When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

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When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 17, 2018 8:03 pm

Is it necessary to wait until 2nd semester grades are posted to start mass mailing? What about journal assignments?

It seems like firms are starting to fill up their classes sooner and sooner every year, so I want to get started mass mailing as soon as possible. But I also don't want to waste my time mailing early if firms will just ignore a mass mail without grades and journal assignment.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 pm

The correct answer is you do it immediately once you have grades, and you can say in the cover letter/email that journal assignments haven't been made yet but you will follow up when they have been.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 17, 2018 9:55 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:The correct answer is you do it immediately once you have grades, and you can say in the cover letter/email that journal assignments haven't been made yet but you will follow up when they have been.

I'm honestly not so sure about this. I've been told so far, by a head recruiting manager at a V-50 firm, and a hiring partner at a V-50 firm, that they really only begin to take stock of their needs at the end of July/beginning of August, since that's when they can assess their needs based on summers that (might) accept or reject offers, as well as whether they have needs regardless. Are there any others here that can speak to the validity of this?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 17, 2018 11:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:The correct answer is you do it immediately once you have grades, and you can say in the cover letter/email that journal assignments haven't been made yet but you will follow up when they have been.

I'm honestly not so sure about this. I've been told so far, by a head recruiting manager at a V-50 firm, and a hiring partner at a V-50 firm, that they really only begin to take stock of their needs at the end of July/beginning of August, since that's when they can assess their needs based on summers that (might) accept or reject offers, as well as whether they have needs regardless. Are there any others here that can speak to the validity of this?


I had 3 offers before OCI. Send you’re stuff as soon as you get grades. The worst that happens is they say we will see you at OCI
Also, the OP is talking about rising 2Ls, so what you are talking about re needs doesn’t matter, since that doesn’t really affect how firms make up classes. OCI happens before people accept offers from summer anyways. This does matter for 3L hiring I’m guessing.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 18, 2018 11:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:The correct answer is you do it immediately once you have grades, and you can say in the cover letter/email that journal assignments haven't been made yet but you will follow up when they have been.

I'm honestly not so sure about this. I've been told so far, by a head recruiting manager at a V-50 firm, and a hiring partner at a V-50 firm, that they really only begin to take stock of their needs at the end of July/beginning of August, since that's when they can assess their needs based on summers that (might) accept or reject offers, as well as whether they have needs regardless. Are there any others here that can speak to the validity of this?


I had 3 offers before OCI. Send you’re stuff as soon as you get grades. The worst that happens is they say we will see you at OCI
Also, the OP is talking about rising 2Ls, so what you are talking about re needs doesn’t matter, since that doesn’t really affect how firms make up classes. OCI happens before people accept offers from summer anyways. This does matter for 3L hiring I’m guessing.


My bad, I thought this was referring to 2L->3L, not 1L->2L. DIdn't read the post well enough

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sun May 20, 2018 10:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:The correct answer is you do it immediately once you have grades, and you can say in the cover letter/email that journal assignments haven't been made yet but you will follow up when they have been.

I'm honestly not so sure about this. I've been told so far, by a head recruiting manager at a V-50 firm, and a hiring partner at a V-50 firm, that they really only begin to take stock of their needs at the end of July/beginning of August, since that's when they can assess their needs based on summers that (might) accept or reject offers, as well as whether they have needs regardless. Are there any others here that can speak to the validity of this?


I had 3 offers before OCI. Send you’re stuff as soon as you get grades. The worst that happens is they say we will see you at OCI
Also, the OP is talking about rising 2Ls, so what you are talking about re needs doesn’t matter, since that doesn’t really affect how firms make up classes. OCI happens before people accept offers from summer anyways. This does matter for 3L hiring I’m guessing.


To follow up on this, I also had multiple offers before OCI. This is especially important if you are trying to get a smaller market or a super competitive market like DC. Over the past 3 years, more and more pre-oci offers are going out especially in DC and starting to see it more in NY. 3 firms in DC I have friends at have completely just stopped needing OCI because they have filled their classes purely with pre-oci.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun May 20, 2018 2:16 pm

Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sun May 20, 2018 2:42 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 20, 2018 5:00 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


For starters, check out the pre-OCI thread from last year. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=279085
At the very least, email these firms. I don't know if it makes sense to apply to every single firm in every city at this point. Like, If there is zero evidence that Faegre Baker in denver is doing pre-oci stuff from cold emails from out of town students with no clear ties, then maybe if you have no ties or real desire to work there than you can stay away from hitting them up until OCI gets closer.

