K-JD first job ever is at big law firm Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,


I'm a K-JD. I've never had any job before and I am joining a NYC v10 this fall. I did some internships in college but they are more in the line of TA/ researcher; and during law school the internship experience and unpaid nature itself makes it more of an experience as opposed to a job. I summered at a v50, which still, was a lot of networking and events and not that much work going on. Also it was a bigger class and all I did was being normal and have a nice attitude. I'm concerned that as someone who just does not understand/ know for a fact how professional life looks like in reality, what can I do? I oftentimes feel like a kid around people and i honesty am feeling increasing pressure of maturity/ adulthood in a v10. My personality itself isn't super mature, I'm sociable and outgoing, but I'm a 22 year old having no clue how real work is like beside watching the good wife. Yes I started law school at a young age. To make things worse, I never summered at my v10 as i was a 3L hire.

If I'm serious about staying at my v10 for the long term as I'm not interested in other jobs (don't want in-house, don't want feds). I'm just asking for advice here from similar k-jds maybe. If other people can relate to what I'm feeling right now, feel free to chime in and give feedback. I might not even know the corporate jargon/ professional etiquette to give to constituents in a law firm, such as how to ask for stuff from super senior paralegal, ask for stuff from partners, made mistakes, ask for help....etc.

I know how to work hard, and I'm not weak dainty flowers, asking for serious office / firm etiquette and advice here.

[s1m4]

I don't think its a bad thing for your success per se. I worked some hospitality and random corporate jobs prior to law school/biglaw and it just made me realize how unnormally stressful and horrible biglaw is, making me more prone to push back on assignments and generally more lazy to pull all nighters or wake up early which long term may have had a negative effect on my brand within the firm.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks for the reply. What about the common sense that I lack on being a worker in general? Like treating co-works, basic social intelligence. I think there might be a difference between EQ in getting friends and EQ in working in general. I know this question is general as fuck. Do those self-help book work?

[crouton62]

With partners and other senior lawyers, an attitude of respectful deference and showing an eagerness to be helpful and to learn will get you pretty far. Starting out, the big thing for a stub/first year work-wise is to not miss a deadline unless you clear it in advance

With peers, just be yourself--relationships will evolve at work as they do in life in general, and you will learn who you can express more of your personality around and who you need be more buttoned up around. The associate ranks at law firms are like high school (or law school) in that gossip abounds. Be careful with that. Assume that anyone who would talk shit about others to you would also talk shit about you to others. Don't get caught up in that and become a gossip king/queen of your class.

Pro tip, beyond just being a decent human and treating admins with respect and courtesy as you would anyone else, make a special effort get to know the admins of the partners from whom you work. Especially if they have been together for a while, it's my experience that admins' opinions of people carry a lot of weight with their partners.

Good luck!

[ruski]

agree its probably better you have nothing to compare to, b/c then you realize how crazy this environment is. we get paid a lot of money, so late nights, fire drills etc are expected, but there are some partners that are just legit crazy. making low six figures in nyc is not an excuse to be a complete ass to an associate. as an example, 2 months into job, I get a phone call on my cell on a Friday evening from a partner who found some mistake, assumed it was me, and proceeded to yell and ream me out. I tried explaining it wasn't me, and she flat out said I don't believe you. stuff like this is not normal.

in terms of getting used to office protocol, there isn't much to learn. just be normal. when in doubt, ask your secretary or a fellow junior (preferably someone a class above you).

[jjjetplane]

I don't think its a bad thing for your success per se. I worked some hospitality and random corporate jobs prior to law school/biglaw and it just made me realize how unnormally stressful and horrible biglaw is, making me more prone to push back on assignments and generally more lazy to pull all nighters or wake up early which long term may have had a negative effect on my brand within the firm.

a thousand times this. if you've worked jobs previously, you know that you're being subjected to unreasonable demands and you're more prone to push back. although your goals may vary from mine, I've found that being able to set boundaries makes for a healthier life (but that may not put you on partner track, if that's what you're after).

[mino]

One thing I think it's easy to fall into as a K-JD (and several others have alluded to this) is that you don't really know what it's like to work anywhere else. There are pros and cons to that. You don't have a frame of reference for the levels of anxiety, stress, hours, level of stimulation in the work, etc., that you may otherwise have. On the one hand, this could mean that you don't have a "grass is greener" complex knowing what it's like somewhere else. On the other, you may not fully appreciate the other opportunities that are out there.

