I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

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I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:53 pm

This is a completely neurotic/upset/venting email. I hate asking for advice after complaining about how upset my pretty damn solid job prospects look, but I could really use some help and advice, gang. Any feedback you have is really appreciated.

I'm trying to keep things as anonymous as possible but if the community needs specifics on something I'll try my best to fill them in.

I took a SA for next summer with a good firm. I like them pretty well. Good people, good partners, pretty solid clients. They have a really good reputation (V30). I don't regret my choice given the choices I had (I had 6 offers). But I'm continuing to drive myself nuts, completely nuts, with the two firms that rejected me (many more rejected me too, but I only care about 2). I am pissed at myself, I can't shake the fact that, despite my grades and performance and work experience, the firm's don't or won't think I'll work well with them. 'Why?' I keep asking myself. Is it my personality? Am I too nice? Do I not come off as a hardass? As someone who won't drive a hard enough bargain for my clients? As someone who doesn't seem intelligent enough? Or is too old? The two firms that I really liked I think are both in the V15, but that's not really why I like them. I want the intensity their reputations carry them through. I want the big clients, I want the fast deadlines, I want that craziness. It's not just about the rank, I really do like the people and the reputation and I think that experience will suit me best for my career in the longer term.

Im bringing this to the community knowing full well I'm fortunate to still go to a V30. And again I like the people there. But I've been driving myself for more. I didn't work my ass off this past year to go somewhere else. Nor will I stop working hard once I get employed at any firm or office. This game is insane and I really enjoy it, but I want to aim higher. And higher. That there is probably stupid, but that's how I feel right now. 180 is 180 right? Not to me.

A good friend of mine, and someone who I trust (and who knows my grades and rank and personality) said, in an attempt to be honest and helpful, that the v15 firms didn't pick me because I won't fit there. He said I'm too nice, too personable, these places want blind drones who will burn their faces against the grind. Okay, I get that, I come across as a pretty nice guy, but I want the grind, too! I want to be immersed it, I said this earlier. If they really didn't take me for these reasons then all I want to do is figure out a way to show them that I am capable of being a hard ass, or, maybe more pertinent, that I still have a deep, edging desire to grind very, very hard and I want to go to these places for those reasons.

A few other things about all of this: since getting rejected by my two favorite firms, I've met more associates and partners at those firms for non recruiting reasons (various connections, friends of friends, etc)--some of my conversations with these people has worked their way to the partner on the hiring committee of one firm. He knows that I'm still eyeing them. He even contacted me; wants to "keep in touch." That doesn't mean much, but I'm not just a number on these guys' paper either. They know who I am. I haven't come across as desparate, not like I am here, certainly, but they know this is what I want in the end.

I'm gonna go to my V30 next summer, and I think I'll like it. But all I can think of now, in my second law school year, is how to best set myself up for getting an offer from the "prized two" next year. Either of these firms. What can I do? Grades, meeting clients in clinics, law review publications, general conversations with the attorneys there, etc. That's what I'm asking myself now: what can I do?

I would love the community's input on two things:

1. What can I do to try to get hired by these places during my 3L summer/year. Is it academics? Is it showing them "This" side of my personality? That I want to drive a hard bargain? That I want the grind? That I can work my ass off?

If this is true, what is the best way to make this work logistically? Yes, my school does 3L OCI but frankly we know the stats of that. We also know the stats of not hiring 3Ls even generally because classes fill with summers, as they should. I think my best approach next summer is to keep in communication with the associates and partners and use those relationships to get a pulse on the hiring needs of the firm, plus, hopefully be able to lift my heart above the mass mailers.

2. Looking at it from the other side: Is my friend right? Am I truly not ever going to fit at the top dogs? They'll never be for me not because I'm not smart or work hard enough, but because my personality is truly such a way, I'm such a person that I really, really won't work well there. And therefore I should NOT try to fight for something that smarter people have already seen and know that I just don't fit there. It's not for me.