I'm kinda skeptical that the recruiting offices are going to be communicating with each other and comparing notes about who is sending cold emails and then judging applicants that way. I got the sense that a recruiting department in a specific office is self-contained in a lot of ways. I had an offer from a firms NY office and did a screener with a DC office and no one seemed to know at that point (maybe they did. i didn't get a CB but who knows). My point is it seems like a lot of unnecessary work for a recruiting department in what is a busy time for them. In any case, the reality is that if you must have biglaw, you will be mailing every market if you don't get an offer at some point.

I haven't heard of a firm rejecting someone flat out from an email. if anyone has, speak up. But I'm guessing that's not the case, because otherwise this practice would be really risky but a ton of people do it. Also, if a firm rejects you based on resume and grades alone you probably had no chance at OCI. but I'm just thinking out loud here. to be honest, i don't know.

also, just as a heads up chicago really isn't on the pre-oci bandwagon like new york or DC, or at least they weren't as of last summer. offers definitely go out before OCI from chicago firms, and i know of several from last summer, but those are mostly from networking or URM students. That means you should be doing what you can to network with some attorneys this summer and see if they can pass along a resume. I didn't go this route, so I'm not sure how to do that, but maybe some people can share their experience.

so my conclusion is apply to big firms in NY and DC, as they seem to be up on the pre OCI stuff. I don't think they will reject you or care if you are applying to different markets.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 20, 2018 9:51 pm

If you mass mail, are you expected to take a day off from your 1L summer job to do the interview(s)/callback(s)? Or are you supposed to take advantage of the window between your summer job and OCI? I am doing a 1L SA and can't imagine taking a day off for interviews. Thanks

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sun May 20, 2018 10:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If you mass mail, are you expected to take a day off from your 1L summer job to do the interview(s)/callback(s)? Or are you supposed to take advantage of the window between your summer job and OCI? I am doing a 1L SA and can't imagine taking a day off for interviews. Thanks


You say you have an appointment. simple.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 21, 2018 10:10 am

Top 15% at a strong T1 in the market I want to practice. Should I wait for all spring grades to come in before I start mass mailing? Should I be mass mailing everywhere?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon May 21, 2018 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:Top 15% at a strong T1 in the market I want to practice. Should I wait for all spring grades to come in before I start mass mailing? Should I be mass mailing everywhere?


Yes, wait for grades then mass mail everywhere. Because you aren't at at t13, you are especially at risk. You need to mass mail every market. But you can get all your app materials ready, including various cover letters and stuff written so you can just input your grades and start mailing the moment they are out.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 21, 2018 12:16 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 15% at a strong T1 in the market I want to practice. Should I wait for all spring grades to come in before I start mass mailing? Should I be mass mailing everywhere?


Yes, wait for grades then mass mail everywhere. Because you aren't at at t13, you are especially at risk. You need to mass mail every market. But you can get all your app materials ready, including various cover letters and stuff written so you can just input your grades and start mailing the moment they are out.


Does it make a difference that both of my parents are Big Law partners with lots of contacts at other firms? My school sends 40% of the class to Big Law. Are things really as risky as you make them out to be?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon May 21, 2018 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Top 15% at a strong T1 in the market I want to practice. Should I wait for all spring grades to come in before I start mass mailing? Should I be mass mailing everywhere?


Yes, wait for grades then mass mail everywhere. Because you aren't at at t13, you are especially at risk. You need to mass mail every market. But you can get all your app materials ready, including various cover letters and stuff written so you can just input your grades and start mailing the moment they are out.


Does it make a difference that both of my parents are Big Law partners with lots of contacts at other firms? My school sends 40% of the class to Big Law. Are things really as risky as you make them out to be?


I mean maybe, but then you should speak to them to use their professional network to help you get a job. But just as a reminder for everyone reading, last year summer associateship positions were down 25% from the year before. That is a rather drastic decrease in size. Just something to keep in mind.

But as far as you specifically, you should just leverage your parents network and have a job lined up in June.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby hoos89 » Mon May 21, 2018 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


I would mail every major market that you'd reasonably consider working in and every other market that you have legit ties to and would consider working in. I wouldn't limit yourself just to your top choice markets without some particularly compelling reason, but I also probably wouldn't e-mail, say, Tampa or Memphis firms just for the sake of casting a wide net.

