I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

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Milksteak

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Milksteak » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Op here. Woof. Sorry gang.

I'm not trolling. I promise these feelings are legit, I didn't write all of this out to piss people off. In addition to admitting that I've been a little screwed in the head these last few weeks, I'm spilling my soul to the board because you all have seen people like me before (maybe not quite as dramatic and neurotic) and some of us have experienced this before. Some of the more level-headed in our community have told stories about their jumps from SA at one firm to accepting offers at another for no other reason than firm reputation (or prestige). If I were more levelheaded, I would have kept my mouth shut here and just tried to get another interview at the firms I want next year. But it ate away at me today, so I'm sharing it. Maybe I should just drop it. Just forget it. Just continue. But, for reasons I'll discuss below, I still feel like I need to prove something to myself (and no one but myself), to prove that I'm capable of doing something about it, that I can prove to myself that I am actually capable of being more competitive in this process than I was. I know I am exaggerating a tad to show a level of drama just to give a glimpse of how neurotic this stuff has made me. I clearly am not like this in my normal, everyday conversations with people. No one knows I'm letting this eat away at me the way that it is. Not even my girlfriend.

Maybe I should see a counselor. I thought that time would let this stuff cool off (I got my rejections and took my offer well over a month ago). Some days are good, some days are bad. I guess earlier this afternoon was a bad one.

Please understand, my snarky comments about "upper middle class" and the firm rankings are ridiculous and I'm only doing it to give a glimpse of my own craziness. I know it's nuts. I know all of it is. And the vault stuff is just to show the difference between the places. I didn't want these two firms because of the rankings, but I'm showing the rankings to show how competitive they are. My colleagues and students at other schools value those firms. Just as I do. The firm I have an offer at is a cool place. But it won't win in a popularity contest against the other two. This board would agree. So would my colleagues at school. I got the offer at the firm I'm going to because it's frankly less popular at my school. I value it. I like it. And it's a really good place. But I also can't help but think that if I'm not capable of earning a spot at the most competitive places--and I wasn't--that I'm not going to be extremely successful in this industry.

I think the logical thing would be to say "so what? You're not going to be extremely successful. Most of us aren't. We'll do fine. We'll do our jobs, hopefully we'll like it, that's okay." That's the way to think about it, right? Yeah, that probably is the way I should be thinking about this stuff. But I can't. I didn't get into this game for that reason. I do get that sane-perspective, that's the right way to look at it, and I admit that I'm nuts for even thinking the way that I am. This isn't about showing off or being a prick or entitled or whatever. It's just what I want to do. I want to be competitive. I want that satisfaction. Maybe I am Ahab.

I'm starting to think now that I shouldn't even be playing this game. Not because I'm not at the top, but because I let it eat away at me the way that I have. I'm not sure what to do now.

I guess I'll just push forward. Being back into schoolwork helps take my mind off it from time to time, but clearly it's not completely gone. I didn't mean to piss anyone off, and for those who wrote back with either legit concern or critical feedback (UVA2B and rpupkin, BaiAilian and Wild Card, among others) I do really appreciate it.

I don't want to piss people off, and I hope if nothing else you didn't think you were wasting your time or you got a laugh out of it.


First off, sorry you are going through all this anxiety and self doubt. I think everyone has experienced that and we can all know how bad it sucks.

Second, have you thought about why it is you want to be "extremely successful?" What does that mean to you? Do you know? And if you do know, what purpose would being extremely successful serve for you? To what end are you seeking that goal? How would it make your life better than it is now?

Third, I think you should definitely try to speak with a counselor. It is really difficult to deal with these extreme emotions alone.

And finally, try to put your own life into perspective. It is true that everyone has problems and that have stress and we cannot always control what we feel. But we can try to determine if our feelings are valid and whether or not our response is proportionate. This is taking a job that was not your top choice that is going to pay you $200,000, about 4 times the median income for a family of four. You aren't bleeding or maimed, no one is dying, you aren't going to jail or being evicted from your home. Breathe. You can work through this problem and you are going to be completely fine.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Nebby » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:12 pm

Are you sure you even want biglaw?