If that's the case, then I have to ask myself: what does it take to be massively successful in this industry? If the top firms know I'm not right, then that makes me think that my makeup, my personality, whatever, is not built out for this industry. That I'll always be "upper middle class" in this profession. That I should consider myself grateful for where I'm at, and f*cking drop it. I can't drop it though. I'm playing this game to work hard and be the best. I don't want this career forever, I just want to spend the next 10 years working with the best and the brightest and with really powerful clients. But I love the game. Which is why I still have something to prove, why I still want to push. But maybe the community can help me drop it if you think I should. Because if I don't belong there, then all I'm gonna see is more heartache.

This thread is embarrassing, which is why I'm trying to stay anon. But if it helps, about me: I go to a top school, many of my colleagues (including my buddy I mention above) get recruited by the two firms I discuss. 10-15 people accept offers. They're big firms with big classes and they like my school. Also, my grades are good. Top rank, etc. I am in a competitive market, and these two firms are V15s, but they're not 1-3.

Any help the community can give on questions 1 or 2, always appreciated. Thank you.

sparkytrainer

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:02 pm

Get over it. Truly. You come off as an entitled asshole in this. You don't deserve anything from anyone. I know top 25% kids from t6 that fought to get a single v100 offer.

Go away and delete this post. You are a whiny, entitled brat.

IExistedOnceBefore

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:03 pm

The last thing you want to have happen is that you show this emotion to the firm you're going to this summer, and they no-offer you. So you need to get these emotions on lock down.

I agree with sparky, but I'm going to try and say it nicer. Your school should offer free counseling services. Take advantage of them. You need to find some balance in your life or you will crash and burn and graduate with no offers.

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mjb447

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby mjb447 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:03 pm

The only thing I know about your personality is what I learned from this post, but if you came off even 10% this desperate to work for those firms during the application process I'm not surprised.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is a completely neurotic/upset/venting email. I hate asking for advice after complaining about how upset my pretty damn solid job prospects look, but I could really use some help and advice, gang. Any feedback you have is really appreciated.

I'm trying to keep things as anonymous as possible but if the community needs specifics on something I'll try my best to fill them in.

I took a SA for next summer with a good firm. I like them pretty well. Good people, good partners, pretty solid clients. They have a really good reputation (V30). I don't regret my choice given the choices I had (I had 6 offers). But I'm continuing to drive myself nuts, completely nuts, with the two firms that rejected me (many more rejected me too, but I only care about 2). I am pissed at myself, I can't shake the fact that, despite my grades and performance and work experience, the firm's don't or won't think I'll work well with them. 'Why?' I keep asking myself. Is it my personality? Am I too nice? Do I not come off as a hardass? As someone who won't drive a hard enough bargain for my clients? As someone who doesn't seem intelligent enough? Or is too old? The two firms that I really liked I think are both in the V15, but that's not really why I like them. I want the intensity their reputations carry them through. I want the big clients, I want the fast deadlines, I want that craziness. It's not just about the rank, I really do like the people and the reputation and I think that experience will suit me best for my career in the longer term.

Im bringing this to the community knowing full well I'm fortunate to still go to a V30. And again I like the people there. But I've been driving myself for more. I didn't work my ass off this past year to go somewhere else. Nor will I stop working hard once I get employed at any firm or office. This game is insane and I really enjoy it, but I want to aim higher. And higher. That there is probably stupid, but that's how I feel right now. 180 is 180 right? Not to me.

A good friend of mine, and someone who I trust (and who knows my grades and rank and personality) said, in an attempt to be honest and helpful, that the v15 firms didn't pick me because I won't fit there. He said I'm too nice, too personable, these places want blind drones who will burn their faces against the grind. Okay, I get that, I come across as a pretty nice guy, but I want the grind, too! I want to be immersed it, I said this earlier. If they really didn't take me for these reasons then all I want to do is figure out a way to show them that I am capable of being a hard ass, or, maybe more pertinent, that I still have a deep, edging desire to grind very, very hard and I want to go to these places for those reasons.

A few other things about all of this: since getting rejected by my two favorite firms, I've met more associates and partners at those firms for non recruiting reasons (various connections, friends of friends, etc)--some of my conversations with these people has worked their way to the partner on the hiring committee of one firm. He knows that I'm still eyeing them. He even contacted me; wants to "keep in touch." That doesn't mean much, but I'm not just a number on these guys' paper either. They know who I am. I haven't come across as desparate, not like I am here, certainly, but they know this is what I want in the end.