Make a spreadsheet with every firm you e-mailed, what office, who you e-mails, when you sent the e-mail, and whether you've heard back. Follow up every 2-3 weeks or so with firms that you haven't gotten a response from until you have an offer that you want. Try to find an excuse to follow up if you can (updating resume for your journal is a good one). Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview). Also, if it's later in the process you can try to churn up a few extra interviews by e-mailing/calling recruiters in a city farther from your school and letting them know you'll "be in the area" for [made up reason] on X date. It'll mean they won't reimburse your travel though so beware of that (don't buy non-refundable plane tickets until you've locked up an interview).

Also for multi-office firms I recommend picking one office per unique recruiter to apply to. So if NALP lists Recruiter 1 as the NYC office recruiting contact and Recruiter 2 for Chicago and St. Louis, I'd apply to NYC and either Chicago or St. Louis. Also I'd generally err on the side of picking larger offices where you need to choose (don't apply to some 5 person outpost with no summer classes over a 200 person office). My feeling when going through the process was that most firms didn't really seem to have a lot of interoffice communication about applications prior to the interview stage. The applying to multiple offices thing only seemed to be a major issue with Latham (although I'll note that I would be more careful about this if you're focusing on a smaller/more insular market).

I think one of the most important things about this process is to not assume you're going to get an offer until you have one. Don't get picky until you have an offer in hand.

(Edited the multi-office recommendation)
Last edited by hoos89 on Mon May 21, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon May 21, 2018 6:01 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


I would mail every major market that you'd reasonably consider working in and every other market that you have legit ties to and would consider working in. I wouldn't limit yourself just to your top choice markets without some particularly compelling reason, but I also probably wouldn't e-mail, say, Tampa or Memphis firms just for the sake of casting a wide net. Also for multi-office firms I recommend picking one office to apply to (and make sure the one office you apply to isn't some 5 attorney outpost that doesn't have summer classes).

Make a spreadsheet with every firm you e-mailed, what office, when you sent the e-mail, and whether you've heard back. Follow up every 2-3 weeks or so with firms that you haven't gotten a response from until you have an offer that you want. Try to find an excuse to follow up if you can (updating resume for your journal is a good one). Also, if it's later in the process you can try to churn up a few extra interviews by e-mailing/calling recruiters in a city farther from your school and letting them know you'll "be in the area" for [made up reason] on X date. It'll mean they won't reimburse your travel though so beware of that (don't buy non-refundable plane tickets until you've locked up an interview). Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview).

I think one of the most important things about this process is to not assume you're going to get an offer until you have one. Don't get picky until you have an offer in hand.


This is spot on. Apply to all the major markets and any markets you have ties to. Also, networking with alumni is a great way to get an offer. The firm I summered at was only made possible because I cold-emailed a lot of alumnis asking to talk on the phone or meet for coffee (if it was within the city I was in) to talk about their firms. I had about a 10% rate of meeting/calls to interviews. If they like you, they can push your resume with HR and recruiting to the top of a pile.

The best advice is to get all your app materials ready to be mailed the day grades come out. Make those spreadsheets! Also, start emailing alums from your school who work at these firms and ask to meet/call and talk about their firm and practice. When I did this a few years ago, my June was spent networking and preparing apps. Once I got grades mid June, I mass mailed and continued to network. By early July, I had 3 offers.

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby carsondalywashere » Tue May 22, 2018 9:45 am

sparkytrainer wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


I would mail every major market that you'd reasonably consider working in and every other market that you have legit ties to and would consider working in. I wouldn't limit yourself just to your top choice markets without some particularly compelling reason, but I also probably wouldn't e-mail, say, Tampa or Memphis firms just for the sake of casting a wide net. Also for multi-office firms I recommend picking one office to apply to (and make sure the one office you apply to isn't some 5 attorney outpost that doesn't have summer classes).

Make a spreadsheet with every firm you e-mailed, what office, when you sent the e-mail, and whether you've heard back. Follow up every 2-3 weeks or so with firms that you haven't gotten a response from until you have an offer that you want. Try to find an excuse to follow up if you can (updating resume for your journal is a good one). Also, if it's later in the process you can try to churn up a few extra interviews by e-mailing/calling recruiters in a city farther from your school and letting them know you'll "be in the area" for [made up reason] on X date. It'll mean they won't reimburse your travel though so beware of that (don't buy non-refundable plane tickets until you've locked up an interview). Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview).

