better options in compensation for everyone or even most people is what I’m saying is wrong. I had a mediocre gpa and an Econ degree from a shitty state school. Just checked and the median starting salary on my schools website for that major is 60k. That’s also likely an inflated figure based on reporting. Nothing else, given my major and skill set, would have gotten me close to 160k like law did. And as another poster recently mentioned, 160k for a 27 year old puts you in the top 1% of income bracket for that age. It’s absurd and goes against statistics to pretend that most people have easy avenues to making more money than at their biglaw job.

The problem is that going into law just for the money is a mistake and can be costly if a person misses biglaw or hates it, as many people do. It’s perfect for strivers who get their self esteem from the name of the firm they work for,but it definitely isn’t for everyone.

Excellent post.

Yeah, and these strivers are too ridiculous to realize the typical person they meet that they're trying to impress have no clue wtf Cravath, Davis Polk or Wachtell is. Tell them you work at Google, Facebook, or Apple though and they actually recognize the company. Otherwise, they're "striving" to impress who? Depressed, whiny K-JDs?

All the whiny, passive aggressive posts here are perfect examples of why certain people in law can't get jobs in the Valley, start their own successful business or law firm, or convince VCs they're worth investing in. They take multiple posts to make a point it took me 1 post to make pages ago, without all the whining. Talk about inefficiency and wasting time. If I was a client, boss, or investor, I'd jump out the window from how inefficient they are and all the whining that comes with it. I would hop out that window and take a chance with gravity rather than sit through that meeting.

[JohnnieSockran]

$200k is probably the exception, but even if so, keep in mind that it’s $200k in astronomically expensive area full of other similarly high-salaried residents. One of my friends was in the field and earned around that amount in the SF Bay area and his lifestyle was basically middle class.

$200k in astronomically expensive areas where many big law firms are like NYC is basically middle class. Especially when taking into account their 3 more years of grad school loans. Some big law firms pay less and taken into account location & cost of living.

I've already said $80,000-160,000 in big cities is essentially middle class, and not worth the extra hours anyways. What's your point?

Just saying a high salary, alone, isn’t the full picture. It isn’t for biglaw, but it also isn’t for the tech industry (or any industry). Whoever is making that 200k in software probably is in one of those expensive cities.

That's been my entire point, that if we're talking about only caring about salary or annual total compensation, then there are better options than to be an attorney for a big law firm.

If you want to be an attorney, then law school is worth it. If you're interested in highest total compensation or making lots of money, then there are better options.

But the low self-esteem people on this forum had to go cry about how I pointed out that their law firm salaries wasn't as much money as they believe and there are more efficient ways to make money, because their whole identity is based on the fact that their law firm pays them $160,000 for 70 hours of work.

All that for you to just make the same point I did a page ago.

You’re “entire point” that there are better options in compensation for everyone or even most people is what I’m saying is wrong. I had a mediocre gpa and an Econ degree from a shitty state school. Just checked and the median starting salary on my schools website for that major is 60k. That’s also likely an inflated figure based on reporting. Nothing else, given my major and skill set, would have gotten me close to 160k like law did. And as another poster recently mentioned, 160k for a 27 year old puts you in the top 1% of income bracket for that age. It’s absurd and goes against statistics to pretend that most people have easy avenues to making more money than at their biglaw job.

The problem is that going into law just for the money is a mistake and can be costly if a person misses biglaw or hates it, as many people do. It’s perfect for strivers who get their self esteem from the name of the firm they work for,but it definitely isn’t for everyone.

Excellent post.

Yeah, and these strivers are too ridiculous to realize the typical person they meet that they're trying to impress have no clue wtf Cravath, Davis Polk or Wachtell is. Tell them you work at Google, Facebook, or Apple though and they actually recognize the company. Otherwise, they're "striving" to impress who? Depressed, whiny K-JDs?

