Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

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Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:46 am

I'm going anon because I'm going to give a number of personal details that could identify me and harm me at my current job.

For financial reasons, I am thinking about becoming a biglaw associate. I graduated #1 at a T14 and clerked for a prestigious (feeder) judge. I am currently working at a job that is decidedly not biglaw (think ACLU/EJW Fellowship, etc.) I have no geographic limitations. Do I have any chance at snagging a gig in the appellate division of a biglaw firm without a SCOTUS clerkship under my belt? I'm really not interested in trial work, but I'm wondering if I will have to suck it up and work in litigation if I want to transition to biglaw. Anyone currently in biglaw willing to talk to me privately about this?

illegallad

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby illegallad » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:03 am

Someone from my year did it. She was top 5 from a T1 and has two clerkships, one district one and non-prestigious appellate, after that she's going to a bigfirm.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:33 am

Working in PI might be a little bit of a red flag to biglaw recruiters.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby jd20132013 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:26 pm

illegallad wrote:Someone from my year did it. She was top 5 from a T1 and has two clerkships, one district one and non-prestigious appellate, after that she's going to a bigfirm.


Mm. Let's see how much appellate work she ends up doing.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby hlsperson1111 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm going anon because I'm going to give a number of personal details that could identify me and harm me at my current job.

For financial reasons, I am thinking about becoming a biglaw associate. I graduated #1 at a T14 and clerked for a prestigious (feeder) judge. I am currently working at a job that is decidedly not biglaw (think ACLU/EJW Fellowship, etc.) I have no geographic limitations. Do I have any chance at snagging a gig in the appellate division of a biglaw firm without a SCOTUS clerkship under my belt? I'm really not interested in trial work, but I'm wondering if I will have to suck it up and work in litigation if I want to transition to biglaw. Anyone currently in biglaw willing to talk to me privately about this?


You have as good of a shot as getting an appellate-focused job at a big firm as anyone (or at least anyone without a SCOTUS clerkship). I don't think having a prestigious PI fellowship will hurt you if you are looking at appellate practices, even if it might hurt you for other biglaw positions.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby 1styearlateral » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:43 pm

I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby lolwat » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:04 pm

1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


There isn't that much appellate work to go around, and it's not very profitable as compared to trial level litigation. People can work their way towards getting appellate work sometimes, but a firm isn't going to be able to identify you as a good brief writer up front, while the firm can easily see the benefits of a SCOTUS clerk working on appeals.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:26 pm

lolwat wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


There isn't that much appellate work to go around, and it's not very profitable as compared to trial level litigation. People can work their way towards getting appellate work sometimes, but a firm isn't going to be able to identify you as a good brief writer up front, while the firm can easily see the benefits of a SCOTUS clerk working on appeals.

Presumably a clerkship is an indication of a "good brief writer" though

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


There isn't that much appellate work to go around, and it's not very profitable as compared to trial level litigation. People can work their way towards getting appellate work sometimes, but a firm isn't going to be able to identify you as a good brief writer up front, while the firm can easily see the benefits of a SCOTUS clerk working on appeals.

Presumably a clerkship is an indication of a "good brief writer" though

Lol

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:06 pm

Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


There isn't that much appellate work to go around, and it's not very profitable as compared to trial level litigation. People can work their way towards getting appellate work sometimes, but a firm isn't going to be able to identify you as a good brief writer up front, while the firm can easily see the benefits of a SCOTUS clerk working on appeals.

Presumably a clerkship is an indication of a "good brief writer" though

Lol

Feel free to elaborate

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:08 pm

1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:27 pm

BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


There isn't that much appellate work to go around, and it's not very profitable as compared to trial level litigation. People can work their way towards getting appellate work sometimes, but a firm isn't going to be able to identify you as a good brief writer up front, while the firm can easily see the benefits of a SCOTUS clerk working on appeals.

Presumably a clerkship is an indication of a "good brief writer" though

Lol

Feel free to elaborate

De-anon and I'll gladly humor you

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby RaceJudicata » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:12 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

My point was to share that I met plenty of associates who did not even have feeder CoAs who did primarily appellate work - as in more than 50%. Not that when I start work (3-4 years from now?) that I'll be doing entirely appellate work. The ancillary point was that TLS's conventional wisdom on appellate work may be in need of some updating but I'm not going to argue about that right now.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

My point was to share that I met plenty of associates who did not even have feeder CoAs who did primarily appellate work - as in more than 50%. Not that when I start work (3-4 years from now?) that I'll be doing entirely appellate work. The ancillary point was that TLS's conventional wisdom on appellate work may be in need of some updating but I'm not going to argue about that right now.

Your post never said that so excuse us for not getting the point of something you never said

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:46 pm

Why is anyone but OP anon? Afraid we can look through your post history and find out you're all law students?

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby hdivschool » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:49 pm

A few comments. OP, of course you can do appellate work without having a SCOTUS clerkship. I think you'd be a viable candidate, although many people will be skeptical of your PI background. Keep in mind that there are not many appellate gigs out there, so don't get discouraged if it takes a while.

