Soonest quitting as a first-year

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:43 pm

WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:Multiple people quit within the first year that I started: at least 1 lateral within NYC; multiple laterals to different states or countries; and at least 1 realizing very quickly that big law was not for them (I think it took more than 4 days if I remember correctly). Following up on the above, I also know a handful that rode out the summer, but did not accept offers to go to banking or McK instead.


That's interesting. I wonder how the people in the office react to that (i.e. partners, senior associates etc)....not that the kid quitting likely cares at that point though...

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby JenDarby » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think a lot of people in law are just extremely risk averse and are unwilling to make changes in their life unless they are 100% certain of the outcome. If you are really unhappy and are financially stable enough (i.e., no student loans, have some savings, can live with parents for awhile), then quitting with no job to find something you want to do is fine IMO. I, obviously, am biased and much more of a risk taker than most lawyers. But I strongly believe that if you are reluctant to change your life, then you will be stuck forever. So save up some money, or if you are financially OK, figure out what you want to do and do it. It's not the end of the world to leave law - most lawyers end up doing it anyway.

This hits close to home. I am fairly miserable where I live/at my job and am absolutely just in it for the money at this point. I do have student loans, but I also have substantial savings and could be fine unemployed for a fairly long time. I should just start actively applying to new jobs but apparently I rather might let inertia keep me stuck here forever.
Last edited by JenDarby on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:37 pm

JenDarby wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think a lot of people in law are just extremely risk averse and are unwilling to make changes in their life unless they are 100% certain of the outcome. If you are really unhappy and are financially stable enough (i.e., no student loans, have some savings, can live with parents for awhile), then quitting with no job to find something you want to do is fine IMO. I, obviously, am biased and much more of a risk taker than most lawyers. But I strongly believe that if you are reluctant to change your life, then you will be stuck forever. So save up some money, or if you are financially OK, figure out what you want to do and do it. It's not the end of the world to leave law - most lawyers end up doing it anyway.

This hits close to home. I am fairly miserable where I live/at my job and am absolutely just in it for the money at this point. I do have student loans, but I also have substantial savings and could be fine unemployed for a fairly long time. I should just start actively applying to new jobs but apparently I rather might let inertia keep me stuck here forever.


How long have you been on the job? Same exact feeling here...

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:40 am

As a 1st year who wants to quit and pursue another career, this is my favorite thread.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby WhiteCollarBlueShirt » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
WhiteCollarBlueShirt wrote:Multiple people quit within the first year that I started: at least 1 lateral within NYC; multiple laterals to different states or countries; and at least 1 realizing very quickly that big law was not for them (I think it took more than 4 days if I remember correctly). Following up on the above, I also know a handful that rode out the summer, but did not accept offers to go to banking or McK instead.


That's interesting. I wonder how the people in the office react to that (i.e. partners, senior associates etc)....not that the kid quitting likely cares at that point though...


I understand that the person was told to take a month or two and reconsider; the kid did not comeback (others have after quitting and they tend to stay a while and be fairly dedicated). I don't think any of the partners/seniors really care that much.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:07 pm

If I am leaving law completely (e.g. V10 to sales manager at my pre-law school company where I spent 3 years), does it matter to future employers if I spend 12 months in biglaw versus 2 years? In that same vein, if one were to leave after 8-9 months instead of 12 monhts, would there be long term harm? I'm guessing I'm being neurotic and should just go for it since the opportunity is there..

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Yugihoe » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If I am leaving law completely (e.g. V10 to sales manager at my pre-law school company where I spent 3 years), does it matter to future employers if I spend 12 months in biglaw versus 2 years? In that same vein, if one were to leave after 8-9 months instead of 12 monhts, would there be long term harm? I'm guessing I'm being neurotic and should just go for it since the opportunity is there..


I would imagine it won't matter because you're leaving the industry forever. Pretty hard to get back into law after a non-law job like the one you mentioned. Do you regret going to law school for three years now that you're going back to your old company though?

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby PorscheFanatic » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:20 pm

Yugihoe wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I am leaving law completely (e.g. V10 to sales manager at my pre-law school company where I spent 3 years), does it matter to future employers if I spend 12 months in biglaw versus 2 years? In that same vein, if one were to leave after 8-9 months instead of 12 monhts, would there be long term harm? I'm guessing I'm being neurotic and should just go for it since the opportunity is there..


I would imagine it won't matter because you're leaving the industry forever. Pretty hard to get back into law after a non-law job like the one you mentioned. Do you regret going to law school for three years now that you're going back to your old company though?


I'd like to know about this. Do you at least get some value from the JD by going back, like a pay bump at least over when you were there a few years ago?

