How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

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How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:54 pm

If you look at NALP numbers across firms, specifically V20, etc., it's usual to see across the entire firm maybe 1 or 2 out of ~150 not getting offers.
Do you think those 1 or 2 are just very poor fits/do not try hard, or it kind of just random. Basically, is there anyway to avoid being the very small percent that is no offered

RaceJudicata

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby RaceJudicata » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:57 pm

Don't assault your co-workers, don't make racist/homophobic/etc. jokes, and probably most importantly: don't be a weirdo. But you are off to a bad start worrying about this in freakin SEPTEMBER.

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SmokeytheBear

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby SmokeytheBear » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:12 pm

I know, for example, someone at Latham who was no offered some years ago. He/she was not offered at least in part because he/she did not make an effort to socialize both at summer events and in the normal course. He/she just hung out with his/her fiance/e instead of going out and didn't make an attempt to do many lunches with attorneys or other summers.

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navykev

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby navykev » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:12 pm

- Be normal
- Don't drink too much
- Turn work in on time

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rpupkin

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby rpupkin » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:21 pm

RaceJudicata wrote:But you are off to a bad start worrying about this in freakin SEPTEMBER.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby notrub14 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:29 pm

meeting deadlines>>>>quality of work product

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rpupkin

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby rpupkin » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:40 pm

notrub14 wrote:meeting deadlines>>>>quality of work product

Not necessarily.

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TheSpanishMain

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:46 pm

rpupkin wrote:
notrub14 wrote:meeting deadlines>>>>quality of work product

Not necessarily.


The key is communication. If the deadline is not going to allow you to turn in decent work, don't fire off garbage just to hit the deadline. Get in touch with the attorney who has assigned it, explain that it is taking you a little longer, and ask if they prefer a rougher draft now or or a more polished version a few days past the deadline. A lot of this is common sense really.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby BigZuck » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:A lot of this is common sense really.

Welcome to TLS you must be new here

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:51 pm

SmokeytheBear wrote:I know, for example, someone at Latham who was no offered some years ago. He/she was not offered at least in part because he/she did not make an effort to socialize both at summer events and in the normal course. He/she just hung out with his/her fiance/e instead of going out and didn't make an attempt to do many lunches with attorneys or other summers.

FWIW I did exactly that this summer (spouse not fiance) and still got an offer. Literally went to 0 evening events and never initiated lunches or anything like that.

My work product was good and on time, and I wasn't creepy or inappropriate. My impression is that that's usually enough.

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TheSpanishMain

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:17 pm

BigZuck wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:A lot of this is common sense really.

Welcome to TLS you must be new here


Hope springs eternal.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
SmokeytheBear wrote:I know, for example, someone at Latham who was no offered some years ago. He/she was not offered at least in part because he/she did not make an effort to socialize both at summer events and in the normal course. He/she just hung out with his/her fiance/e instead of going out and didn't make an attempt to do many lunches with attorneys or other summers.

FWIW I did exactly that this summer (spouse not fiance) and still got an offer. Literally went to 0 evening events and never initiated lunches or anything like that.

My work product was good and on time, and I wasn't creepy or inappropriate. My impression is that that's usually enough.


While it worked for you, it's a riskier decision. Most firms don't want to mess with a 100% offer rate, but I think Smokey's advice is right here. OP, if you want to play it safe, try to show up to some of the social events and socialize. Beyond that, be normal, turn shit in on time, and communicate when with the lawyers who gave you the assignment.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby jd20132013 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:16 pm

Social events is just an easy way to trim the fat when firms over offer, normally it won't be a basis to no offer bc who gives a shit really as long as you aren't affirmatively weird and offputting when people do see you

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rpupkin

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby rpupkin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:12 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
notrub14 wrote:meeting deadlines>>>>quality of work product

Not necessarily.


