V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

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ErinBurr

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V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:51 pm

Want to do lit.

The V50/primary market firm is not ranked in lit on Chambers, has a much smaller lit group, and are not as varied in the type of lit they do. It is a fairly small office (~50 people). I really liked the people though, and felt I clicked with all of them. The culture was amazing. This also feels like it could be my only chance to try a primary market. I don't really like big cities, but I feel like it's almost a rite of passage and the culture here might be worth it.

The V15/secondary market has an enormous lit group that does a variety of things, and is very highly regarded in lit on Chambers. It is a very large office and is strong is almost every practice area outside of lit as well. While the people were nice enough, I didn't feel like I really *clicked* with any of them the way I did with the V50. I want to end up in this market eventually, but I don't know if I should go now and would be cutting off working anywhere else forever if I do so.

Any input? Anyone choose a secondary market and regret it OR pick a firm for the culture and then start and realize that it wasn't what you expected? Is it stupid to not go with the firm that is markedly better for lit?

Thanks!

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TFALAWL

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby TFALAWL » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:09 pm

I work at a V15 secondary and am content. I think the bigger question you should ask is where you ultimately want to end up. If you goal is to end up in the secondary then by all means you should start there. If your goal is the primary market, then I would be inclined to take the V-50, but given what you said regarding the V15's lit reputation I would need to know which primary and secondary we are talking about. It's easy to go from OC to LA (assuming V15), not so much OC --> DC (though, strangely I feel NYC is possible).

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:33 pm

TFALAWL wrote:I work at a V15 secondary and am content. I think the bigger question you should ask is where you ultimately want to end up. If you goal is to end up in the secondary then by all means you should start there. If your goal is the primary market, then I would be inclined to take the V-50, but given what you said regarding the V15's lit reputation I would need to know which primary and secondary we are talking about. It's easy to go from OC to LA (assuming V15), not so much OC --> DC (though, strangely I feel NYC is possible).


Thanks! This is very helpful and I'm glad to hear that you're content there. The primary is DC, and the secondary is in one of PA/OH/MI

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:07 pm

bump

sparkytrainer

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:11 pm

ErinBurr wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:I work at a V15 secondary and am content. I think the bigger question you should ask is where you ultimately want to end up. If you goal is to end up in the secondary then by all means you should start there. If your goal is the primary market, then I would be inclined to take the V-50, but given what you said regarding the V15's lit reputation I would need to know which primary and secondary we are talking about. It's easy to go from OC to LA (assuming V15), not so much OC --> DC (though, strangely I feel NYC is possible).


Thanks! This is very helpful and I'm glad to hear that you're content there. The primary is DC, and the secondary is in one of PA/OH/MI


The answer from other posters is right. If you want a primary market, you shouldn't start at PA/OH/MI. You will really struggle going from those places back to DC/NYC/Chicago/etc. But it is much easier to go primary to secondary. That is how you make the decision. Do you want to be in PA for instance your whole career? If yes, then you have a great opportunity. If you want to be in DC, start in DC.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:57 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
ErinBurr wrote:
TFALAWL wrote:I work at a V15 secondary and am content. I think the bigger question you should ask is where you ultimately want to end up. If you goal is to end up in the secondary then by all means you should start there. If your goal is the primary market, then I would be inclined to take the V-50, but given what you said regarding the V15's lit reputation I would need to know which primary and secondary we are talking about. It's easy to go from OC to LA (assuming V15), not so much OC --> DC (though, strangely I feel NYC is possible).


Thanks! This is very helpful and I'm glad to hear that you're content there. The primary is DC, and the secondary is in one of PA/OH/MI


The answer from other posters is right. If you want a primary market, you shouldn't start at PA/OH/MI. You will really struggle going from those places back to DC/NYC/Chicago/etc. But it is much easier to go primary to secondary. That is how you make the decision. Do you want to be in PA for instance your whole career? If yes, then you have a great opportunity. If you want to be in DC, start in DC.