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby cron1834 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:26 pm

OP, what you're not getting is that this sort of obsession won't end if you just get one of these firms. Why would it end because you're at a V15? A V10 is better than that. A V5 is better than that. Hell, even if you're at a V5, Wachtell is a more prestigious outcome, or MTO or KVN. Even if you're at one of those firms, some ppl will have SCOTUS clerkships that you don't, or whatever. It literally never ends.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby RaceJudicata » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:40 pm

Since you got rejected, might as well just say what the two V15s are. If anything, folks will have a chance to rag on how shitty those places are and how little you are missing out on.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby jd20132013 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:44 pm

that makes me think that my makeup, my personality, whatever, is not built out for this industry.


correct

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby malibustacy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:19 am

You'll be fine. You hyped yourself too much for this 1L year, believed all the Vault BS, and really bought into the marketing more than you should have.

I don't think you're nuts. Your brain is just confused; once you set your mind to something for so long, whether its a sports car, luxury handbag, or even a law firm, your brain starts doing weird "the grass is greener on the other side" stuff to give meaning to your life. It's probably biological too; maybe the idea of those "favorite firms" pumped endorphins and seratonin into your brain, and now you're going through some kind of withdrawal, kinda like a gambling addiction. It's hard to walk away from the table- you always feel like you could have make more money. It'll never be enough.

Find something else to obsess about. Go run. Or play poker. Or fancy metal credit cards. It'll pass.

You'll laugh about this in a few years.

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:44 am

Bruh your posts read like Twilight fanfic written by a 14 year old.

But uhh yeah unless you're clerking for SCOTUS, you're not "at the top."

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Wonnker » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:07 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:Bruh your posts read like Twilight fanfic written by a 14 year old.

But uhh yeah unless you're clerking for SCOTUS, you're not "at the top."


Clerking for SCOTUS?? Please! If you ain't sittin ON the SCOTUS bench, you ain't shit. V30 losers like OP might as well be bagging groceries.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby JusticeChuckleNutz » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:20 am

This is the stupidest post I have ever read on TLS. You have an offer at a V30. People would kill to be in your situation. STFU

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:45 am

UVA2B wrote:Seriously, I don't understand your hangup on these firms. What makes these firms special/important to your professional growth? What do you imagine your career should look like? What practice area do they specifically serve that only those firms will help you advance your goals in?

Get past the arbitrary prestige/rankings/whatever stuff pervading your mind. Imagine your career in the next 10 years. What does that look like? What practice area are you in? Are you still with the firm? If it doesn't work out at the firm, where would you be working? How strong is the practice group at the firm you're going to in what you want to do?

Everything you write here smacks of being an objectionable law student, seriously. Everything that bothers you about your current firm frankly doesn't matter in the least. If you can't get past that, you have personal issues or comprehension issues about how your job/options will change based on your firm's presence in some ill-defined prestige hierarchy.


Substantively, yeah, there are some differences. In two subgroups of the corporate banner, there's these two firms that get the bulk of the business in town (that's not totally true, there's 3-4 other firms in town that also have solid, consistent clients)--the remaining corporate groups in town, including the group at the firm I'm going to, get either conflict deals (to which there's still serious business there, I know) because the 2 main firms can't work on the deal, or they're smaller deals. Or, in some instances, the partners at the firm have "legacy" clients that they garnered from the bigger firms before they defected, and they carry some business for that reason. I know some deals are purely because the client likes the partner, and this is where the partner now is.

There's another practice area within corporate that I really like as well, but it's a similar formula to the above. Again, these 2 firms have the biggest, most robust practice in this area, there's a few others that also carry their own weight but not quite with the same volume, and the firm I'm going to (among others) get the leftovers. Actually, for this specific group, the firm I'm going to has very little to offer at this office, but they told me that I could contact other offices which have more of a practice in this particular area.