From what I understand, MBB consulting values a JD so if you can get the job, you come in paid as an associate, but just wondering if companies do something similar typically.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:40 pm

Had a peer a few years back quit big Law after a couple weeks, and this was someone who came off of a clerkship. It was very surprising.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby beautyistruth » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:07 pm

PorscheFanatic wrote:
Yugihoe wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If I am leaving law completely (e.g. V10 to sales manager at my pre-law school company where I spent 3 years), does it matter to future employers if I spend 12 months in biglaw versus 2 years? In that same vein, if one were to leave after 8-9 months instead of 12 monhts, would there be long term harm? I'm guessing I'm being neurotic and should just go for it since the opportunity is there..


I would imagine it won't matter because you're leaving the industry forever. Pretty hard to get back into law after a non-law job like the one you mentioned. Do you regret going to law school for three years now that you're going back to your old company though?


I'd like to know about this. Do you at least get some value from the JD by going back, like a pay bump at least over when you were there a few years ago?

From what I understand, MBB consulting values a JD so if you can get the job, you come in paid as an associate, but just wondering if companies do something similar typically.


My friend applied for a consulting job (small shop in their hometown, not MBB/Big4) and definitely got a bump over the standard starting salary ($75k to $100k). Company in question wanted people with law degrees/legal backgrounds despite the job not being legal practice per say. Friend said they were able to negotiate a little bit by pointing out that they were still paying back student loans on the law degree that the company was apparently interested in.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Im the OP considering going back to a sales role. Yes, I absolutely regret going to 3 years of law school (and now coming up on 4-5 months in NY V20). The thing is: you find yourself 25 years old, making $90k/year (including all commission) and start to become concerned that if you're good at your job, you might get promoted to VP of Sales one day and make $300,000 as sort of a best-case/very unlikely (partner-ish) scenario.

So you take out $150k in loans to go to law school, work your ass off, get a top job, in the hope you'll become one of these partners that makes $1.0-$4.0 million/year and get to do biz dev all day. Then you realize after about 3 months that (1) the partners' lives suck, (2) you're probably not capable enough to make partner anyway (much higher probability of becoming a VP of Sales), and (3) probably the most important: how could you possibly do this for a decade of your life? I'm sure to some people, working on disclosure schedules isn't mind-numbing. To me, I'd rather make 50 cold calls/day.

To answer the above questions, yes I'd likely be going back with a one-level promotion (that I probably would've gotten anyway two years ago). Most of the conversations have been informal, but companies appreciate a salesperson who can understand/navigate contracts without bugging legal dept. four times/day. Plus, the J.D. will come in handy should a salesperson ever reach a managerial position. Again, I'm at the start of the process, but prob expect to make less than $140,000 all-in next year, with less than 75% of that guaranteed. Back to the law-people: is there some difference in optics between leaving any job after 8-9 months instead of a full year? More helpful: how long have you seen someone slack off before getting sacked? 3 months? 6?

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Im the OP considering going back to a sales role. Yes, I absolutely regret going to 3 years of law school (and now coming up on 4-5 months in NY V20). The thing is: you find yourself 25 years old, making $90k/year (including all commission) and start to become concerned that if you're good at your job, you might get promoted to VP of Sales one day and make $300,000 as sort of a best-case/very unlikely (partner-ish) scenario.

So you take out $150k in loans to go to law school, work your ass off, get a top job, in the hope you'll become one of these partners that makes $1.0-$4.0 million/year and get to do biz dev all day. Then you realize after about 3 months that (1) the partners' lives suck, (2) you're probably not capable enough to make partner anyway (much higher probability of becoming a VP of Sales), and (3) probably the most important: how could you possibly do this for a decade of your life? I'm sure to some people, working on disclosure schedules isn't mind-numbing. To me, I'd rather make 50 cold calls/day.

To answer the above questions, yes I'd likely be going back with a one-level promotion (that I probably would've gotten anyway two years ago). Most of the conversations have been informal, but companies appreciate a salesperson who can understand/navigate contracts without bugging legal dept. four times/day. Plus, the J.D. will come in handy should a salesperson ever reach a managerial position. Again, I'm at the start of the process, but prob expect to make less than $140,000 all-in next year, with less than 75% of that guaranteed. Back to the law-people: is there some difference in optics between leaving any job after 8-9 months instead of a full year? More helpful: how long have you seen someone slack off before getting sacked? 3 months? 6?


