Bottom of your law class

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:28 pm

I’m currently applying for mid level jobs. The recruiter I work with says he cannot send my resume to some firms because they have strict cutoffs... even 3-4 years out. I’m assuming some of this has to do with the fact that I’m using a recruiter and the firm wants to justify paying someone, but still. Some firms have 3.5 cutoffs

1styearlateral

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:Op here... I’m pretty much in the same boat. I’m at a mid-sized firm now. So is there no hope of moving to a bigger firm eventually?? What about big “regional” firms... will they always care about your grades?? Depressing...

No that's not what I'm saying. If you work in a specific area and see a ton of the same lawyers, they might invite you to join the firm when an opening pops up if they know you're good. I think the overall sentiment is that the more experience you gain the less important grades are, except for those few "unicorn" jobs such as AUSA, Wachtell, Cravath, etc. But plenty of shitty law students from no name schools go to large, amlaw 100 firms because people get to know them, they're likable, and they do their job well.

It also doesn't hurt if you have a sizable book of business (who's gonna turn down that over grades???).

Bottom line though, I think it's stupid to be "depressed" because you might not get the opportunity to work at a "big" firm. Plenty of midsized firms get the same work as biglaw firms because the quality of their work is exceptional and their rates are more reasonable. I'd be more focused on how to get out of the law firm ratrace, not further up the chain of misery.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:01 am

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But plenty of shitty law students from no name schools go to large, amlaw 100 firms because people get to know them, they're likable, and they do their job well.


I've noticed this as well. A fact never mentioned on TLS. But when I went to work, was surprised to see how many grads of second and third tier firms at big law firms. From the way some people portray it here, you'd think it was an impossibility.

1styearlateral

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But plenty of shitty law students from no name schools go to large, amlaw 100 firms because people get to know them, they're likable, and they do their job well.


I've noticed this as well. A fact never mentioned on TLS. But when I went to work, was surprised to see how many grads of second and third tier firms at big law firms. From the way some people portray it here, you'd think it was an impossibility.

It's not really mentioned because the possibility of moving from shitlaw to midlaw to biglaw is statistically improbable and would likely be construed by prospective law students to mean they can go anywhere, perform at median or below, and still have a solid chance of gainful employment. The move from small law/midlaw to biglaw generally involves some sort of specialty, a shit ton of hustling, and the alignment of solar systems. It happens, but not often enough to even consider it a realistic possibility.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:45 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But plenty of shitty law students from no name schools go to large, amlaw 100 firms because people get to know them, they're likable, and they do their job well.


I've noticed this as well. A fact never mentioned on TLS. But when I went to work, was surprised to see how many grads of second and third tier firms at big law firms. From the way some people portray it here, you'd think it was an impossibility.

It's not really mentioned because the possibility of moving from shitlaw to midlaw to biglaw is statistically improbable and would likely be construed by prospective law students to mean they can go anywhere, perform at median or below, and still have a solid chance of gainful employment. The move from small law/midlaw to biglaw generally involves some sort of specialty, a shit ton of hustling, and the alignment of solar systems. It happens, but not often enough to even consider it a realistic possibility.


That's really not much different than finance, banking, accounting, engineering, computer science, or medicine. But you don't see people on Blind app telling comp sci majors the impossibility of landing at Google or Dropbox. Despite the improbability.

1styearlateral

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:But plenty of shitty law students from no name schools go to large, amlaw 100 firms because people get to know them, they're likable, and they do their job well.


I've noticed this as well. A fact never mentioned on TLS. But when I went to work, was surprised to see how many grads of second and third tier firms at big law firms. From the way some people portray it here, you'd think it was an impossibility.

It's not really mentioned because the possibility of moving from shitlaw to midlaw to biglaw is statistically improbable and would likely be construed by prospective law students to mean they can go anywhere, perform at median or below, and still have a solid chance of gainful employment. The move from small law/midlaw to biglaw generally involves some sort of specialty, a shit ton of hustling, and the alignment of solar systems. It happens, but not often enough to even consider it a realistic possibility.


That's really not much different than finance, banking, accounting, engineering, computer science, or medicine. But you don't see people on Blind app telling comp sci majors the impossibility of landing at Google or Dropbox. Despite the improbability.

People in those professions don't have to spend three years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, though. There's more at stake, so I think the community is justifiably cynical to protect those who might make horrible choices premised on pipedreams, for lack of a better word. Also, law firms are obsessed with academic pedigree, whereas, IMO, tech companies and the like are more concerned with talent/abilities.

Lawworld19

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Lawworld19 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:53 pm

Im at the 50% mark in a lower tier state school in the midwest. Just accepted an offer for 70,000 with no billables in a very low cost of living area.

