T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:05 pm

gaddockteeg wrote:OP, what's your screener/CB ratio?

If you're not getting offers, that's one thing. But if youre not getting interviews at all, that's something else entirely and much more addressable.


Not OP but would appreciate some explanation: when you say something "much more addressable", do you mean problems like credentials/market demand as opposed to personality/interview skills? Is screener more about fit or credential?
FYI, I had 30 screeners but only 2 callbacks.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby lolwat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
gaddockteeg wrote:OP, what's your screener/CB ratio?

If you're not getting offers, that's one thing. But if youre not getting interviews at all, that's something else entirely and much more addressable.


Not OP but would appreciate some explanation: when you say something "much more addressable", do you mean problems like credentials/market demand as opposed to personality/interview skills? Is screener more about fit or credential?
FYI, I had 30 screeners but only 2 callbacks.


If a top 25% at a T14 is not getting interviews at all, I would say the likely culprit is something to do with the application materials -- maybe the cover letter or resume has glaring typos?

If a top 25% at a T14 is getting interviews but not offers, I would say the likely culprit is something to do with interviewing skills.

I'm a little torn on this thread. The OP sounds kind of entitled and stuff, but then there's the bullshit "go get work in your own country!" in this thread that really makes me want to help the OP as much as I can. Not that I can do a whole lot.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:04 pm

lolwat wrote:I'm a little torn on this thread. The OP sounds kind of entitled and stuff, but then there's the bullshit "go get work in your own country!" in this thread that really makes me want to help the OP as much as I can. Not that I can do a whole lot.


No need to be torn. The "go get work in your own country" bullshit was just some racist, xenophobic asshat who didn't read the thread (where it clearly indicates that this person is not an international student). The OP comes off as generally arrogant and entitled, and that shouldn't be affected by the fact that other people are just bad human beings.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:58 pm

If a top 25% at a T14 is not getting interviews at all, I would say the likely culprit is something to do with the application materials -- maybe the cover letter or resume has glaring typos?

If a top 25% at a T14 is getting interviews but not offers, I would say the likely culprit is something to do with interviewing skills.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:36 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:what is meant by international? being a foreign law student or simply being non-white?


The former. Not being a US citizen is a roadblock to employment.


This. With the administration, there is literally zero incentive for firms to take any risk on people that will need visas. It was hard enough before, but with this administration, no firm will take the risk. Sucks.



Not quite accurate, please stop spreading anxiety. The Trump admin, while hinting at it during campaign, has not changed H1B process (yet). In actual fact, last year saw a drop* in the number of H1B apps because the characters that abuse the system (tech companies undercutting US labor market) were discouraged by Trump's rhetoric. So last year's cycle was easier than previous years.

Firms will take a risk on candidates who require visas, but you have to be a candidate who they are convinced will be good. Grades are often a proxy of this, but not the final say. Firm policy varies if/when your H1B application fails. Some will say sayanara, some will send you to a foreign office.

Finally, if Trump admin ends up reforming H1B in the ways they have hinted, it will benefit biglaw kids. They had floated idea of raising the salary minimum to like 135K or something really high. This would kill those tech companies that take the lions share of the H1Bs by bringing in Indians with a masters degree (H1B salary loophole) and paying them 35K to do a job that would require a higher salary if done by a local.

*http://www.livemint.com/Companies/9VyX3ml8H8CRhsV8MNuapL/Wipro-Infosys-among-7-Indian-companies-to-receive-fewer-H1B.html

PS - not a MAGA. Just spitting facts on situation.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby gaddockteeg » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
gaddockteeg wrote:OP, what's your screener/CB ratio?

If you're not getting offers, that's one thing. But if youre not getting interviews at all, that's something else entirely and much more addressable.


Not OP but would appreciate some explanation: when you say something "much more addressable", do you mean problems like credentials/market demand as opposed to personality/interview skills? Is screener more about fit or credential?
FYI, I had 30 screeners but only 2 callbacks.


Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I'm assuming you're massmailing, so if you are getting bites on the mailers then the problem isn't easy fix like cover letter/resume problems.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Hikikomorist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:30 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
lolwat wrote:I'm a little torn on this thread. The OP sounds kind of entitled and stuff, but then there's the bullshit "go get work in your own country!" in this thread that really makes me want to help the OP as much as I can. Not that I can do a whole lot.


No need to be torn. The "go get work in your own country" bullshit was just some racist, xenophobic asshat who didn't read the thread (where it clearly indicates that this person is not an international student). The OP comes off as generally arrogant and entitled, and that shouldn't be affected by the fact that other people are just bad human beings.

I don't get the negative attitude towards OP. It's pretty reasonable for someone who's top quartile at a T-14 school to expect biglaw.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby lolwat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:13 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
lolwat wrote:I'm a little torn on this thread. The OP sounds kind of entitled and stuff, but then there's the bullshit "go get work in your own country!" in this thread that really makes me want to help the OP as much as I can. Not that I can do a whole lot.


No need to be torn. The "go get work in your own country" bullshit was just some racist, xenophobic asshat who didn't read the thread (where it clearly indicates that this person is not an international student). The OP comes off as generally arrogant and entitled, and that shouldn't be affected by the fact that other people are just bad human beings.

I don't get the negative attitude towards OP. It's pretty reasonable for someone who's top quartile at a T-14 school to expect biglaw.


It's pretty reasonable for someone who's top 25% at a T14 school to get biglaw. To expect biglaw to simply scoop you up just because of your grades, or otherwise feel entitled to biglaw, is different. And it's more the tone of the original post: "Has the whole world gone crazy? Been dinged by every firm. Please help. Will anyone pass my resume along to the shitlaw overlords? Is getting dinged by shitlaw a thing?" That is not the same as "Hey guys, I've been dinged from every biglaw firm I've applied to despite my stats. Am I doing something wrong?"

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Magic Hat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:19 pm

30 screeners and two callbacks? Did you do a mock interview with CSO and incorporate constructive criticism?

Edit - not OP. Sorry.
Last edited by Magic Hat on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:24 pm

There may still be some good opportunities down the line for next summer - not necessarily biglaw, but decent opportunities in IP. I also wanted to do IP as a rising 2L and struck out at OCI. Around late February, a patent boutique in the the same city as my top tier law school posted an opportunity to work as a law clerk there for the summer. I applied, and two weeks later I had a job with them. At the end of the summer they offered me the opportunity to stay on during the school year. I'd already taken a fellowship to study abroad the next year, and had to turn them down, but everyone who stayed on during the school year was eventually hired as a full-time associate. Keep your head up and watch the job boards closely.

Also: if you're top 25% at a T-14, you can almost definitely get a federal district court clerkship or a state supreme court clerkship (and if you want to do IP, target N.D. Cal., D. Del., E.D. Va., and E.D. Tex.--though patent litigation in E.D. Tex. will probably decline soon). After you finish a clerkship, you'll be able to apply to the firms through the judicial clerk hiring track.

It sucks not to have a job right now, but you have a lot more options than you think.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:33 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Its not unheard of to strike out in your spot, especially if you are at Georgetown where only 40% get biglaw. Also, if you are an international, that is certainly bad news given the administration. I know anyone who needs a visa, even top 10% kids at t6s are struggling because for a lot of firms, it isn't worth the hassle.


Not really. I need a visa, and all the firms I talked to were very clear that they would sponsor my visa. Shouldn't be an issue unless you're going to shitlaw.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby smokeylarue » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Its not unheard of to strike out in your spot, especially if you are at Georgetown where only 40% get biglaw. Also, if you are an international, that is certainly bad news given the administration. I know anyone who needs a visa, even top 10% kids at t6s are struggling because for a lot of firms, it isn't worth the hassle.


Not really. I need a visa, and all the firms I talked to were very clear that they would sponsor my visa. Shouldn't be an issue unless you're going to shitlaw.


For what it's worth, I noticed that a lot of international kids struggled at OCI when I went through it. I think it was a combination of having an accent/awkward interviewer and the need to get a visa. Large firms will certainly sponsor you still, but there is zero guarantee you get it, since it is a random lottery system. So for some offices, it might not be worth the hassle to sponsor a kid and still see him/her not get it through the lottery.