I don't know about my longer-term career goals yet. I want to work with smart senior attorneys, I want to interface with clients, I want to go to a firm that has a robust training program but has a volume high enough to where I feel pressured to turn out good work and move onto the next project. The two firms I complain about have all of this. The firm I'm going to has some level of it, but gives me less time to explore both practice areas (and try to learn both) and the volume, generally, is less than the other two.

I don't know about 10 years yet. Maybe I'll have exited, maybe I won't. If I exit the firm I'm at, I'll have a decedent cred to move onto a boutique, go in house, or join the financing/business end. But it won't be the same as the other two for all the reasons I state above. Partner track at the firm I'm going to, while possible, is very difficult for reasons outside of any associate's control. The other two firms? The challenges are different but much more transparent.

But I'll be honest, UVA, it is totally personal bullsh*t and completely arbitrary. Yeah, the above stuff has merit to it (at least in my eyes) but that's not the only reason why I'm complaining today. It's frankly the objectionable stuff too. I can get past it, in a way, some days I feel like I have, but this sh*t still plagues me. What if the firm I work for closes its office? Or axes first years? It's done it before. The other two haven't since the crash.

But what plagues me beyond this stuff above is the whole ridiculous (I admit it's completely ridiculous) notion that I'm not good enough for them. Those firms are competitive, many of my colleagues wanted those firms for the same reasons I wanted them. And, they pick attorneys who are talented and aggressive and have stellar creds and are smart and all that -- what does it mean when I'm not picked? Well for one, I'm still fortunate to get to go to the place that those "better" than me forwent. Or simply chose not to interview with. It's still a good place. But it's not the cream of the crop. This is the psychological sh*t that continues to plague me because it reminds me that the gold-standard went to those more worthy. Where did I go wrong? It doesn't matter, but I didn't qualify. And because I didn't qualify that tells me something about myself. I f*cked up, or something. Or I'm not built out for this industry. This is the thing that no one who personally knows me sees me going through. Apparently I'm saving this torture for you.

cron1834 wrote:OP, what you're not getting is that this sort of obsession won't end if you just get one of these firms. Why would it end because you're at a V15? A V10 is better than that. A V5 is better than that. Hell, even if you're at a V5, Wachtell is a more prestigious outcome, or MTO or KVN. Even if you're at one of those firms, some ppl will have SCOTUS clerkships that you don't, or whatever. It literally never ends.


Yes, absolutely. I've seen this rapid acceleration of a chase increase over the last year. I never thought it would plague me the way that it has. I tell myself right now that going to one of these firms would end the chase--because the goal was to go to one of these firms. I wouldn't have anything else to prove, not at this stage of my career anyway. That was the goal, and I "failed" it. But even if I accomplished it, you're absolutely right, who knows how I would have reacted, I might have said something else, set some other equally ridiculous ambition.

malibustacy wrote:maybe the idea of those "favorite firms" pumped endorphins and seratonin into your brain, and now you're going through some kind of withdrawal, kinda like a gambling addiction.


Yeah it feels like it's absolutely an addiction, and I'm in the hangover/withdraw stage. But instead of resting and drinking pedialite, I'm trying to figure out "why" I'm not there and what I can do to try to get there in the future. And in doing so, I'm still chasing after that high.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Rust » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:06 am

No one can understand your own ambition.

Does Mr. Bukowski speak to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lK4LrD8Ii4

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mohdban

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby mohdban » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:59 am

Troll post. No real human is this entitled. I mean stupid*.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Maybe I should see a counselor.


Fixed.

Also, if you're in a secondary market, stop using the Vault rankings to compare firms. And if you're in NYC, then stop pretending that you know shit about the distribution of business between firms in arbitrary ranking bands. But most importantly, stop trying to use an online forum as a substitute for therapy. Your school has free mental health services. Use them.