RE: how many associates are doing 'primarily' appellate work, I doubt very many. At all but a handful of firms, most appellate work will be internally generated, and much of that work will be handled not by appellate specialists but by the lawyers already on the case (this is a spectrum, obviously). And, for most appeals, the budget is tight, so you can't sink endless hours into any particular matter. 1,000+ hours would mean briefing several appeals in a year. It is possible, but there won't be many associates doing that volume of appellate work at most firms. There are a handful of firms (esp. those with former SGs) that generate appellate work, e.g., by taking appeals from other firms or briefing at the cert stage. These firms, though, are usually the ones that attract SCOTUS clerks, so competition for appellate work is greater. It sounds like OP has the credentials to get into one of the groups, but most people don't.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby jd20132013 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

My point was to share that I met plenty of associates who did not even have feeder CoAs who did primarily appellate work - as in more than 50%. Not that when I start work (3-4 years from now?) that I'll be doing entirely appellate work. The ancillary point was that TLS's conventional wisdom on appellate work may be in need of some updating but I'm not going to argue about that right now.



that's what those associates told you, hm? I wonder if they were told by recruiting ahead of time that you wanted to do appellate work? I wonder if they actually do more than fifty percent?

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:11 am

Nebby wrote:Why is anyone but OP anon? Afraid we can look through your post history and find out you're all law students?

dude, chill. (some) people are talking about their OCI experience, they can post anon.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby GreenEggs » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:21 am

Nebby wrote:Why is anyone but OP anon? Afraid we can look through your post history and find out you're all law students?


or maybe some people post about their personal lives on this site and dont want to talk about things related to work with their username attached...
Last edited by GreenEggs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 am

Hi, I just wanted to give you some anecdotal hope / encouragment, I guess.

I graduated with a top five gpa from a "t-14" school. My professional background before law school was exclusively public interest-ish, and so was all of my law school experience. In the summer after graduating, but before a district court clerkship, I started to think a lot about money. I contacted a few law firms in my hometown about appellate work, ended up with a few interviews, and received a couple of offers to begin as an appellate associate post clerking. I never really even hid the ball, just kind of explaining that I wanted to make money while engaging in challenging appellate work. During those interviews, I obviously met some lawyers with stereotypically prestigious credentials, but most associates really just seemed to have some combo of appellate clerking experience and success with substantive writing stuff.

I personally ended up going in the entirely opposite direction so do not have any further insights. That said, it sounds like you have better credential-ish things than I did, and I guarantee you that you are better at interviewing / networking. Again, I had absolutely zero law firm experience. For you, especially without geographic limitations, I think with some scrapping you definitely could close in on a good appellate situation. I know our situations are not exactly similar for a few different reasons, and I know that a lot of biglaw hiring is relatively rigid, but there are some exceptions, and someone with your credentials could definitely be such an exception.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:52 am

Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

My point was to share that I met plenty of associates who did not even have feeder CoAs who did primarily appellate work - as in more than 50%. Not that when I start work (3-4 years from now?) that I'll be doing entirely appellate work. The ancillary point was that TLS's conventional wisdom on appellate work may be in need of some updating but I'm not going to argue about that right now.

Your post never said that so excuse us for not getting the point of something you never said

ok.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby Nebby » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
RaceJudicata wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:I assume when people say "appeals" they are referring to appeals on the federal level. But why is it so difficult to do appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship? Shouldn't it really just come down to who the best brief writers are at the firm?


I don't think it's all that hard to get appellate work without a SCOTUS clerkship. COA is more than enough. And I've known a few people who got into doing a mix of appellate lit and regular lit before their COA clerkship. Their might be firms where things are stricter—maybe GDC's appellate practice for instance or a high end boutique with an appellate practice. But that's just speculation.

As for OP, if you had a feeder clerkship, you're good to go, especially if you've done some appellate work in your current gig. Just need a good explanation for why you want to shift away from PI work.

Seconded. My impression is that firms are starting to expand their appellate shops and thus hiring standards are necessarily a little looser. Just did OCI this summer and went hard after appellate work and did fine (in DC market exclusively). The majority of firms I interviewed at had me talk with at least one associate who did primarily appellate work and the vast majority of those associates did not have SCOTUS clerkships or even necessarily feeders. I had a few places where I struck out going for appellate (because of the traditional - you need a SCOTUS clerkship - attitude) but those places were the minority.

So obviously take my observations with a grain of salt - firms selling themselves to SA candidates - but also just know that I talked to people doing appellate work who had less "qualifications" than you do.


You are missing the point. Report back after year 1 and tell us how much appellate work you are doing. If a lot, great. But my money is on 5% of your work or less. Gunning hard for appellate /= doing appellate work.

My point was to share that I met plenty of associates who did not even have feeder CoAs who did primarily appellate work - as in more than 50%. Not that when I start work (3-4 years from now?) that I'll be doing entirely appellate work. The ancillary point was that TLS's conventional wisdom on appellate work may be in need of some updating but I'm not going to argue about that right now.

Your post never said that so excuse us for not getting the point of something you never said

ok.

ok.

plen·ty (plen(t)ē) pronoun
1. a large or sufficient amount or quantity; more than enough.

synonyms: a lot of, many, a great deal of, enough (and to spare), no lack of, sufficient, a wealth of; loads of, lots of, heaps of, stacks of, masses of, tons of, oodles of, scads of, a slew of, a bucketload of, a buttload of, a shedload of

1. You never said how many appellate associates you met.
2. You didn't say, of those associates, how many had non-SCOTUS/non-feeder.

So, excuse me if none of us were able to glean that you met plenty, a lot of, many, a great deal of, loads of, lots of, heaps of, masses of, tons of, or buttload of associates who had neither SCOTUS nor feeder clerkships.

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Re: Chances of getting an appellate gig in biglaw?

Postby illegallad » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:25 am

jd20132013 wrote:
illegallad wrote:Someone from my year did it. She was top 5 from a T1 and has two clerkships, one district one and non-prestigious appellate, after that she's going to a bigfirm.


Mm. Let's see how much appellate work she ends up doing.


Sorry, should have stated she's going to their appellate practice, how big that is, I do not know.



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