Should I be worried about the primary market firm not being ranked at all in litigation?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby runinthefront » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:17 pm

just go to Jones day
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Slytherpuff » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:23 pm

Don't read too much into the lit rankings. Just go with the firm you clicked with more - also I second the advice about trying to start in a primary market and later moving to a secondary if you're interested.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:31 pm

Slytherpuff wrote:Don't read too much into the lit rankings. Just go with the firm you clicked with more - also I second the advice about trying to start in a primary market and later moving to a secondary if you're interested.


does it matter that the primary market firm has a smaller overall lit practice and doesn't do as much? (they are heavily corporate/financial in general.) If I get stuck doing a certain type of financial-based lit/bankruptcy related work my first few years will I be stuck doing that forever?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:34 pm

ErinBurr wrote:
Slytherpuff wrote:Don't read too much into the lit rankings. Just go with the firm you clicked with more - also I second the advice about trying to start in a primary market and later moving to a secondary if you're interested.


does it matter that the primary market firm has a smaller overall lit practice and doesn't do as much? (they are heavily corporate/financial in general.) If I get stuck doing a certain type of financial-based lit/bankruptcy related work my first few years will I be stuck doing that forever?


You really need to understand if you start in the secondary market, you are likely going to really struggle getting back to a primary. That should be how you decide this, not whether the lit group is huge or not.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:39 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
ErinBurr wrote:
Slytherpuff wrote:Don't read too much into the lit rankings. Just go with the firm you clicked with more - also I second the advice about trying to start in a primary market and later moving to a secondary if you're interested.


does it matter that the primary market firm has a smaller overall lit practice and doesn't do as much? (they are heavily corporate/financial in general.) If I get stuck doing a certain type of financial-based lit/bankruptcy related work my first few years will I be stuck doing that forever?


You really need to understand if you start in the secondary market, you are likely going to really struggle getting back to a primary. That should be how you decide this, not whether the lit group is huge or not.


I understand your point, and it is definitely an important one. However, I'm not sure that I will feel like I'm missing out a lot by never living in a primary market. My main motivation for the primary market firm was that I really clicked with the people; I would be much happier if it was in a cheaper place. Is working in a primary market a 'rite of passage' for lawyers that needs to be done to prove oneself? I.e. will I look like/actually be a worse lawyer if I never work in the primary market?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby sparkytrainer » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:47 pm

ErinBurr wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
ErinBurr wrote:
Slytherpuff wrote:Don't read too much into the lit rankings. Just go with the firm you clicked with more - also I second the advice about trying to start in a primary market and later moving to a secondary if you're interested.


does it matter that the primary market firm has a smaller overall lit practice and doesn't do as much? (they are heavily corporate/financial in general.) If I get stuck doing a certain type of financial-based lit/bankruptcy related work my first few years will I be stuck doing that forever?


You really need to understand if you start in the secondary market, you are likely going to really struggle getting back to a primary. That should be how you decide this, not whether the lit group is huge or not.


I understand your point, and it is definitely an important one. However, I'm not sure that I will feel like I'm missing out a lot by never living in a primary market. My main motivation for the primary market firm was that I really clicked with the people; I would be much happier if it was in a cheaper place. Is working in a primary market a 'rite of passage' for lawyers that needs to be done to prove oneself? I.e. will I look like/actually be a worse lawyer if I never work in the primary market?


The point is you need to figure out if you ever want to live and work in NYC/DC etc because those options will likely be foreclosed to you by choosing the secondary market. Either decision is fine, but you need to decide for the majority of your life if you ever want to work in one of those markets. If you feel confident the answer is no, then go secondary. If the answer is even maybe, I would go to the primary as to not lose that as a possibility.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby RaceJudicata » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:02 am

What are we considering a secondary market?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:11 am

I understand your point, and it is definitely an important one. However, I'm not sure that I will feel like I'm missing out a lot by never living in a primary market. My main motivation for the primary market firm was that I really clicked with the people; I would be much happier if it was in a cheaper place. Is working in a primary market a 'rite of passage' for lawyers that needs to be done to prove oneself? I.e. will I look like/actually be a worse lawyer if I never work in the primary market?[/quote]

It's not a 'rite of passage.' Think about where you would rather live long term and go there. I spent the summer working at a big firm in a secondary market (not even sure if it was big enough to be considered "secondary") and 95% of the lawyers had only worked in that market and had never worked in a "primary" market. If you want to live in the secondary market long term, go there straight out of law school, since it's not guaranteed that you'll have an opportunity to lateral later on.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:21 am

RaceJudicata wrote:What are we considering a secondary market?

For this thread, I'm considering Pittsburgh/Cleveland/Detroit to be secondary

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:34 am

OP, I'm not in lit but I don't think you need to consider working in any of NYC, DC, Chicago, LA, SF/SV, etc. to be a rite of passage and/or important to be a good lawyer. Totally anecdotal but, for example, in a biased, irrational, and totally unfair way, I may initially assume a Jones Day litigator in Cleveland did better in law school than a litigator at a random V35-50 in DC. If that matters.