All the whiny, passive aggressive posts here are perfect examples of why certain people in law can't get jobs in the Valley, start their own successful business or law firm, or convince VCs they're worth investing in. They take multiple posts to make a point it took me 1 post to make pages ago, without all the whining. Talk about inefficiency and wasting time. If I was a client, boss, or investor, I'd jump out the window from how inefficient they are and all the whining that comes with it. I would hop out that window and take a chance with gravity rather than sit through that meeting.

We whine while you sit behind your courageous anonymous curtain, and occasionally grace us with your wisdom from high in the Land of Tech. Please, Mr. Troll, tell me more about my life! Share your secrets to your (friends') wealth! I await with bated breath.

[Toni V]

All I am reading here is limited to the BL income during the first couple of years. The PPP of a BL attorney is often +2M. Take the FBI director, as a BL lawyer he was earning 9.1M before heading to Wash. Kellyanne’s BL husband earns north of 5M. How many careers offer anyone this opportunity? Check the website of BL firms, what you will see are MANY BL partners.

As far as liking this profession or not, please note that it is a job, like any job, it is called WORK.

[nealric]

People only thinking about life as a junior or mid-level associate really aren't looking at the whole picture. That phase is, at most, 6 years of a career that can last 40+ years.

Is law a good choice? It is for some people, not for others. A successful legal career pays more than enough to live comfortably. Once you hit that threshold, how much you enjoy the work and the people you work with is much more important. Very few people are going to be content hunting for misplaced commas or reviewing documents for 70 hours a week, but very few people are in that position for long.

For me, there is no question that it was worth it both financially and from a career satisfaction standpoint. By going to law school, I went from a $30k job to a 160k job in 4 years despite a deep recession. Although I can't say I was a fan of biglaw hours, I was able to get off that train after a few years and make more money than I did as a biglaw junior working 9-5 doing interesting work with people I enjoy. I understand that not everyone is so fortunate and that there is a risk element there, but the risk/reward is something everyone needs to consider carefully for themselves.

My biggest piece of advice before law school is to figure out what you want to be doing in 10 years and decide if law school will help you get there. Not the interview cliche of "where do you see yourself in 5 years." Would you be happy working long hours for high pay in a fast paced environment? Do you want to be solving people's personal problems? Would you rather develop new products and come up with ideas? Do you like an academic environment or not? While you may need to do something you don't like for a period, your actions should be centered around getting to a place that fits within those long term goals. If a law degree doesn't get you to those goals, it's probably not worth pursuing.

[Anonymous User]

All I am reading here is limited to the BL income during the first couple of years. The PPP of a BL attorney is often +2M. Take the FBI director, as a BL lawyer he was earning 9.1M before heading to Wash. Kellyanne’s BL husband earns north of 5M. How many careers offer anyone this opportunity? Check the website of BL firms, what you will see are MANY BL partners.

https://www.elitedaily.com/money/silico ... e-nobodies

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/tech ... 74&gwt=pay

But many such accomplished and ambitious members of the digital elite still do not think of themselves as particularly fortunate, in part because they are surrounded by people with more wealth — often a lot more.

When chief executives are routinely paid tens of millions of dollars a year and a hedge fund manager can collect $1 billion annually, those with a few million dollars often see their accumulated wealth as puny, a reflection of their modest status in the new Gilded Age, when hundreds of thousands of people have accumulated much vaster fortunes.

“Everyone around here looks at the people above them,” said Gary Kremen, the 43-year-old founder of Match.com, a popular online dating service. “It’s just like Wall Street, where there are all these financial guys worth $7 million wondering what’s so special about them when there are all these guys worth in the hundreds of millions of dollars.”

Mr. Kremen estimated his net worth at $10 million. That puts him firmly in the top half of 1 percent among Americans, according to wealth data from the Federal Reserve, but barely in the top echelons in affluent towns like Palo Alto, Menlo Park and Atherton. So he logs 60- to 80-hour workweeks because, he said, he does not think he has nearly enough money to ease up.

“You’re nobody here at $10 million,” Mr. Kremen said earnestly over a glass of pinot noir at an upscale wine bar here.

