NYC to 200k

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NakedPowerOrgan

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby NakedPowerOrgan » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on this rationale, it seems HB has no chance of matching...
Haynes Boone (approx. $0.957M PPP, 1.84 EP:Assoc. leverage)

Anonymous User wrote:
NakedPowerOrgan wrote:Some fun facts, maybe useful to law students during OCI:

$1.4 million PPP seems to be around the sweet spot for where it becomes likely that you'll at least see a raise when the market moves. 90 percent of firms in the AmLaw 200 with over $1.36 million PPP have matched salary raises. 85 percent of AmLaw 200 firms at or below that mark have not announced salary matches or have announced they will not match. Zero firms below $1.28 million PPP have announced salary raises and bonuses.

Nearly all firms (approx. 90 percent) above $2.0 million PPP have announced matches to both bonuses and raises. Boies not announcing yet and Cooley denying summer bonuses are the two most prominent exceptions in that group.

Roughly $1.4 million to $2 million PPP seems to be where it gets interesting. Around 75 percent of firms in that range have matched salaries but around half of those firms have refused to supplement those raises with bonuses.


This is a very useful post.


TK has below 1.28M PPP and announced full salary match and bonuses (though bonuses were tied to hours/productivity). Will be interested to see how HB responds. In Texas, if V&E does something, BB has to respond. But then after that, it seems like HB, TK, Fulbright, Bracewell, Locke and Hunton/AK are sort of in the same group in that they don't necessarily have to do what V&E/BB do, but if a majority of that group does something, it seems like the rest have to fall in line. So now that Fulbright and TK have taken very different approaches, will be interesting to see how the respond.


I should have clarified. I only looked at AmLaw 200 firms with PPP above $1MM, so while there have been no AmLaw 200 firms with PPP between $1MM and $1.28MM to match raises and bonuses, there may be firms not in the AmLaw 200 or firms in the AmLaw 200 but with PPP lower than $1MM (like TK) that have matched.

Good for TK for matching salaries for all U.S. associates and giving summer bonuses, when the same can’t be said for cheapskate firms like Cooley, Alston & Bird, and Sheppard Mullin, which each have almost double TK’s PPP.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:52 pm

NakedPowerOrgan wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on this rationale, it seems HB has no chance of matching...
Haynes Boone (approx. $0.957M PPP, 1.84 EP:Assoc. leverage)

Anonymous User wrote:
NakedPowerOrgan wrote:Some fun facts, maybe useful to law students during OCI:

$1.4 million PPP seems to be around the sweet spot for where it becomes likely that you'll at least see a raise when the market moves. 90 percent of firms in the AmLaw 200 with over $1.36 million PPP have matched salary raises. 85 percent of AmLaw 200 firms at or below that mark have not announced salary matches or have announced they will not match. Zero firms below $1.28 million PPP have announced salary raises and bonuses.

Nearly all firms (approx. 90 percent) above $2.0 million PPP have announced matches to both bonuses and raises. Boies not announcing yet and Cooley denying summer bonuses are the two most prominent exceptions in that group.

Roughly $1.4 million to $2 million PPP seems to be where it gets interesting. Around 75 percent of firms in that range have matched salaries but around half of those firms have refused to supplement those raises with bonuses.


This is a very useful post.


TK has below 1.28M PPP and announced full salary match and bonuses (though bonuses were tied to hours/productivity). Will be interested to see how HB responds. In Texas, if V&E does something, BB has to respond. But then after that, it seems like HB, TK, Fulbright, Bracewell, Locke and Hunton/AK are sort of in the same group in that they don't necessarily have to do what V&E/BB do, but if a majority of that group does something, it seems like the rest have to fall in line. So now that Fulbright and TK have taken very different approaches, will be interesting to see how the respond.


I should have clarified. I only looked at AmLaw 200 firms with PPP above $1MM, so while there have been no AmLaw 200 firms with PPP between $1MM and $1.28MM to match raises and bonuses, there may be firms not in the AmLaw 200 or firms in the AmLaw 200 but with PPP lower than $1MM (like TK) that have matched.

Good for TK for matching salaries for all U.S. associates and giving summer bonuses, when the same can’t be said for cheapskate firms like Cooley, Alston & Bird, and Sheppard Mullin, which each have almost double TK’s PPP.