Just network and don't get hungup on ticky tacky stuff in regards to your resume. The firm never even looked at my grades btw.

sparty99

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby sparty99 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:I’m currently applying for mid level jobs. The recruiter I work with says he cannot send my resume to some firms because they have strict cutoffs... even 3-4 years out. I’m assuming some of this has to do with the fact that I’m using a recruiter and the firm wants to justify paying someone, but still. Some firms have 3.5 cutoffs


I was bottom 20% at a T30 and make six figures as a third year litigator. Firms still care about grades 3-4 years out and it is very competitive if you are a litigator and wish to lateral. If you work in a specialized area that might help as I at least landed an interview with a very prominent labor and employment firm because my resume said I have OSHA experience (although it was one shortproject so I didn't have that much). However, after a callback, I ultimately did not get the position.

I received all my big law lateral interviews (like 6 firms) by applying directly. Some recruiters were like, "hell no" I'm not working with you or they said they would not submit me. Others did not care, but even still, I never landed an interview at a big law firm using an executive recruiter. I can understand why you would want Big Law for the money, but don't act like its everything. Midlaw can be just as sastifying as you will have a life. For me, I would gladly take a Big Fed government job making $110,000 until I retire with a pension and 30 days vacation then working in midlaw or big law. However, I hardly see big fed government jobs in my market which is a top 5 city.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:27 am

sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: I can understand why you would want Big Law for the money, but don't act like its everything. Midlaw can be just as sastifying as you will have a life. For me, I would gladly take a Big Fed government job making $110,000 until I retire with a pension and 30 days vacation then working in midlaw or big law.


People here act like a big law firm and a $160,000 job is the end all be all. Small dreams, kinda sad really.

Big firm, small firm, they should like and be good at making money. If you make money, whatever firm you're at won't care.

The big firm partners people on TLS worship that critique the B they got in civil procedure, and walk around pretending like grades are everything, are on their knees kissing the ass of some Fortune 500 chief executive who barely graduated college, or desperately trying to get the attention and business of some college dropout startup founder. Hilarious.

tbaker757

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Re: BotItom of your law class

Postby tbaker757 » Tue May 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Bottom third of T50

Started a solo out of law school because of it was the best of a series of bad options or so I thought. I had not thought about this website in years until it popped up in a google search. Grades aren't nearly as important as people on this site think unless you are of course wedded to biglaw. But if you are wedded to money then there are other perhaps better options. I make six figures and it goes up every year. By year two I was making substantially more per hour worked than law school friends in big law. I suppose if they all make partner that will even out but I think I'd rather be able to spend some of my money. I also work for myself which is great. I have had midlaw offers which I have turned down primarily because of the freedom I have. Those offers had nothing to do with my grades or even what school I attended. Granted several things broke right for me but it can be done with a little bit of hard work and hustle. I remember distinctively being told on this site to dropout.

1styearlateral

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Re: BotItom of your law class

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue May 15, 2018 5:50 pm

tbaker757 wrote:Bottom third of T50

Started a solo out of law school because of it was the best of a series of bad options or so I thought. I had not thought about this website in years until it popped up in a google search. Grades aren't nearly as important as people on this site think unless you are of course wedded to biglaw. But if you are wedded to money then there are other perhaps better options. I make six figures and it goes up every year. By year two I was making substantially more per hour worked than law school friends in big law. I suppose if they all make partner that will even out but I think I'd rather be able to spend some of my money. I also work for myself which is great. I have had midlaw offers which I have turned down primarily because of the freedom I have. Those offers had nothing to do with my grades or even what school I attended. Granted several things broke right for me but it can be done with a little bit of hard work and hustle. I remember distinctively being told on this site to dropout.

Good to hear. Where are you getting your clientele?

minnbills

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby minnbills » Tue May 15, 2018 6:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
The big firm partners people on TLS worship that critique the B they got in civil procedure, and walk around pretending like grades are everything, are on their knees kissing the ass of some Fortune 500 chief executive who barely graduated college, or desperately trying to get the attention and business of some college dropout startup founder. Hilarious.


As opposed to smallaw practitioners who kiss the asses of just regular people? Or midlaw practitioners who kiss the asses of clients that can't afford bigger firms?

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deadpanic

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby deadpanic » Tue May 15, 2018 10:32 pm

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
The big firm partners people on TLS worship that critique the B they got in civil procedure, and walk around pretending like grades are everything, are on their knees kissing the ass of some Fortune 500 chief executive who barely graduated college, or desperately trying to get the attention and business of some college dropout startup founder. Hilarious.


As opposed to smallaw practitioners who kiss the asses of just regular people? Or midlaw practitioners who kiss the asses of clients that can't afford bigger firms?


The difference is small or solo practitioners can keep the client in line and tell him to stop being an idiot because it is completely his or her client and their business. Not all solos do that, but anyone worth their salt and with balls will because it is their practice. At BigLaw, an associate (who will never be a partner) has to kiss the ring for whatever this dipshit wants--then the firm gets sued when it turns out the client was running a ponzi scheme.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 16, 2018 11:51 am

minnbills wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
The big firm partners people on TLS worship that critique the B they got in civil procedure, and walk around pretending like grades are everything, are on their knees kissing the ass of some Fortune 500 chief executive who barely graduated college, or desperately trying to get the attention and business of some college dropout startup founder. Hilarious.


