Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

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Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:02 pm

Curious as to what people think. I guess I hadn't really thought of a JD as a doctoral degree, so it does seem kind of awkward to work in this type of position without a PhD. However, for what it's worth, I think the ABA published something that suggested a JD should be considered equivalent to a PhD in some way, and also there's an FAQ for yale postdocs that says "All postdoctoral fellows/associates have doctoral degrees (Ph.D., M.D., J.D., or D.V.M.)."

Wondering if it is unusual/weird for someone with a JD to take this type of position, and if you tell people you're a postdoc do you also need to explain to people that you don't have a PhD? Should you maybe not call yourself a postdoc because it's too confusing?

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Nebby » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:06 pm

JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:30 pm

Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Nagster5 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby UVA2B » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:40 pm

Also consider that what you tell people while in a postdoc fellow/associate position has nothing to do with keeping that position. You got the fellowship, imposter syndrome can be left at the door.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.


It's like, technically do you have a doctorate in law or do you not have a doctorate at all, but rather a JD? I'm not quite sure if a JD is considered a doctorate I guess.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Nagster5 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.


It's like, technically do you have a doctorate in law or do you not have a doctorate at all, but rather a JD? I'm not quite sure if a JD is considered a doctorate I guess.


It's not a doctorate, it's a juris doctor. It's a terminal professional degree, a PhD is considered a lateral degree. No one expects a professor to have a PhD in law, and honestly can't think if I've ever actually seen one.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby runinthefront » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:38 am

Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.


It's like, technically do you have a doctorate in law or do you not have a doctorate at all, but rather a JD? I'm not quite sure if a JD is considered a doctorate I guess.


It's not a doctorate, it's a juris doctor. It's a terminal professional degree, a PhD is considered a lateral degree. No one expects a professor to have a PhD in law, and honestly can't think if I've ever actually seen one.

They are called J.S.D.s and some professors have them. Not many, but some.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:52 am

You are also unlikely to get a postdoc with a JD unless it’s a field very closely related to law, so they will get the whole JD thing.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby mjb447 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:11 am

runinthefront wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.


It's like, technically do you have a doctorate in law or do you not have a doctorate at all, but rather a JD? I'm not quite sure if a JD is considered a doctorate I guess.


It's not a doctorate, it's a juris doctor. It's a terminal professional degree, a PhD is considered a lateral degree. No one expects a professor to have a PhD in law, and honestly can't think if I've ever actually seen one.

They are called J.S.D.s and some professors have them. Not many, but some.

Yeah, JSD/SJD might be a closer analogue to a Ph.D., as it requires a few additional years of research and a dissertation and is mostly something that academics get. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of ... al_Science. That said, I think most legal academics just have a J.D., and it's generally considered the terminal degree in law AFAIK.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Nebby » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:57 am

JSD are for people that don't have the credentials for academia and don't like the practice of law.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:21 pm

As someone with both a PhD and a JD, it always pisses me off when people with JDs call themselves doctors. The amount of sweat you put into that JD pales compared to a PhD from a top notch R1.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:27 pm

mjb447 wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Nebby wrote:JDs qualify for legal related post doc fellow/associate scholar positions.


I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure people know that that's the case though, and they may just assume you have a PhD...

What do you say if someone asks what your doctorate is in? Just law? Or do you say you don't have a PhD just a JD?


If people ask you what degree you have you should tell them what degree you have. I don't understand what the confusion is here.


It's like, technically do you have a doctorate in law or do you not have a doctorate at all, but rather a JD? I'm not quite sure if a JD is considered a doctorate I guess.


It's not a doctorate, it's a juris doctor. It's a terminal professional degree, a PhD is considered a lateral degree. No one expects a professor to have a PhD in law, and honestly can't think if I've ever actually seen one.

They are called J.S.D.s and some professors have them. Not many, but some.

Yeah, JSD/SJD might be a closer analogue to a Ph.D., as it requires a few additional years of research and a dissertation and is mostly something that academics get. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of ... al_Science. That said, I think most legal academics just have a J.D., and it's generally considered the terminal degree in law AFAIK.

I will say that I went to a lecture on becoming a law professor that my school put on last week and they said the expected path for someone to become a law professor nowadays is to have both a PhD and a JD.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby malibustacy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:32 pm

Eh, then again Chiropractors, Doctors of Physical Therapy, and your local sham divinity school Ph. Ds call themselves Doctors, so I suppose the term really is a loaded social construct and has no actual meaning.

JDs really caught up about this love to use Esquire.

OP, if someone is willing to hire you as a Postdoc fellow/associate, go for it. But I wouldn't call yourself a postdoc or doctor.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As someone with both a PhD and a JD, it always pisses me off when people with JDs call themselves doctors. The amount of sweat you put into that JD pales compared to a PhD from a top notch R1.

Amen brother/sister.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:11 pm

malibustacy wrote:Eh, then again Chiropractors, Doctors of Physical Therapy, and your local sham divinity school Ph. Ds call themselves Doctors, so I suppose the term really is a loaded social construct and has no actual meaning.

JDs really caught up about this love to use Esquire.