I totally feel you about this. I was also a 24 year old making 90k with probably a max-out potential of 300k/year in my career, though in my mind, it was more likely to be 150-200k. I had the upside of not having to take out any loans for law school. That being said, I've calculated that it will still take me until 2020 to break even for all of the lost income during law school (if I continue on the Cravath scale in big law). So I can't even imagine how bad of a financial decision it is for people who take out 150k in loans. Even though big law sucks, I don't want to go back to my career because its stunted now by me being out of the industry. Also, a lot of my friends from college are pretty well advanced in their careers now while I'm a stub year breaking out signature pages.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby JCougar » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:12 pm

I know a Fed Clerk that quit Biglaw after 4 months. Must have had to give back part of dat clerkship bonus. Can't imagine how bad it must have been.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Im the OP considering going back to a sales role. Yes, I absolutely regret going to 3 years of law school (and now coming up on 4-5 months in NY V20). The thing is: you find yourself 25 years old, making $90k/year (including all commission) and start to become concerned that if you're good at your job, you might get promoted to VP of Sales one day and make $300,000 as sort of a best-case/very unlikely (partner-ish) scenario.

So you take out $150k in loans to go to law school, work your ass off, get a top job, in the hope you'll become one of these partners that makes $1.0-$4.0 million/year and get to do biz dev all day. Then you realize after about 3 months that (1) the partners' lives suck, (2) you're probably not capable enough to make partner anyway (much higher probability of becoming a VP of Sales), and (3) probably the most important: how could you possibly do this for a decade of your life? I'm sure to some people, working on disclosure schedules isn't mind-numbing. To me, I'd rather make 50 cold calls/day.

To answer the above questions, yes I'd likely be going back with a one-level promotion (that I probably would've gotten anyway two years ago). Most of the conversations have been informal, but companies appreciate a salesperson who can understand/navigate contracts without bugging legal dept. four times/day. Plus, the J.D. will come in handy should a salesperson ever reach a managerial position. Again, I'm at the start of the process, but prob expect to make less than $140,000 all-in next year, with less than 75% of that guaranteed. Back to the law-people: is there some difference in optics between leaving any job after 8-9 months instead of a full year? More helpful: how long have you seen someone slack off before getting sacked? 3 months? 6?


I totally feel you about this. I was also a 24 year old making 90k with probably a max-out potential of 300k/year in my career, though in my mind, it was more likely to be 150-200k. I had the upside of not having to take out any loans for law school. That being said, I've calculated that it will still take me until 2020 to break even for all of the lost income during law school (if I continue on the Cravath scale in big law). So I can't even imagine how bad of a financial decision it is for people who take out 150k in loans. Even though big law sucks, I don't want to go back to my career because its stunted now by me being out of the industry. Also, a lot of my friends from college are pretty well advanced in their careers now while I'm a stub year breaking out signature pages.


I'm the sales/OP: I don't know what your past career was, but I think you might reconsider a bit harder -- especially if you don't have any loans. People seem to keep telling me to stick this out for a year for some kind of "optics" reason I can't quite understand (salespeople jump around to wherever they reach the best comp structure), so consider networking in your old space for the next 6 months and negotiate a landing back in around August/September. On its own, the planning process makes working on the sig pages much more bearable.

There's also the chance (less relevant for sales) that you could arrange for a hybrid business/legal position (e.g. operations + commercial counsel) for some companies, then you can reconcile your JD as less of a waste and probably negotiate better comp/higher upside. It could be worth looking into... like me, you're fortunate enough to be non-kindergarten-JD, but unlike me, you're really fortunate not to have about $135k in loans. Just a thought.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:51 am

I have a question for the anon OP considering going back to a sales role:
I'm considering a big law gig or taking a sales role in a large, well-known tech firm. The job is similar to an account manager type position where you work with clients and have sales quotas to meet each year. Salary is around 120k, 40k signing bonus, and stock. I'm wondering whether it's worth taking this job over big law. My hesitation is sales and whether it leads to good exit opportunities (say I want to work in strategy/operations or some other business role later). I don't mind not practicing law, I just want to choose the career that leads to good future opportunities and ideally doesn't have crazy hours like big law.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As a 1st year who wants to quit and pursue another career, this is my favorite thread.


Ditto

- Sent from my desk over the holidays :(

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question for the anon OP considering going back to a sales role:
I'm considering a big law gig or taking a sales role in a large, well-known tech firm. The job is similar to an account manager type position where you work with clients and have sales quotas to meet each year. Salary is around 120k, 40k signing bonus, and stock. I'm wondering whether it's worth taking this job over big law. My hesitation is sales and whether it leads to good exit opportunities (say I want to work in strategy/operations or some other business role later). I don't mind not practicing law, I just want to choose the career that leads to good future opportunities and ideally doesn't have crazy hours like big law.


Sales OP checking in. I have no clue what's best for you honestly. I can only share the following:

-Sales is one of the better ways into almost any managerial position.