I'm gonna go to my V30 next summer, and I think I'll like it. But all I can think of now, in my second law school year, is how to best set myself up for getting an offer from the "prized two" next year. Either of these firms. What can I do? Grades, meeting clients in clinics, law review publications, general conversations with the attorneys there, etc. That's what I'm asking myself now: what can I do?

I would love the community's input on two things:

1. What can I do to try to get hired by these places during my 3L summer/year. Is it academics? Is it showing them "This" side of my personality? That I want to drive a hard bargain? That I want the grind? That I can work my ass off?

If this is true, what is the best way to make this work logistically? Yes, my school does 3L OCI but frankly we know the stats of that. We also know the stats of not hiring 3Ls even generally because classes fill with summers, as they should. I think my best approach next summer is to keep in communication with the associates and partners and use those relationships to get a pulse on the hiring needs of the firm, plus, hopefully be able to lift my heart above the mass mailers.

2. Looking at it from the other side: Is my friend right? Am I truly not ever going to fit at the top dogs? They'll never be for me not because I'm not smart or work hard enough, but because my personality is truly such a way, I'm such a person that I really, really won't work well there. And therefore I should NOT try to fight for something that smarter people have already seen and know that I just don't fit there. It's not for me.

If that's the case, then I have to ask myself: what does it take to be massively successful in this industry? If the top firms know I'm not right, then that makes me think that my makeup, my personality, whatever, is not built out for this industry. That I'll always be "upper middle class" in this profession. That I should consider myself grateful for where I'm at, and f*cking drop it. I can't drop it though. I'm playing this game to work hard and be the best. I don't want this career forever, I just want to spend the next 10 years working with the best and the brightest and with really powerful clients. But I love the game. Which is why I still have something to prove, why I still want to push. But maybe the community can help me drop it if you think I should. Because if I don't belong there, then all I'm gonna see is more heartache.

This thread is embarrassing, which is why I'm trying to stay anon. But if it helps, about me: I go to a top school, many of my colleagues (including my buddy I mention above) get recruited by the two firms I discuss. 10-15 people accept offers. They're big firms with big classes and they like my school. Also, my grades are good. Top rank, etc. I am in a competitive market, and these two firms are V15s, but they're not 1-3.

Any help the community can give on questions 1 or 2, always appreciated. Thank you.


amazing.

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rpupkin

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby rpupkin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:07 pm

I couldn't get past the third paragraph of your post. You've already diagnosed yourself as "nuts," so I'll just add the obvious: Get over it. This doesn't matter at all.

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SmokeytheBear

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby SmokeytheBear » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:10 pm

You used "V" six too many times.

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UVA2B

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby UVA2B » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:16 pm

Is it trolling when it's done anonymously?

In my very limited opinion, you're making really arbitrary speculations about the firms you want vs. the one you're going to next summer. What do you see as fundamentally different from the two V15s and the work they do vs. your V30? I'm assuming you're trying to go corporate since you're talking about "driving a hard bargain" for your client, but everything you just said comes off horribly and reeks of pretty much all of the worst parts of the neurotic, uninformed law student who thinks they know what they want without understanding any of the realities of the legal profession.

Working on a corporate deal isn't going to drastically change just because the deal might be marginally bigger in number, or involving a slightly more complicated corporate structure, or whatever other arbitrary value you're giving to the work and intensity done at the firms that rejected you.

For someone who has clearly done fairly well in law school and has the potential for a respectable career, please get smarter about how you analyze your career. 180k is 180k is flawed and incomplete as a perspective, but so is looking at this like the work will be demonstratively different (other than form and function depending on practice group and that firm's book of business in that practice area). There are very well-respected practice groups throughout the Vault rankings in NYC corporate work, and you've yet to really give an informed reason why these other two firms are so demonstrably better for your goals (i.e. I want to do public side M&A and Wachtell rejected me).