You are doing God's work, sir. Also, Atlanta firms need to get it together.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:anyone have an update on progress at BSF?


bump

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:52 pm

So Kasowitz upping the scale by $5k for all class years...

Do they typically pay above market? I assume they will just sit as an outlier above market, and their raise will not actually affect the Milbank/STB/Cravath scale.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So Kasowitz upping the scale by $5k for all class years...

Do they typically pay above market? I assume they will just sit as an outlier above market, and their raise will not actually affect the Milbank/STB/Cravath scale.


No. They didn't pay bonuses so total comp will be less this year. That said, I think base salary is an issue that looms larger in recruiting (outside of firms who have established a track record of above-market bonuses), so I highly doubt Kasowitz will sit at the top of the pile for long.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So Kasowitz upping the scale by $5k for all class years...

Do they typically pay above market? I assume they will just sit as an outlier above market, and their raise will not actually affect the Milbank/STB/Cravath scale.


No. They didn't pay bonuses so total comp will be less this year. That said, I think base salary is an issue that looms larger in recruiting (outside of firms who have established a track record of above-market bonuses), so I highly doubt Kasowitz will sit at the top of the pile for long.


I agree with you that the bonuses not being paid out makes this less of a truly "above market" firm. But, if you're a 1st or 2nd year only making $5k-7.5k in summer bonus anyway, and will be at your firm for at least 2 more years, you probably still come out ahead on the Kasowitz scale, even factoring in time value of money.

Stay 3 years at the firm and you're safely ahead at Kasowitz, UNLESS firms continue to do summer bonuses (seems unlikely) and Kasowitz continues not to do summer bonuses.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So Kasowitz upping the scale by $5k for all class years...

Do they typically pay above market? I assume they will just sit as an outlier above market, and their raise will not actually affect the Milbank/STB/Cravath scale.


No. They didn't pay bonuses so total comp will be less this year. That said, I think base salary is an issue that looms larger in recruiting (outside of firms who have established a track record of above-market bonuses), so I highly doubt Kasowitz will sit at the top of the pile for long.


I agree with you that the bonuses not being paid out makes this less of a truly "above market" firm. But, if you're a 1st or 2nd year only making $5k-7.5k in summer bonus anyway, and will be at your firm for at least 2 more years, you probably still come out ahead on the Kasowitz scale, even factoring in time value of money.

Stay 3 years at the firm and you're safely ahead at Kasowitz, UNLESS firms continue to do summer bonuses (seems unlikely) and Kasowitz continues not to do summer bonuses.


Quoted Anon. I agree. That's why I was saying base comp is more important in recruiting. I meant to suggest that I believe firms will match. Sorry if unclear

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So Kasowitz upping the scale by $5k for all class years...

Do they typically pay above market? I assume they will just sit as an outlier above market, and their raise will not actually affect the Milbank/STB/Cravath scale.


No. They didn't pay bonuses so total comp will be less this year. That said, I think base salary is an issue that looms larger in recruiting (outside of firms who have established a track record of above-market bonuses), so I highly doubt Kasowitz will sit at the top of the pile for long.


I agree with you that the bonuses not being paid out makes this less of a truly "above market" firm. But, if you're a 1st or 2nd year only making $5k-7.5k in summer bonus anyway, and will be at your firm for at least 2 more years, you probably still come out ahead on the Kasowitz scale, even factoring in time value of money.

Stay 3 years at the firm and you're safely ahead at Kasowitz, UNLESS firms continue to do summer bonuses (seems unlikely) and Kasowitz continues not to do summer bonuses.


Lit is red hot right now. Kasowitz is reflecting that. Its also why I have some hope that Boies will (eventually, belatedly) boost salaries back above market

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:25 pm

I agree that this is a weird and interesting move by Kasowitz. Although I'd love for the rest to match, I tend to think that the way this plays out is everyone says, "If $3K post-tax tips you to Kasowitz over STB/DPW/CSM, fine, go." Then, over time, gradually Kasowitz starts paying under-market bonuses and says, "Hey, our bases are higher, so this is even." Note that it's only Kasowitz NY. I doubt this drives another round of matches.