I think one of the most important things about this process is to not assume you're going to get an offer until you have one. Don't get picky until you have an offer in hand.


This is spot on. Apply to all the major markets and any markets you have ties to. Also, networking with alumni is a great way to get an offer. The firm I summered at was only made possible because I cold-emailed a lot of alumnis asking to talk on the phone or meet for coffee (if it was within the city I was in) to talk about their firms. I had about a 10% rate of meeting/calls to interviews. If they like you, they can push your resume with HR and recruiting to the top of a pile.

The best advice is to get all your app materials ready to be mailed the day grades come out. Make those spreadsheets! Also, start emailing alums from your school who work at these firms and ask to meet/call and talk about their firm and practice. When I did this a few years ago, my June was spent networking and preparing apps. Once I got grades mid June, I mass mailed and continued to network. By early July, I had 3 offers.


Awesome advice, thanks! Last question, though it seems very minor - just started my summer job, so won't be able to talk about it much in my cover letter; I assume that's okay?

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Fletch23 » Tue May 22, 2018 11:18 am

sparkytrainer wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


I would mail every major market that you'd reasonably consider working in and every other market that you have legit ties to and would consider working in. I wouldn't limit yourself just to your top choice markets without some particularly compelling reason, but I also probably wouldn't e-mail, say, Tampa or Memphis firms just for the sake of casting a wide net. Also for multi-office firms I recommend picking one office to apply to (and make sure the one office you apply to isn't some 5 attorney outpost that doesn't have summer classes).

Make a spreadsheet with every firm you e-mailed, what office, when you sent the e-mail, and whether you've heard back. Follow up every 2-3 weeks or so with firms that you haven't gotten a response from until you have an offer that you want. Try to find an excuse to follow up if you can (updating resume for your journal is a good one). Also, if it's later in the process you can try to churn up a few extra interviews by e-mailing/calling recruiters in a city farther from your school and letting them know you'll "be in the area" for [made up reason] on X date. It'll mean they won't reimburse your travel though so beware of that (don't buy non-refundable plane tickets until you've locked up an interview). Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview).

I think one of the most important things about this process is to not assume you're going to get an offer until you have one. Don't get picky until you have an offer in hand.


This is spot on. Apply to all the major markets and any markets you have ties to. Also, networking with alumni is a great way to get an offer. The firm I summered at was only made possible because I cold-emailed a lot of alumnis asking to talk on the phone or meet for coffee (if it was within the city I was in) to talk about their firms. I had about a 10% rate of meeting/calls to interviews. If they like you, they can push your resume with HR and recruiting to the top of a pile.

The best advice is to get all your app materials ready to be mailed the day grades come out. Make those spreadsheets! Also, start emailing alums from your school who work at these firms and ask to meet/call and talk about their firm and practice. When I did this a few years ago, my June was spent networking and preparing apps. Once I got grades mid June, I mass mailed and continued to network. By early July, I had 3 offers.



When cold-emailing alumni, would you suggest reaching out to associates or partners to get the ball rolling?

sparkytrainer

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue May 22, 2018 11:24 am

Fletch23 wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


I would mail every major market that you'd reasonably consider working in and every other market that you have legit ties to and would consider working in. I wouldn't limit yourself just to your top choice markets without some particularly compelling reason, but I also probably wouldn't e-mail, say, Tampa or Memphis firms just for the sake of casting a wide net. Also for multi-office firms I recommend picking one office to apply to (and make sure the one office you apply to isn't some 5 attorney outpost that doesn't have summer classes).

Make a spreadsheet with every firm you e-mailed, what office, when you sent the e-mail, and whether you've heard back. Follow up every 2-3 weeks or so with firms that you haven't gotten a response from until you have an offer that you want. Try to find an excuse to follow up if you can (updating resume for your journal is a good one). Also, if it's later in the process you can try to churn up a few extra interviews by e-mailing/calling recruiters in a city farther from your school and letting them know you'll "be in the area" for [made up reason] on X date. It'll mean they won't reimburse your travel though so beware of that (don't buy non-refundable plane tickets until you've locked up an interview). Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview).