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:23 pm

As an associate at a "V30" (who has also been at a "V5" and a "V25"), this is one of the most hilarious, sad, and ridiculous rambles I've ever read on the topic of law firm offers/choice, on more levels than I can count:

- It's pretty obvious that this is about the prestige.
- If you think that "V30" firms don't have "fast deadlines," "craziness," and "intensity" to the nth degree, you've got a real wakeup call coming when you start as an associate. If you think that a "V5" or "V15" (or whatever) firm is inherently more intense than a "V30" or "V50" (or whatever), you again are - in my experience - quite mistaken. The intensity level is going to be high up and down the biglaw food chain. Exactly how intense it is will depend much more on the clients/partners/matters involved, and to some extent the city involved, than the Vault ranking.
- If you think the V15/20 are hardasses and V21-V100 are Mr./Ms. Nice Guy, again, you're being ridiculous.
- Big clients depend on your partners' and group's reputation, and they typically work with firms up and down the Vault food chain. I can't think of a
client I'd want to work for in my sector that's just too fancy for a "V30" firm.
- I'm LOLing at the "I'll always be upper middle class" in this profession. If that's how you feel about the opportunity to work at your current law firm, I hope for their sake they no-offer you and extend the spot to someone who'll value it and work hard at the job. And the angst is ever funnier because you seem not to want biglaw (or a legal career at all) in the long-term - furthering my sense that whichever firms don't hire you have probably dodged a bullet.

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unlicensedpotato

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby unlicensedpotato » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Yeah, I'm not gonna read all that but this is almost certainly for the best and if you later decide it isn't then you can apply to those firms after your 2L summer and after like 12 months as an associate (so twice in the next 3 years). Just make sure to get an offer as an SA.

You'll also quickly learn that you want to do X, Y and Z that are way narrower concepts than "corporate." And to get those things you may stay at your current firm or apply to a higher or gasp lower vault firm.

Everything in the post above is completely right too.

sparkytrainer

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:30 pm

I hope the mods either out this kid or ban him outright.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:31 pm

I got rejected by my two "favorite firms" at OCI too. come to think of it, I got rejected by my four "favorite" firms. who cares. I got a job and you did too

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SubmedianHomeskAlien

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby SubmedianHomeskAlien » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:35 pm

I got rejected by my 24 favorite firms at OCI

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:44 pm

This is something you need to get over ASAP. Keep in mind for when you start that big law is one of the least reaffirming environments that a person could work in. If you are beating yourself up when you have 6 offers about the offers you didn't get, I think you are going to have a hard time dealing with working throughout the weekend to finish an assignment, submitting it, and then hearing crickets.

Hand

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Hand » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:45 pm

OP, have you tried masturbation?

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:48 pm

In addition to everything else that has been said, your friend sounds like an idiot.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby RaceJudicata » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:59 pm

You proved the ‘top dogs’ right - you can’t drive a hard bargain and aren’t cut out to work at a top firm. No one who is ‘top dog’ v15 material would ever stoop down and accept the offer you did.

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BaiAilian2013

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:15 pm

Admittedly I started skimming your post after a while, but it's pretty obvious that instead of focusing on... any of that... you need to be talking to a therapist about these feelings/obsessions. This is serious advice, not snark. This kind of thinking is not normal and not healthy.

Also, your friend is just trying to be nice to you by thinking up an explanation for the rejection that somehow reflects well on you because you're acting so crazy and he feels bad for you. The real explanation is that law firms get a lot of very similar candidates, and there's probably no earth-shattering reason why you were rejected, and it doesn't matter anyway.

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Wild Card

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Wild Card » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:23 pm

V30 isn't a thing. If your firm has a really good reputation, then its Vault ranking is irrelevant. Nobody thinks that Paul Hastings is a good firm, even if it's V25, or whatever.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby cron1834 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:30 pm

LOL at this. OP, you sound very insecure and overly concerned with prestige. A couple years from now you'll probably care about this a little less. You're going to be fine, so stop worrying about nonsense.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Pizzaburger » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:52 pm

Ahab could not get over the white whale and his obsession ultimately destroyed him.

JusticeJackson

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:23 pm

White & Case is an embarrassing shit show. You should consider suicide.

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rpupkin

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby rpupkin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:33 pm

Pizzaburger wrote:Ahab could not get over the white whale and his obsession ultimately destroyed him.

In Melville's original manuscript of Moby-Dick, Ahab kills Moby-Dick, survives the voyage, and returns to New York. At first, Ahab basks in the afterglow of finally getting revenge on the whale who had tormented him, but his joy is shattered when Whaling Magazine releases its annual rankings of whale kills. The story ends with a distraught Ahab opening the magazine to learn that his killing of Moby Dick is ranked outside the top 15.

