A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

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jd20132013
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby jd20132013 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:21 pm

biglaw reminds me of the quote from the shining re: this inhuman place makes human monsters

cavalier1138
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:01 am

Anonymous User wrote: It's really a lot like the DV we studied in crim.


Stop.

jarofsoup
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby jarofsoup » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:36 am

I work at a firm where the yelling is endemic. Do any firms not have yellers

Is there a list of firms with yellers. I know that the firms below have a bad reputation.

Paul Hastings
Cadwalader (historically)
Greenberg
Lowenstien
S&C

Anonymous User
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:47 am

Every firm, in NYC at least, and probably the larger offices of national firms in secondary cities, has yellers. Even firms with decent cultures have a couple of high billing rainmakers who like to take their shit out on junior associates. Those people are not getting fired for anything short of physical assault - you can learn techniques for avoiding having to work for them though or for making work for them more bearable. One thing I have learned is to immediately notify other partners you have an assignment for a screamer and get some relief - if they are normal people they will be reasonable.

The extent to which that behavior filters down to senior and midlevel associates and is allwed to continue is somewhat firm-dependent, though.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:04 pm

EliotAlderson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't screaming harrassment and illegal?


You are fucking kidding, right? Senior is a dick, but holy shit


(Senior Associate)

jarofsoup
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby jarofsoup » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Systematic screaming and harassment is illegal. But usually it has to have to have some element of rescism or sexism.

cavalier1138
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:11 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Systematic screaming and harassment is illegal. But usually it has to have to have some element of rescism or sexism.


With those qualifiers, firing people is illegal, too.

ghostoftraynor
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby ghostoftraynor » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:10 am

jarofsoup wrote:Systematic screaming and harassment is illegal. But usually it has to have to have some element of rescism or sexism.


Lol, yes only screaming at people in the work place because of their immutable characteristics is very illegal. There is no law that you can't be an ass generally.

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anyriotgirl
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby anyriotgirl » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:12 am

ghostoftraynor wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:Systematic screaming and harassment is illegal. But usually it has to have to have some element of rescism or sexism.


Lol, yes only screaming at people in the work place because of their immutable characteristics is very illegal. There is no law that you can't be an ass generally.


heaven forbid that we had an enforceable code of workplace civility

Anonymous User
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:09 am

jarofsoup wrote:I work at a firm where the yelling is endemic. Do any firms not have yellers

Is there a list of firms with yellers. I know that the firms below have a bad reputation.

Paul Hastings
Cadwalader (historically)
Greenberg
Lowenstien
S&C

If Lowenstein is on that list, might as well add Cole Schotz

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Dr. Nefario
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Dr. Nefario » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:I get yelled at for $hit that is not my fault at all, often. I work in biglaw in Boston at a 4th tier biglaw firm. One of the partners in my group regularly makes staff cry, and often throws shit against the walls. A few years ago, he was reprimanded for punching a hole in a wall. Needless to say, I'm looking for a new job, even though I just finished my first year. #assholes.


Would definitely be curious to know which firm this is. That seems excessive.

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Nebby
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Nebby » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:41 am

EliotAlderson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't screaming harrassment and illegal?


You are fucking kidding, right? Senior is a dick, but holy shit

Dumb post

ookoshi
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby ookoshi » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:57 pm

LaLiLuLeLo wrote:Ehhhh. It *is* personal and it's not any better if they call to apologize. Someone like that will keep doing it because they are a miserable asshole.


I'm confused as to what your definition of "personal" is. A person who will take their frustrations out on subordinates usually isn't being personal because they aren't trying to target a specific person, but rather that person happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e., be the person who made a small mistake while they were upset). I.e., the person is probably an ass to everyone, not just you.

When people give advice like, "It's not personal," they aren't trying to invalidate feelings of being attacked, nor are they saying the behavior is acceptable. But, someone who is an ass to everyone is a very different problem than someone who is very nice to everyone except you, and the two problems are dealt with differently. The latter is a personal problem, the former is not.

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pancakes3
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:04 pm

why is it that lawyers are the leaders in the clubhouse when it comes to screamers? i mean, there are incidents in medicine, finance, and other fields sure but it's not nearly as normalized as it is in law.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Nebby wrote:
EliotAlderson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't screaming harrassment and illegal?


You are fucking kidding, right? Senior is a dick, but holy shit

Dumb post

Why? Screaming at people isn’t illegal.

Anonymous User
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:14 pm

ookoshi wrote:When people give advice like, "It's not personal," they aren't trying to invalidate feelings of being attacked, nor are they saying the behavior is acceptable.


Regardless of what people are trying to do, telling someone "it's not personal" does tend to invalidate and minimize what that person is going through. It's generally unhelpful and often a shitty thing to say. This kind of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum, assholes like OP describes don't yell at people randomly, they do this to people when they think they can get away with it. That won't be everyone in the office.

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Nebby
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Nebby » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:23 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
EliotAlderson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't screaming harrassment and illegal?