As you think about your path in your career, I'd encourage you to very consciously and proactively investigate what different opportunities look like, both within the firm and outside of it. Having the mental flexibility to think about a different practice area, working with different partners, or leaving the firm for in-house or something else, I think, will be a useful skill over time for you. If you find yourself not excelling when you first get there, think about whether there's another path for you at the firm - maybe you're in a practice area you don't find stimulating, or you realize that you actually are far more productive when you have a smaller face time requirement than is acceptable in your current role. I think that we're all susceptible to sticking with the status quo, wherever we end up, and I think that that's just a little more likely to happen when you don't have prior work experience to use as a reference point to your current situation. If you do excel where you end up and you love it, that's awesome. But if you don't, proactively look into what else is out there and don't accept your status quo as the norm.

TL;DR: It's easy to think the status quo is the norm or your best way of working. It may not be. Proactively cross-check your status quo with others to see where you think you'll really succeed.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, thanks. When I summered at the v50, there was this senior paralegal who assigned work to me as a summer. I didn't respond to it and just thought the paralegal does not have the authority to assign her doc review work to me. That was not received well but I got an offer regardless. Is that something indicative of my lack of common sense in terms of sensing firm hierarchy/ treating admin people/ co-workers? Also I know I'm not supposed to gossip, but the comment on how the experience resembles high school concerns me: does that mean people get cliquey?.. I'm in a huge class and there are tons of junior people in my group. There also is a lot of work. What are some of the best ways to find friends/help /identify the senior associates who I get along with and can provide mentoring-ish guidance?

[Lacepiece23]

OP here, thanks. When I summered at the v50, there was this senior paralegal who assigned work to me as a summer. I didn't respond to it and just thought the paralegal does not have the authority to assign her doc review work to me. That was not received well but I got an offer regardless. Is that something indicative of my lack of common sense in terms of sensing firm hierarchy/ treating admin people/ co-workers? Also I know I'm not supposed to gossip, but the comment on how the experience resembles high school concerns me: does that mean people get cliquey?.. I'm in a huge class and there are tons of junior people in my group. There also is a lot of work. What are some of the best ways to find friends/help /identify the senior associates who I get along with and can provide mentoring-ish guidance?

Yeah, I could see why that wasn't received well. You were a summer. You are definitely the lowest on the total pole to everyone, practice assistants and paralegals included. You should have just sucked it up and done it for a senior paralegal. Or, if it was really unreasonable, spoke with a mentor or someone you trust.

Just try to treat everyone like they are people, even thought here is a hierarchy in law. If an assistant has been there for 20 years, and she tells you to do something small, you should probably do it until you get more senior. Pushing back in a 10-week interview was probably not the right call. My best advice, be humble.

[ruski]

I think your mistake was ignoring the paralegal. im not so convinced a summer needs to listen to a paralegal, but the better approach would have been to reply and say something along the lines you are too swamped to do it. that way you aren't working for the paralegal and set your boundaries, and the paralegal doesn't have a legitimate complaint against you (because hey maybe you are swamped). but if you ignore it, the paralegal thinks you are working on something you are not, and then it never gets done and that is a problem

[Anonymous User]

OP here: thx for the input. I did not know turning off work from paralegal would be interpreted as inappropriate, that is what concerns me. If this is a common sense, then I don't have that. So let me ask basic question and let everyone know how completely lack of basic common sense i am.

1. beside gossip, what are some of the sensitive information one may want to keep to oneself, among peers. think interaction with more senior people in the group..? the stuff I'm working on...? I know to not be that gunner that talks about hours/ bonus all the time, at least not to be a gunner.

2. when you are a working associate at a firm event, and there are group leaders in the room with clients and other professionals. Ok to talk to them? or generally, if I'm genuinely interested in one person, how casual do I maintain the chit-chat, or they just flat-out dont have the time for me?

3. What do you do when you panic at work, how to ask questions from peers/ more senior people?

[Anonymous User]

Here's my two cents about success in any job, but particularly in a hierarchy like a law firm:

Communicate and manage up.

You're going to get a lot of projects where you don't know where to start. That's ok. Be smart about who to ask (e.g., ask the mid-level associate, not the lead partner, if possible), and how to ask (e.g., ask early, don't expect them to drop everything to come help you). But, of course, first try to help yourself: can you find a template from a past matter to work off of?

You're going to get a project that takes twice as long as the assigning person thinks. When you get the assignment, ask when it's due. Or, if there isn't a firm deadline, propose a deadline (e.g., "I'll try to get you a draft by the end of the day on Thursday..."). If you need more time, that's ok, but let them know as soon as you know.

Eventually, you're going to know more about the logistics of the case/deal than the people above you, since you'll be much more in the details of the case. Don't be afraid to speak up if you think the people above you forgot something or need to be reminded (e.g., "Hey Partner, just a reminder to get us comments on that brief by Thursday, since we need to file it on Friday."). If you see something, say something. But also, propose a solution ("I noticed that our brief is due on Friday. Should I put together an outline for you to review by Tuesday?").

TL;DR: A lot of junior associates stress themselves out unnecessarily because they don't communicate. Don't do that.