Maybe if Boies matched Kasowitz nationally, we'd see another round of raises.

Would love for someone to tell me why I'm wrong, tho.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 pm

NYC TO 195!!! IT'S TIME TO RIOT FOLKS

Stop coming up with these TTT loser reasons why no one's going to match Kasowitz and start lobbying and dialing numbers.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I agree that this is a weird and interesting move by Kasowitz. Although I'd love for the rest to match, I tend to think that the way this plays out is everyone says, "If $3K post-tax tips you to Kasowitz over STB/DPW/CSM, fine, go." Then, over time, gradually Kasowitz starts paying under-market bonuses and says, "Hey, our bases are higher, so this is even." Note that it's only Kasowitz NY. I doubt this drives another round of matches.

Maybe if Boies matched Kasowitz nationally, we'd see another round of raises.

Would love for someone to tell me why I'm wrong, tho.


would love for someone to explain how Boies hasn't raised yet

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm

What you're saying is obviously a possible outcome, but I have trouble imagining that's how it works out. Even if STB/DPW/CSM don't feel they have to compete, some firms will feel they have to, and that can cascade up the ladder. While firms might try to sell on total comp, absent a couple years of bonuses to go off of after this new pay structure, that would not go very far with me, particularly if i were a 2L going through OCI (and therefore unable to benefit from bonuses for at least a couple years), and particularly when plenty of Kasowitz's peers have hours requirements for bonuses. The guaranteed comp is king.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:FWIW, I worked for a super high ppp firm that cut corners on everything, including finding ways to deny comp. Both no bonus and holding people a year back in salary, but not necessarily billing rate. It happens, and it’s awful on the associate side.


Name the firm. You're anonymous.


Not OP but Fenwick also does this, and its arbitrary tier/level system virtually guarantees some people get held back a year. Bonuses are often below market too, so total comp easily falls $50-70k or more below market for mid-levels.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 pm

Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.

malibustacy

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby malibustacy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


It's their funeral.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:53 pm

malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


It's their funeral.


Idk. I work at a v50-100 firm. Took my firm a while to match 180 (more than a few months) because we have a lot of offices in non-major markets, so it took them a while to figure out the new scale for them. Not an excuse, but some of the v100 may run into that problem.

That aside, my firm still hasnt matched 190 in major markets. Fully expect them to in the next 4-6 months, but it sucks waiting. I imagine the same issue is happening again, i.e. how to do we the non-major market associates?

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.

that firm that pays 5k more than us? what a JOKE!

malibustacy

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby malibustacy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.


Very hot take.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:57 am

malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.


Very hot take.

+1

Why is Kasowitz a joke and who are the people who think it's a joke?

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby MaxMcMann » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.


What other BigLaw firms take Touro students?*

*true in at least one case

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deadpanic

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby deadpanic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.


Very hot take.

+1

Why is Kasowitz a joke and who are the people who think it's a joke?


I don't have a dog in this fight, but probably doesn't help that the founding & name partner acted like a total and incompetent ass for Trump for a good while, all while threatening several baseless lawsuits.

The revenue is also a lot lower than the traditional powerhouse white shoe Wall Street firms.There are Kansas City firms stylin' on Kasowitz's revenue.
Last edited by deadpanic on Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NYC to 200k

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
malibustacy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Man it's quiet. Is that a wrap on raises? I can't believe 30+ firms in the top 200 haven't moved yet. Even if it's not a full match, make some sort of move. These guys are going to get left in the dust come OCI.


Not to mention Kasowitz now pays more in guaranteed comp than the vast majority of these firms. One-time bonuses mean little at the lower levels where Kasowitz's higher base evens it out in total comp (and ultimately will exceed over time) I guess young associates are happy with a pat on the head from their "superior" firms. We'll see if 2Ls and 3Ls are as well.


No one at a white shoe v20 gives two shits if Kasowitz pays $5k above market


Yeah, I’ve spent 5+ years in biglaw and people generally see Kasowitz as kind of a joke. Beyond me why somebody would want to go work there. No associate or law student in their right mind would choose Kasowitz over DPW, STB, etc.


Very hot take.

+1

Why is Kasowitz a joke and who are the people who think it's a joke?



How else is someone who isn't actually remarkable supposed to feel superior?



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