The key is communication. If the deadline is not going to allow you to turn in decent work, don't fire off garbage just to hit the deadline. Get in touch with the attorney who has assigned it, explain that it is taking you a little longer, and ask if they prefer a rougher draft now or or a more polished version a few days past the deadline. A lot of this is common sense really.

Yep.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby poptart123 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:19 am

Turn things in on time and don't throw up on a partner.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby JusticeJackson » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:39 am

Here are the things I've seen result in a no offer:

1 - trying to be funny and coming across as a clown that couldn't get serious for work.

2 - taking too much work and then working all hours of the night and turning in shitty half assed work because the person was rushing to get to the next project. It's totally okay to say "hey I really want to work with you but I have a log jam of time sensitive assignments."

3 - being incredibly needy and indecisive. This person would ask several associates (on matters the associates weren't working on) to review every one of his assignments before the person would submit. It was fine at first but it turned into several times a day all summer, and evebtually some people decided they couldn't work with the guy full time.

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downing

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby downing » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:09 am

Any anecdata on weird associates who were canned or simply not hired?

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:12 am

downing wrote:Any anecdata on weird associates who were canned or simply not hired?


One of the summers in my small summer class, say under 10, was extremely weird but nice. Would leave events early (almost all of them) and didn't seem interested in being there. By all accounts his work was fine and he was very nice, but didn't socialize well. He was no offered purely because of that (or so I have gathered). At places with smaller classes, they can be very concerned about fit and social interactions because there isn't hiding a few weird people like you could in a larger class. He wasn't even that weird, he just wasn't very social and that cost him a job.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Wonnker » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:18 am

downing wrote:Any anecdata on weird associates who were canned or simply not hired?


Don't cover your workspace with pictures of your coworkers' children. I get it, you think they're beautiful, but your co-workers will find it off-putting.

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Hand » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:36 am

Wonnker wrote:
downing wrote:Any anecdata on weird associates who were canned or simply not hired?


Don't cover your workspace with pictures of your coworkers' children. I get it, you think they're beautiful, but your co-workers will find it off-putting.

how about pictures of your coworkers' parents' houses?

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Wonnker

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Wonnker » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:49 am

Hand wrote:
Wonnker wrote:
downing wrote:Any anecdata on weird associates who were canned or simply not hired?


Don't cover your workspace with pictures of your coworkers' children. I get it, you think they're beautiful, but your co-workers will find it off-putting.

how about pictures of your coworkers' parents' houses?


I think that is completely fine and normal. Obviously.

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PeanutsNJam

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:28 pm

Barring obviously egregious actions like shitting on a partner's desk, there's no way to know why someone was no-offered. A weird person's work product might have been horrible, but people usually aren't going to openly shit on summers to other summers. It's probably a combination of factors.

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rpupkin

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby rpupkin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:10 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Barring obviously egregious actions like shitting on a partner's desk, there's no way to know why someone was no-offered. A weird person's work product might have been horrible, but people usually aren't going to openly shit on summers to other summers. It's probably a combination of factors.

This is correct, and it's a reason to be wary of categorical pronouncements like "you're fine so long as you don't blow deadlines." It just depends. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't ding a summer for blowing a deadline, but I probably would say something if the summer submitted an incoherent or illiterate memo.

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Wonnker

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby Wonnker » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:22 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Barring obviously egregious actions like shitting on a partner's desk, there's no way to know why someone was no-offered. A weird person's work product might have been horrible, but people usually aren't going to openly shit on summers to other summers. It's probably a combination of factors.


Do you think this rule applies to all bodily fluids, or just feces? What if it is involuntary?

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Re: How to not be the 1 or 2 people who get no offered...

Postby MtheG » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:07 pm

Some thoughts:

1) Treat the attorneys you work for as if they were clients.
2) Be constantly available (answer all your emails promptly).
3) Be very, very polite to support staff and never think you are better than anyone at the firm.
4) Never be the drunkest SA in the room and never become known as the "drunk SA."
5) Don't act like you are part of the club yet, you will be part of the club when you are hired.
6) Be. A. Normal. Person.



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