[jbagelboy]

I’ve been repeatedly and substantially misquoted and misattributed ITT, with many repastings of a segment from a different poster under my handle. Just FYI.

[boredtodeath]

Anonymous, if your point is to prove that being a lawyer, even a biglaw lawyer, will not make you rich, I don't think you need to convince this crowd.

If your point is to say that law school isn't worth it because becoming a software engineer in the Valley is a better option, then I'd like to know what law students you hung out with. The ones at my school could barely do multiplication.

If your point is that being a lawyer is a pussy move and you should start a business if you really want to get rich - sure, but you can say that to anyone and everyone in a salaried job. I'm with you, we are all spineless pussies, but at least I make a little more than the other spineless pussies who graduated with liberal arts degrees.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous, if your point is to prove that being a lawyer, even a biglaw lawyer, will not make you rich, I don't think you need to convince this crowd.

If your point is to say that law school isn't worth it because becoming a software engineer in the Valley is a better option, then I'd like to know what law students you hung out with. The ones at my school could barely do multiplication.

If your point is that being a lawyer is a pussy move and you should start a business if you really want to get rich - sure, but you can say that to anyone and everyone in a salaried job. I'm with you, we are all spineless pussies, but at least I make a little more than the other spineless pussies who graduated with liberal arts degrees.

This is a good post. 5 stars.

See, this guy has "it." Learn from him.

[JohnnieSockran]

Anonymous, if your point is to prove that being a lawyer, even a biglaw lawyer, will not make you rich, I don't think you need to convince this crowd.

If your point is to say that law school isn't worth it because becoming a software engineer in the Valley is a better option, then I'd like to know what law students you hung out with. The ones at my school could barely do multiplication.

If your point is that being a lawyer is a pussy move and you should start a business if you really want to get rich - sure, but you can say that to anyone and everyone in a salaried job. I'm with you, we are all spineless pussies, but at least I make a little more than the other spineless pussies who graduated with liberal arts degrees.

+1

[Loquitur Res]

I had a shit liberal arts degree. Worked for 5-7 years in a dead-end career and maxed out in the mid $30k. Just graduated from a well-regarded regional school. Had a full scholarship. Will be making over 3x my pre-law school salary. Regional big law, working on average 50 hours/ week. Have a very good chance at making partner if I stay for 8 years. Loved law school.

At this point, I can say law school was definitely worth it. I realize my situation is not typical.

Also I LOL at people who criticize people for going to law school when they only have a "coins-flip chance at big law," yet advocate starting business as the best path to striking it rich. They have NO idea how stressful, hard, and risky it is to start a business. Law school is a "sure thing" in comparison. For every person I've seen make it, I've seen 4 others go down down in flames, or flounder along for years, killing themselves to break even.

[Npret]

All I am reading here is limited to the BL income during the first couple of years. The PPP of a BL attorney is often +2M. Take the FBI director, as a BL lawyer he was earning 9.1M before heading to Wash. Kellyanne’s BL husband earns north of 5M. How many careers offer anyone this opportunity? Check the website of BL firms, what you will see are MANY BL partners.

As far as liking this profession or not, please note that it is a job, like any job, it is called WORK.

I know it’s a job, one that I did for many years in biglaw M and A.
If you think you are going to make biglaw partner or be the fbi Director, you are way beyond any common sense or evidence based on experience I could offer.

[Toni V]

All I am reading here is limited to the BL income during the first couple of years. The PPP of a BL attorney is often +2M. Take the FBI director, as a BL lawyer he was earning 9.1M before heading to Wash. Kellyanne’s BL husband earns north of 5M. How many careers offer anyone this opportunity? Check the website of BL firms, what you will see are MANY BL partners.

As far as liking this profession or not, please note that it is a job, like any job, it is called WORK.

I know it’s a job, one that I did for many years in biglaw M and A.
If you think you are going to make biglaw partner or be the FBI Director, you are way beyond any common sense or evidence based on experience I could offer.

With few exceptions not many attorneys make FBI director or SEC of State but LOTS of attorneys make partner….even at your old firm.