OP, if someone is willing to hire you as a Postdoc fellow/associate, go for it. But I wouldn't call yourself a postdoc or doctor.


Not calling yourself a doctor seems reasonable, but even if you're hired as a postdoc fellow/associate you wouldn't call yourself a postdoc? What would you call yourself then, just fellow/associate?

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Moabit » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not calling yourself a doctor seems reasonable, but even if you're hired as a postdoc fellow/associate you wouldn't call yourself a postdoc? What would you call yourself then, just fellow/associate?


Even though I would chuckle at the idea that J.D. is a real doctorate degree (law school and even legal scholarship do not require one to produce actual new knowledge about the world), I see nothing wrong about calling yourself a postdoc, if that is your job. Virtually everyone in academia occupying such positions calls her/himself a "postdoc." Use of a "fellow" or "associate" in conversations is not common (unlike in your CV/resume), with rare exceptions, such as describing one's belonging to, say, the Harvard Society of Fellows (glorified postdoctoral gigs).

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:20 pm

Moabit wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not calling yourself a doctor seems reasonable, but even if you're hired as a postdoc fellow/associate you wouldn't call yourself a postdoc? What would you call yourself then, just fellow/associate?


Even though I would chuckle at the idea that J.D. is a real doctorate degree (law school and even legal scholarship do not require one to produce actual new knowledge about the world), I see nothing wrong about calling yourself a postdoc, if that is your job. Virtually everyone in academia occupying such positions calls her/himself a "postdoc." Use of a "fellow" or "associate" in conversations is not common (unlike in your CV/resume), with rare exceptions, such as describing one's belonging to, say, the Harvard Society of Fellows (glorified postdoctoral gigs).


Yeah, like if your boss calls you/your position a postdoc but you call yourself something else...that seems weird. Postdoc seems to be the appropriate colloquial term regardless of your degree.

Do you think it makes a difference if you call the J.D. a "doctoral degree" as opposed to a "doctorate?" It may seem like a minor difference, but to me it seems like with "doctoral" degrees there can be various kinds (including JD, MD etc.) of terminal degrees with "doctor" in them, while a "doctorate" should be reserved for PhDs.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:As someone with both a PhD and a JD, it always pisses me off when people with JDs call themselves doctors. The amount of sweat you put into that JD pales compared to a PhD from a top notch R1.

Amen brother/sister.

If you guys are talking to the types of people who have JDs but would call themselves "Doctors" then you really need to start talking to different people.

Also I assumed the first anon was Nony so her amening threw me off guard. Can we get another mod to confirm that Nony isn't sock puppeting here TYIA

Eta: And let's be real if you're talking to PhDs who call themselves "Doctors" that's also no bueno.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby Moabit » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:13 am

As to "doctoral" vs. "doctorate" and which one is noun and which is not, I defer to PhDs in linguistics. But as far as the substance of the difference, it is not about the amount of sweat one puts into a PhD degree. Although you sweat longer for a PhD, the latter is essentially about two things:
1. Training in the methodology of academic research (critical assessment of the existing body of data, formulation of a hypothesis, developing means of verifying/falsifying the hypothesis, analysis of the obtained data, explanation of the data, etc.)
2. Actual application of this method for the production of a new knowledge.

Whether one calls PhD a doctoral degree as opposed to MD and JD doctorates, the substance amounts to this difference in training/experience which neither MDs nor JDs receive. (And this is not to demean, just to state a fact.)

But you should not worry about calling yourself a "postdoc" even if you are hired for a job which you did not have much training for. After all, each year tens of thousands of JDs fresh out of law school take on jobs they are not trained for, call themselves lawyers and do just fine.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:58 am

Eh it's pretty conventional to call most PhDs actively doing research "Dr. so-and-so".

I'd call the dudes who work at CERN doctors.

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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby jess » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:49 am

malibustacy wrote:Eh, then again Chiropractors, Doctors of Physical Therapy, and your local sham divinity school Ph. Ds call themselves Doctors, so I suppose the term really is a loaded social construct and has no actual meaning.

JDs really caught up about this love to use Esquire.

OP, if someone is willing to hire you as a Postdoc fellow/associate, go for it. But I wouldn't call yourself a postdoc or doctor.

i refuse to call quack science people "doctors."

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 am

BigZuck wrote:Eta: And let's be real if you're talking to PhDs who call themselves "Doctors" that's also no bueno.

Well, not in like a restaurant or grocery store, sure. At their actual jobs? Of course it’s fine.


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Re: Do you consider a JD a doctoral degree, and is it unusual to take a Postdoc fellow/associate position without a PhD?

Postby TheBlueDevil » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Nagster5 wrote:It's not a doctorate, it's a juris doctor. It's a terminal professional degree, a PhD is considered a lateral degree. No one expects a professor to have a PhD in law, and honestly can't think if I've ever actually seen one.


I never really got the whole doctorate/doctor distinction. Not authoritative but perhaps indicative of the prevailing cultural norm, Wikipedia suggests that "doctorate," "doctor's degree," and "doctoral degree" all refer to the same degree, and gives PhD, JD, MD, DMD, DDS, DO, DC, and Pharm.D as examples.




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