-$120k + $40k signing + stock is slightly higher than the package I was offered (by about $5k), I think the account management role is a no brainer (you're likely looking at $180k-$185k in all-in comp the first year). Being in biglaw with one foot out the door is a bit more uncomfortable than you might think. If you're totally chill just coasting for a year, then give biglaw a try and print the $180k, but you need to have thick skin and really convince yourself that you dgaf (I'm getting better at this every month).

-Assumings your big tech firm is a LinkedIn, Amazon, Salesforce, etc... you'll very likely keep pace with biglaw comp through to senior associate, but you'll likely never make biglaw partner compensation unless you make VP of Sales (you'll still make less than biglaw partner comp but there are tons of Sales VPs in Big Tech that are printing $500k-$600k)

If you want hard data outside of my anonymous comments (and more concrete compensation numbers), I'd consider connecting with one of the big executive search / tech recruiting firms and talking to a few headhunters. Ultimately, as with all things, this boils down to how much you want to practice law..

If its a money thing, I'd take the account management role (no brainer), but you won't seem as prestigious at a dinner table, if you're the type to care about that sort of thing.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a question for the anon OP considering going back to a sales role:
I'm considering a big law gig or taking a sales role in a large, well-known tech firm. The job is similar to an account manager type position where you work with clients and have sales quotas to meet each year. Salary is around 120k, 40k signing bonus, and stock. I'm wondering whether it's worth taking this job over big law. My hesitation is sales and whether it leads to good exit opportunities (say I want to work in strategy/operations or some other business role later). I don't mind not practicing law, I just want to choose the career that leads to good future opportunities and ideally doesn't have crazy hours like big law.


Sales OP checking in. I have no clue what's best for you honestly. I can only share the following:

-Sales is one of the better ways into almost any managerial position.

-$120k + $40k signing + stock is slightly higher than the package I was offered (by about $5k), I think the account management role is a no brainer (you're likely looking at $180k-$185k in all-in comp the first year). Being in biglaw with one foot out the door is a bit more uncomfortable than you might think. If you're totally chill just coasting for a year, then give biglaw a try and print the $180k, but you need to have thick skin and really convince yourself that you dgaf (I'm getting better at this every month).

-Assumings your big tech firm is a LinkedIn, Amazon, Salesforce, etc... you'll very likely keep pace with biglaw comp through to senior associate, but you'll likely never make biglaw partner compensation unless you make VP of Sales (you'll still make less than biglaw partner comp but there are tons of Sales VPs in Big Tech that are printing $500k-$600k)

If you want hard data outside of my anonymous comments (and more concrete compensation numbers), I'd consider connecting with one of the big executive search / tech recruiting firms and talking to a few headhunters. Ultimately, as with all things, this boils down to how much you want to practice law..

If its a money thing, I'd take the account management role (no brainer), but you won't seem as prestigious at a dinner table, if you're the type to care about that sort of thing.


Thanks for the insight, Sales OP. The company is similar to one of the big ones you mentioned (Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc.). I was wondering if you could speak to how hard it is to meet sales quotas generally. That is the thing I'm most worried about in a sale tech role. Are most people are able to meet sales quotas in these large tech companies with hard work? What types of qualities help one succeed? As a woman and someone who is introverted, the stereotypical image of a fast talking salesman comes to mind. I was wondering what makes one successful. Any insight would be helpful!

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:33 am

Bump.

Exploring a potential move into sales that may present itself, but my only exposure to sales roles were the top-good-to-be-true pyramid scheme jobs (selling kitchenware, make-up, etc.) that got peddled to me in college as a lucrative job.

Rationally, I know that working for a reputable company is different, but for some reason, I’m more unsettled by the thought of being in a sales role than I should be.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby tooswolle » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:02 am

First year mba considering a dual jd/mba so pardon me if I’m posting in the wrong section. My previous work experience was in sales so I feel like I can add to this conversation. Like all jobs you have your rockstars who are exceptional and your sales reps that aren’t. I did sales for six year and never had trouble meeting my quotas but I built strong rapport with my customers and became their go to guy that got stuff done. So I guess to answer your question sales relies on personality and getting customers buy in and most importantly knowing your products extemely well and showing them how you can add value to them.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.


I also quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.


I also quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.

Yes...you wrote the first post you quote.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby JenDarby » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.


I also quit after 4 days as well cuz I got a higher paying job that turned out to be life sucking.

Yes...you wrote the first post you quote.

:lol:

cmon out this person. there's no identifying info
Last edited by JenDarby on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:43 pm

So whats the protocol on quitting anyway? This thread has got my juices flowin....

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Re: Soonest quitting as a first-year

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:04 pm

Two weeks? The quitting part isn't complicated.



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