You are fucking kidding, right? Senior is a dick, but holy shit

Dumb post

Why? Screaming at people isn’t illegal.

The tone was dumb. Aggressive condescension in response to innocent question is NAGL. Do you disagree?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:25 pm

But it was a dumb question.

Also, I don’t think saying “it’s not personal” is invalidating or minimizing, it’s just saying that the problem is with the screamer, not the screamee.

Anonymous User
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:30 pm

Accident
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ur_hero
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby ur_hero » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm

I've had an extremely nicely, helpful, and typically super cool-headed senior associate snap on me. Like BAD. It was tough, but I just didn't take it personally as I KNOW he/she was under a lot of stress and pressure at the time. I just ignored it and did as I was asked.

If it's a recurring pattern, avoid working with them to the extent you can and just ignore their tone as best you can to try and figure out what they want/need. I dunno about going to HR, as I personally would not (I'm super non-confrontational and give people the benefit of the doubt - maybe even when they don't deserve it). Perhaps if you get close to any other Seniors or Partners, try to have a discrete one-on-one with them for advice and/or support. If you can't avoid or deal with this, or it's widespread in the office, this kind of toxicity should make you think about looking at other options and talking with recruiters.

Just to be clear about this....I don't think the behavior in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE is acceptable. I think it's personally disgusting and a terrible way to handle anything in the work place. That being said, it happens, and given our position we have to tolerate/endure it until we've made our place. It's honestly a messed up situation where it's too risky to directly respond - and speaks to larger more systemic problems in workplaces but I won't go into that. Just know it's not YOU and that you don't "deserve" it - they are just damaged people.

lolwat
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby lolwat » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:58 pm

ur_hero wrote:I've had an extremely nicely, helpful, and typically super cool-headed senior associate snap on me. Like BAD. It was tough, but I just didn't take it personally as I KNOW he/she was under a lot of stress and pressure at the time. I just ignored it and did as I was asked.

If it's a recurring pattern, avoid working with them to the extent you can and just ignore their tone as best you can to try and figure out what they want/need. I dunno about going to HR, as I personally would not (I'm super non-confrontational and give people the benefit of the doubt - maybe even when they don't deserve it). Perhaps if you get close to any other Seniors or Partners, try to have a discrete one-on-one with them for advice and/or support. If you can't avoid or deal with this, or it's widespread in the office, this kind of toxicity should make you think about looking at other options and talking with recruiters.

Just to be clear about this....I don't think the behavior in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE is acceptable. I think it's personally disgusting and a terrible way to handle anything in the work place. That being said, it happens, and given our position we have to tolerate/endure it until we've made our place. It's honestly a messed up situation where it's too risky to directly respond - and speaks to larger more systemic problems in workplaces but I won't go into that. Just know it's not YOU and that you don't "deserve" it - they are just damaged people.


I agree with, I think, all of the above. I've also seen something not quite the same, but relatively similar, happen as the first line above (except by partners, not senior associates). Sometimes people are just under a fuckton of stress and pressure, and something just goes wrong and they blow up. It's not ACCEPTABLE, but it's possible to understand why it happens.

I'd personally never yell at anyone, but I've had to walk to cool off steam or go to a friendly associate's office to vent about stuff plenty of times, e.g., when people give me a horrible draft at the last minute and there's practically no time to fix it because the filing deadline or deadline to send to the client is coming up too quickly.

Sadly OP is in stub year so it's not like she has tons of options, but I think there are plenty of associates who manage to lateral after a year, so it could be something to look into if she can't get away from working with that horrible senior associate.

mvp99
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby mvp99 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:24 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Nebby wrote:
EliotAlderson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't screaming harrassment and illegal?


You are fucking kidding, right? Senior is a dick, but holy shit

Dumb post

Why? Screaming at people isn’t illegal.


google search reveals cases relating to non-discriminatory abusive behavior, including only screaming, based on existing tort claims

Anonymous User
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:25 pm

mvp99 wrote:google search reveals cases relating to non-discriminatory abusive behavior, including only screaming, based on existing tort claims


winning cases? based on IIED? genuinely curious

they're not cases under some labor/employment law?

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anyriotgirl
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby anyriotgirl » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mvp99 wrote:google search reveals cases relating to non-discriminatory abusive behavior, including only screaming, based on existing tort claims


winning cases? based on IIED? genuinely curious

they're not cases under some labor/employment law?


lmao. maybe there are winning grievances but good luck finding a unionized law firm

jimmythecatdied6
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Re: A senior associate screamed at me at work today. I'm devastated.

Postby jimmythecatdied6 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mvp99 wrote:google search reveals cases relating to non-discriminatory abusive behavior, including only screaming, based on existing tort claims


winning cases? based on IIED? genuinely curious

they're not cases under some labor/employment law?


also LOL at an IIED claim for getting screamed at for turning in shitty work product (deserved or undeserved). after the case is dismissed, i can see the (doubly) sad associate now... "but, but, but - I WAS right about what we agreed to... the partner didn't remember!!!!"




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