Melville's publisher found the original ending "too dark" and asked him to rewrite it.

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:46 pm

Op here. Woof. Sorry gang.

I'm not trolling. I promise these feelings are legit, I didn't write all of this out to piss people off. In addition to admitting that I've been a little screwed in the head these last few weeks, I'm spilling my soul to the board because you all have seen people like me before (maybe not quite as dramatic and neurotic) and some of us have experienced this before. Some of the more level-headed in our community have told stories about their jumps from SA at one firm to accepting offers at another for no other reason than firm reputation (or prestige). If I were more levelheaded, I would have kept my mouth shut here and just tried to get another interview at the firms I want next year. But it ate away at me today, so I'm sharing it. Maybe I should just drop it. Just forget it. Just continue. But, for reasons I'll discuss below, I still feel like I need to prove something to myself (and no one but myself), to prove that I'm capable of doing something about it, that I can prove to myself that I am actually capable of being more competitive in this process than I was. I know I am exaggerating a tad to show a level of drama just to give a glimpse of how neurotic this stuff has made me. I clearly am not like this in my normal, everyday conversations with people. No one knows I'm letting this eat away at me the way that it is. Not even my girlfriend.

Maybe I should see a counselor. I thought that time would let this stuff cool off (I got my rejections and took my offer well over a month ago). Some days are good, some days are bad. I guess earlier this afternoon was a bad one.

Please understand, my snarky comments about "upper middle class" and the firm rankings are ridiculous and I'm only doing it to give a glimpse of my own craziness. I know it's nuts. I know all of it is. And the vault stuff is just to show the difference between the places. I didn't want these two firms because of the rankings, but I'm showing the rankings to show how competitive they are. My colleagues and students at other schools value those firms. Just as I do. The firm I have an offer at is a cool place. But it won't win in a popularity contest against the other two. This board would agree. So would my colleagues at school. I got the offer at the firm I'm going to because it's frankly less popular at my school. I value it. I like it. And it's a really good place. But I also can't help but think that if I'm not capable of earning a spot at the most competitive places--and I wasn't--that I'm not going to be extremely successful in this industry.

I think the logical thing would be to say "so what? You're not going to be extremely successful. Most of us aren't. We'll do fine. We'll do our jobs, hopefully we'll like it, that's okay." That's the way to think about it, right? Yeah, that probably is the way I should be thinking about this stuff. But I can't. I didn't get into this game for that reason. I do get that sane-perspective, that's the right way to look at it, and I admit that I'm nuts for even thinking the way that I am. This isn't about showing off or being a prick or entitled or whatever. It's just what I want to do. I want to be competitive. I want that satisfaction. Maybe I am Ahab.

I'm starting to think now that I shouldn't even be playing this game. Not because I'm not at the top, but because I let it eat away at me the way that I have. I'm not sure what to do now.

I guess I'll just push forward. Being back into schoolwork helps take my mind off it from time to time, but clearly it's not completely gone. I didn't mean to piss anyone off, and for those who wrote back with either legit concern or critical feedback (UVA2B and rpupkin, BaiAilian and Wild Card, among others) I do really appreciate it.

I don't want to piss people off, and I hope if nothing else you didn't think you were wasting your time or you got a laugh out of it.

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UVA2B

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Re: I'm nuts! Can't get over my "favorite firm" rejections.

Postby UVA2B » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:56 pm

Seriously, I don't understand your hangup on these firms. What makes these firms special/important to your professional growth? What do you imagine your career should look like? What practice area do they specifically serve that only those firms will help you advance your goals in?

Get past the arbitrary prestige/rankings/whatever stuff pervading your mind. Imagine your career in the next 10 years. What does that look like? What practice area are you in? Are you still with the firm? If it doesn't work out at the firm, where would you be working? How strong is the practice group at the firm you're going to in what you want to do?

Everything you write here smacks of being an objectionable law student, seriously. Everything that bothers you about your current firm frankly doesn't matter in the least. If you can't get past that, you have personal issues or comprehension issues about how your job/options will change based on your firm's presence in some ill-defined prestige hierarchy.



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