I think one of the most important things about this process is to not assume you're going to get an offer until you have one. Don't get picky until you have an offer in hand.


This is spot on. Apply to all the major markets and any markets you have ties to. Also, networking with alumni is a great way to get an offer. The firm I summered at was only made possible because I cold-emailed a lot of alumnis asking to talk on the phone or meet for coffee (if it was within the city I was in) to talk about their firms. I had about a 10% rate of meeting/calls to interviews. If they like you, they can push your resume with HR and recruiting to the top of a pile.

The best advice is to get all your app materials ready to be mailed the day grades come out. Make those spreadsheets! Also, start emailing alums from your school who work at these firms and ask to meet/call and talk about their firm and practice. When I did this a few years ago, my June was spent networking and preparing apps. Once I got grades mid June, I mass mailed and continued to network. By early July, I had 3 offers.



When cold-emailing alumni, would you suggest reaching out to associates or partners to get the ball rolling?


Both. You will likely learn more and get more responses from associates, but clicking with a partner can be a huge plus in getting you out of the resume pile faster. I had a much higher success rate of responses from associates than partners, but the partners I did speak with all were super helpful. I would do both. Even if its at the same firm, dont feel weird about emailing a partner and associate. It will likely be the case you will only get to speak to one of them anyway.

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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2018 12:42 pm

For the record, Chicago firms do not really do pre-OCI, correct?

sparkytrainer

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Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue May 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For the record, Chicago firms do not really do pre-OCI, correct?


For the record, almost every market is moving to pre-oci. It may not be at the same level of DC, but I know multiple people over the past 2-3 years that got Chicago offers pre-oci. It is in your best interest to mass mail and do as much pre-oci as possible for EACH market because firms are really figuring out how beneficial this whole thing is for them.

Anonymous User
Posts: 314096
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2018 1:03 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For the record, Chicago firms do not really do pre-OCI, correct?


For the record, almost every market is moving to pre-oci. It may not be at the same level of DC, but I know multiple people over the past 2-3 years that got Chicago offers pre-oci. It is in your best interest to mass mail and do as much pre-oci as possible for EACH market because firms are really figuring out how beneficial this whole thing is for them.

So don't listen to career services? I believe in the TLS hivemind, but they keep telling me pre-OCI is only for the best candidates and NYC firms/don't mail firms coming to OCI because they might ding you before you get to interview...

carsondalywashere

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Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:33 pm

Re: When should rising 2Ls start mass mailing target markets?

Postby carsondalywashere » Tue May 22, 2018 1:14 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:Should median applicants mass mail? Should we only mass mail firms/markets that aren't at OCI?


I was median. I only got DC because I hustled my ASS off pre-oci. A lot of kids with better grades than I didn't get DC because they waited to OCI.

You should mass mail every possible city. Every market is moving to pre-oci. It makes sense from their perspective- OCI is expensive, especially at t13 schools with pure lottery OCIs. Now, they can get the applicants BEFORE oci, get them interviewed, do callbacks, and make offers all without having to pay for their attorneys to travel and loss billable hours interviewing random students at t13 law schools.

You should mass mail and mass mail some more. Network too, especially if you are in a city. But once grades hit, know that your classmates will be doing it with or without you. And offers and classes will start filling up, especially in hard to get cities like DC starting at the end of June.

Speaking from experience, if I didn't get my pre-oci offers, I would have struck out. Truthfully.

I was only planning on applying to New York, Chicago (my school's city), and my home market. Would this not be sufficient? Should I truly be mailing every conceivable market? Won't some firms see you're applying to many of their locations and think my search is unfocused?

Also, my career adviser told me median applicants should not apply to firms they want to speak with at OCI because they will be rejected before they get a chance to meet in-person. Is this true? Or would a firm that is coming to OCI simply tell me they are coming to OCI and will look at my application then?


Another good way to land a few extra interviews is to e-mail alumni at firms and ask them if they'd be interested in talking about their firm (let them know you recently applied and attach your resume). Don't outright ask for an interview though...they'll typically let recruiting know you called and this can help get your resume into the smaller pile (I once had a partner at a firm just forward the e-mail to recruiting and tell them to set up an interview).



Actually, one more question; what about with alums I already have spoken with? Can I send them my resume and ask who I should send it to? Is there a more tactful way of attaching a resume in that situation?



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