Npret

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Npret » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:12 am

You have a job and you feel that it's not prestigious enough for you?

You need to change your attitude or you are going to have an unhappy life.

Usually people that swear they aren't trolls are though so either way you have issues to address in your mental
health.

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Dr. Nefario

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Dr. Nefario » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:37 am

I'll just come in to say that if this is that important to you, quit spending extended periods of time to write long responses on this site and get to work on your 2L work. Maybe if you increase your grades/resume, you can make a jump up to a higher firm after 2L.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:03 am

The saddest thing about OP's prestige obsession is that it's not even abnormal in this shitty fucking profession.

The marketing that S&C et. al get away with for zero effort is incredible. Can you think of any other field at all who successfully convinces its employees that working the worst hours for the same pay is the "best" outcome, much less a field that purportedly attracts intelligent people?

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby jhett » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:20 am

You sound like a high school movie trope - a cheerleader wondering why the hot quarterback of the football team didn't pick you to date.

And just as no one cares about high school drama after high school, no one will care about which firms didn't pick you, and you shouldn't either.

You may have great clients and great partner mentors at the V30, while maybe you would have gotten lost in the shuffle in the V15s and dumped after a year or two. People tend to have rose-colored glasses when on the outside looking in.

Are you K-JD? Because if you have real world experience, you would know how to handle job rejection from places you really wanted to work in. Guess what - even the best people get rejected from some jobs. That's just life. It doesn't matter how smart you are and how hard you can work - there will always be people better than you and there will always be employers that just don't like you enough. But you move on because your specific employer does not define your career or your life. As long as you don't learn that lesson, you'll just keep going crazy as you are now.

TLDR: grow up.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby dabigchina » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:20 am

JusticeJackson wrote:White & Case is an embarrassing shit show. You should consider suicide.

White and case is v18. Given his obsession with rankings, OP would not have called it a v30.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby dabigchina » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The saddest thing about OP's prestige obsession is that it's not even abnormal in this shitty fucking profession.

The marketing that S&C et. al get away with for zero effort is incredible. Can you think of any other field at all who successfully convinces its employees that working the worst hours for the same pay is the "best" outcome, much less a field that purportedly attracts intelligent people?

I used to think this, but then I found out SC comps your health insurance premium.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Npret » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:30 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:The saddest thing about OP's prestige obsession is that it's not even abnormal in this shitty fucking profession.

The marketing that S&C et. al get away with for zero effort is incredible. Can you think of any other field at all who successfully convinces its employees that working the worst hours for the same pay is the "best" outcome, much less a field that purportedly attracts intelligent people?


Yeah. Prestige obsession can be motivation to some but without boundaries it never ends and it's hell on people who lose what they've gained. If OP gets no offered or fired they won't cope because it's the basis of their life and self esteem. I used to chase prestige and I eventually realized that it's meaningless to everyone outside of a tiny circle jerking world.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Mullens » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:12 am

I can't think of a single market where your description of the corporate work flow makes sense. What market is it?

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Aergia

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Aergia » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:53 am

Mullens wrote:I can't think of a single market where your description of the corporate work flow makes sense. What market is it?


Maybe Texas and the whole v15 thing is smoke and mirrors for anonymity purposes. Who knows.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby 1styearlateral » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:46 am

OP: 1.5/10
Comments: 10/10

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:00 pm

Wonnker wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Bruh your posts read like Twilight fanfic written by a 14 year old.

But uhh yeah unless you're clerking for SCOTUS, you're not "at the top."


Clerking for SCOTUS?? Please! If you ain't sittin ON the SCOTUS bench, you ain't shit. V30 losers like OP might as well be bagging groceries.


Correction: unless you're clerking for SCOTUS, there's always going to be a more prestigious post-law school job.
Last edited by PeanutsNJam on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby tyroneslothrop1 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:10 pm

Strongly recommend you check your attitude. Entitlement is extremely off putting and if your V30 catches a whiff you may get no-offered. In which case you would be in trouble.



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