I think as others are saying, given these options you should consider where you'd rather work long-term and pick on that basis. I would guess if you're happy in the general market of the V15, you should go there. If you really want to work in a primary market forever, which it doesn't seem that you do, maybe that changes the equation.

Personally, I think "clicking" with interviewers is important in close situations but these seem like fairly different options and unless you had a real bad reaction to the V15, I would go there if you can see yourself working in similar markets long-term.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Jchance » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:41 am

Re V15 secondary wins by a landslide, not even a close call.

V50 primary:
"much smaller lit group" -- OP wants to do lit, if and when work gets dried up, s/he'd get let go.
smaller office -- meaning you better get along with the people or else, start looking for a new job
"rite of passage" -- just a myth, not true for lit
the only pros is clicking with the interviewers--which s/he presumes good culture, this might or might not be true. Even if it's true, this is not enough to overcome the benefits of V15 secondary.

V15 secondary:
Conversely, "enormous lit group" -- not worry about not having enough work.
large office -- meaning you can work for a different partner if you don't like a partner you worked for
OP "want[s] to end up in this market eventually" -- why wouldn't you want to start here and grow your root here, rather than coming in as a lateral--assuming such a move is doable.
"the people were nice enough" -- good enough of a culture. It's neutral, not a cons but obviously not that strong of a pros.
Last edited by Jchance on Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ErinBurr

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:09 pm

Jchance wrote:V15 secondary wins by a landslide, not even a close call.

Can you explain your reasoning?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Jchance » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:22 pm

ErinBurr wrote:
Jchance wrote:V15 secondary wins by a landslide, not even a close call.

Can you explain your reasoning?


Edited my original post for more content.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:23 pm

runinthefront wrote:just go to Jones day

Not op but would going to Jones Day in a secondary market still have the same effect on trying to lateral to a primary market? Or since JD is highly ranked and a huge firm does it make it easier to lateral from there than it would from a secondary market firm like Ballard Spahr or Reed Smith?

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:29 pm

In my opinion, this decision comes down to one thing: where do you want to start your legal career. If you want to start in NY/DC, I don't think it'll be difficult to lateral to secondary. Even if you don't even up at the V15, you'll still have great options coming from the V50 to secondary. That's not to say you should go with the primary market. Go to the City you want to be in, because it seems like you have two great firms to choose from.

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Jchance wrote:
ErinBurr wrote:
Jchance wrote:V15 secondary wins by a landslide, not even a close call.

Can you explain your reasoning?


Edited my original post for more content.


Thanks for that! Definitely makes a lot of sense, and I think you're right that if all the v50 has going for it is the people it's probably not enough to outweigh everything the other firm has. Sucks that I can't combine the best aspects of each :roll:

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby runinthefront » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
runinthefront wrote:just go to Jones day

Not op but would going to Jones Day in a secondary market still have the same effect on trying to lateral to a primary market? Or since JD is highly ranked and a huge firm does it make it easier to lateral from there than it would from a secondary market firm like Ballard Spahr or Reed Smith?

None of the above.

OP seems to obviously be talking about JD-Cleveland, and like another poster mentioned above, I'd probably rather be there than at some satellite office of Goodwin or Baker Botts or something, working for 1-2 partners who could jump ship and leave me high and dry at any time.

If you want to be in Cleveland (or Detroit or whatever) just start there. You're not grttingg any prestige boost from being in a tiny office of an eh firm just because the office is in NYC/DC
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ErinBurr

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Re: V50 in primary market or V15 in secondary market?

Postby ErinBurr » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:43 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
runinthefront wrote:just go to Jones day

Not op but would going to Jones Day in a secondary market still have the same effect on trying to lateral to a primary market? Or since JD is highly ranked and a huge firm does it make it easier to lateral from there than it would from a secondary market firm like Ballard Spahr or Reed Smith?

None of the above.

OP seems to obviously be talking about JD-Cleveland, and like another poster mentioned above, I'd probably rather be there than at some satellite office of Goodwin or Baker Botts or something, working for 1-2 partners who could jump ship and leave me high and dry at any time.

If you want to be in Cleveland (or Detroit or whatever) just start there. You're not grttingg any prestige boost from being in a tiny office of an eh firm just because the office is in NYC/DC


Does that happen often with satellite offices, where partners essential to the office just leave? If it does, why does anyone ever go to satellites?

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