As opposed to smallaw practitioners who kiss the asses of just regular people? Or midlaw practitioners who kiss the asses of clients that can't afford bigger firms?


“Regular people” that have more assets and less financial liabilities than most of the people on TLS? :lol:

To add to deadpanic’s point, if one of my clients gets annoying or I’m happy with the work relationship, that’s easily fixable.

What do most TLSers do? Fantasize about telling their boss’s boss that he’s done with work with the firm’s client, then cry during their commute back home because they didn’t have the power to do it?

Or not even that, because they don’t ever get to actually ever meet a client, and instead just whine about the “stress” of grunt work on TLS?

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Re: BotItom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 16, 2018 12:59 pm

tbaker757 wrote:Bottom third of T50

Started a solo out of law school because of it was the best of a series of bad options or so I thought. I had not thought about this website in years until it popped up in a google search. Grades aren't nearly as important as people on this site think unless you are of course wedded to biglaw. But if you are wedded to money then there are other perhaps better options. I make six figures and it goes up every year. By year two I was making substantially more per hour worked than law school friends in big law. I suppose if they all make partner that will even out but I think I'd rather be able to spend some of my money. I also work for myself which is great. I have had midlaw offers which I have turned down primarily because of the freedom I have. Those offers had nothing to do with my grades or even what school I attended. Granted several things broke right for me but it can be done with a little bit of hard work and hustle. I remember distinctively being told on this site to dropout.


I know many attorneys that got into federal clerkships, competitive ADA positions, became successful small firm attorneys, or landed at a Vault 100 firm and became partner that goes against the religious tenants of TLS. If they had posted on here while in law school or before they got their gigs, they would have never landed where they did. Site's still useful though for a to dig out the 1 helpful post out of the 10, and for the good laugh for the rest.

I never tell people potentially thinking about law school to checkout TLS or other TLS-like forums unless I remember of a very specific thread I think is helpful. Usually I tell them to reach out to a Bar association, they meet way less of the delusional fringe that way.

minnbills

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby minnbills » Wed May 16, 2018 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What do most TLSers do? Fantasize about telling their boss’s boss that he’s done with work with the firm’s client, then cry during their commute back home because they didn’t have the power to do it?

Or not even that, because they don’t ever get to actually ever meet a client, and instead just whine about the “stress” of grunt work on TLS?


Uou're wrong about the financial stuff, but your contempt for typical posters on this forum betrays that you've got some kind of jealousy/resentment thing going on.

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smokeylarue

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby smokeylarue » Wed May 16, 2018 1:57 pm

Lol this anon shitlaw dude is so bitter

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 16, 2018 2:23 pm

So jealous!! I wish I could have a life of full of glamorous forum posts, a career people make fun of, paid 6 digits in school tuition, and 3000 forum posts!

You know how Gretzky was the "great one" and people were jealous? Well, you guys are like the "great ones" except with low self-esteem forum posts. Except instead of 3000 points scored in the NHL and amazing fans, you've just posted 3000 times and make people laugh. I'm your biggest fan :lol:

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 16, 2018 2:27 pm

Op here... I’m just reading most of this now. I feel like some posts got sort of off topic lolll.

Stillblade

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Stillblade » Wed May 16, 2018 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Op here... I’m just reading most of this now. I feel like some posts got sort of off topic lolll.

The first few replies alone... "Was top third but basically felt like bottom of the class" :roll:

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby BeeTeeZ » Thu May 17, 2018 12:34 am

Stillblade wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Op here... I’m just reading most of this now. I feel like some posts got sort of off topic lolll.

The first few replies alone... "Was top third but basically felt like bottom of the class" :roll:


On TLS top 30% = bottom 70%.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2018 12:56 pm

Bottom 1/3 of my class, biglaw including V15, AIII clerkship, 3.5 yrs of experience, 3rd year associate (4th year in October)

When interviewing, consider things from the partner/judge's prospective, and show that you understand of the work they do. I was lazy in law school, but I worked on the side.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Bottom 1/3 of my class, biglaw including V15, AIII clerkship, 3.5 yrs of experience, 3rd year associate (4th year in October)

When interviewing, consider things from the partner/judge's prospective, and show that you understand of the work they do. I was lazy in law school, but I worked on the side.


Were you at Yale? I mean I don't think being bottom 1/3 at YHS matters that much, if at all.

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Re: Bottom of your law class

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 23, 2018 6:08 pm

I think I graduated in the bottom half (not entirely sure since my school stops ranking at top 1/3) of a school ranked between 20-30. I went from state govt (40-50k) to small firm (65k) to midsize firm (not market but 100k+) to bigfed (GS14) in about 4 years.



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