[qxfr]

General first corporate job stuff:

If you have questions (you will), you should definitely feel free to ask them to more senior associates or even partners that you are working with, however

• consolidate your questions so you don't waste people's time - much better to call at 5pm with 5 questions than to ask 5 one-offs throughout the day,
• spend at least 5 minutes trying to answer your own question by asking classmates, googling, checking the firm intranet, looking at a precedent, just thinking about it, whatever, before asking someone more senior - there are dumb questions, and those are the ones you could have answered yourself if you had bothered to try. The corollary is, even if you are genuinely stumped by something, demonstrate to the more senior person that you've tried and explain how far you've got - that is really appreciated, even if you are completely off base

Do your work on time, don't procrastinate (unless you know you'll get away with it, and as a first year, you won't know), communicate if you might miss deadlines and if there's anything you need to know to complete the assignment, make sure you ask well in advance

Be available. I don't know what the expectations for availability are at your firm, but whatever they are, try to exceed them for a while at least.

Pay attention to detail:

• Work is never mistake-free but you should definitely check things more than you think you need to, and take extra special care with the most visible parts - cover pages, section headings, spelling your client's name correctly, spelling your own firm's name correctly, and so on.
• Know the facts of your case/deal/whatever. You will often be closer to the facts than anyone else on the project, and if you are paying attention it is an opportunity to add value.

Be invested in the success of your project. If you were going to get paid $1,000,000 if the deal closed or case won at trial, what would you be doing? You'd probably pitch in any chance you got. If you had ideas for how to make things better, you'd speak up. What you wouldn't do is just do "your job" and wait to receive further instructions - you'd be moving things along, asking how you could contribute, and trying your best to make your project a success. Do that - senior folks will love it, and it's surprisingly rare in first years

Law specific stuff:

Most biglaw firms are not cultures of feedback. If you do something badly, you probably won't ever know. You can ask for feedback (in theory - everyone says to do this, but no one's ever asked me for feedback, and when I've asked for feedback it's usually pretty generic), but really you should just be hyper-sensitive to how you think you're doing, because most people who work with you will just judge you silently and then, if they don't like you, try not to work with you any more.

Figure out your firm's house style and make sure to use it. Nothing worse than having an italicized comma circled in red pen by a partner.

Spend the first few weeks making sure you know how to use all of the relevant firm services - document processing, car service, proofreading, paralegals, whatever it is. At some point you'll be asked to use one of them on an urgent basis and if you don't know how to do it, you might not realize that you have to ask for a paralegal before 5:30pm because that's when the paralegal manager goes home, or something like that.

Learn how to use all the technology. Don't be the first year who asks a senior associate how to run a changed page redline.

[Anonymous User]

OP here: thx for the input. I did not know turning off work from paralegal would be interpreted as inappropriate, that is what concerns me. If this is a common sense, then I don't have that.

Everyone on a case or deal is on a team. If someone asks you for help with something, you should help out unless you are unable to because you are busy. It doesn't matter whether you "outrank" someone. The best way to make sure you only have to do good work is to do an awesome job on everything you can, and eventually you'll have your hands too full with more senior work to be reviewing documents at the behest of a paralegal.

3. What do you do when you panic at work, how to ask questions from peers/ more senior people?

just remind yourself that no one is going to die, and your case/deal is probably not going to be affected, if you mess up whatever you're doing*. Take a deep breath, and if you don't know what to do, ask someone else. Make sure you've done whatever you can before you ask for help, and no one will mind.

* unless you do this: https://abovethelaw.com/2015/01/mayer-b ... c-screwup/

edit: didn't mean to make this anonymous, I'm the same poster as the one above

[Anonymous User]

My advice as a first year corporate associate is always double and triple check your numbers. Do an active check while putting numbers in. Then look through and check again that the numbers were right cross-referenced to your list. Then once you close it out, open it up and look again. It’s a pretty easy mistake to make when you’re filling in a whole bunch of them, can’t tell you the number of close calls I’ve had here. You don’t want to be the person who used the wrong row in excel when filling it in into an agreement and now your client just gave somebody who was only supposed to get $300K of equity $2 million instead. Hopefully someone will check it if you do but that’s a really quick way for people to lose all faith in you and not want to work with you. It’s also worse the farther along it goes. Good chance a senior associate will miss it since they’re gonna assume you can populate numbers correctly and aren’t looking all that carefully at the numbers when reviewing.

[RaceJudicata]

The office dynamics of your v50 will be more or less the same as the v10. If anything, probably easier to blend in at v10. Just be normal and eager; will be fine.

[Anonymous User]

OP here:
thanks for the general feedback, my concern was also potentionally showing a lack of maturity that might come off at work that might be perceived as unreliable and just, plain unfit so people don't want to work with me. I mean, I only know school for christ sake.