Keep mass mailing OP, your IP background can only set you apart as well. Keep in touch with your career services office, they may hear of openings that are unpublished and can notify you. Offices will continue to seek hires throughout the year, you just don't know when. I know a few people who landed something the year they graduated even (think January through April). Don't give up.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:51 pm

Being an international student at a T14, I can confirm that many international students struggled at OCI/callbacks. But I personally believe it's more because of language and interview skills. I was never asked about my visa status during the entire process. I know international students with median GPA in my school managed to land multiple biglaw offers.

That being said, some firms are more H1B-visa-friendly than others.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby cron1834 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:29 pm

OP is not an international student. Stop shitting up his thread with your hot takes on foreigners.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby glitched » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:56 pm

jrose55 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Its not unheard of to strike out in your spot, especially if you are at Georgetown where only 40% get biglaw. Also, if you are an international, that is certainly bad news given the administration. I know anyone who needs a visa, even top 10% kids at t6s are struggling because for a lot of firms, it isn't worth the hassle.


Not at GeorgeTTTown. Sorry for using the defunct terminology. I'm at MVP Top 25%, IP Background. Not an international student. Coming unhinged.


OP what is you IP background?


OP, what's your background? I made the huge mistake during OCI of not targeting firms based on my background, which I think plays a big role in IP. Maybe we can help you find the right firms because it's not as easy as clicking practice areas on the firm's website.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Kali the Annihilator » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:02 pm

Bmlnsm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Its not unheard of to strike out in your spot, especially if you are at Georgetown where only 40% get biglaw. Also, if you are an international, that is certainly bad news given the administration. I know anyone who needs a visa, even top 10% kids at t6s are struggling because for a lot of firms, it isn't worth the hassle.


Not at GeorgeTTTown. Sorry for using the defunct terminology. I'm at MVP Top 25%, IP Background. Not an international student. Coming unhinged.


Should have gone to Georgetown...


^this. Maybe you land in top 20% and get a job.

User has been outed (again) for anon abuse.

Ahaha, dumbfuck

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby andythefir » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:41 pm

No one can help anyone until we get a definition of shitlaw. Doc review? Extraordinarily unlikely unless you're super rigid re geography/practice area. Making <$180k? Much more likely, but those jobs have WAY more diversity between and among them than market paying firms.

I've worked at a few jobs most people would probably call shitlaw, and I enjoyed them waaay more than working at the firm where I was a summer.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby 84651846190 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:24 pm

glitched wrote:
jrose55 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Its not unheard of to strike out in your spot, especially if you are at Georgetown where only 40% get biglaw. Also, if you are an international, that is certainly bad news given the administration. I know anyone who needs a visa, even top 10% kids at t6s are struggling because for a lot of firms, it isn't worth the hassle.


Not at GeorgeTTTown. Sorry for using the defunct terminology. I'm at MVP Top 25%, IP Background. Not an international student. Coming unhinged.


OP what is you IP background?


OP, what's your background? I made the huge mistake during OCI of not targeting firms based on my background, which I think plays a big role in IP. Maybe we can help you find the right firms because it's not as easy as clicking practice areas on the firm's website.


It probably has more to do with the fact that IP is complete shit right now. Some total liars on here, like Desert Fox, will tell you it's fine. But he went to Harvard or something--easy for him to say. IP has never been this bad in the last 30 years.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:28 pm

ExBiglawAssociate wrote:
It probably has more to do with the fact that IP is complete shit right now. Some total liars on here, like Desert Fox, will tell you it's fine. But he went to Harvard or something--easy for him to say. IP has never been this bad in the last 30 years.


I'm curious. I've seen a lot of people say IP is a shit show or dying, but it makes me wonder. How? I would think that IP litigation would be fairly stable at this point or maybe even in increasing demand.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby 84651846190 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:36 pm

RedPurpleBlue wrote:
ExBiglawAssociate wrote:
It probably has more to do with the fact that IP is complete shit right now. Some total liars on here, like Desert Fox, will tell you it's fine. But he went to Harvard or something--easy for him to say. IP has never been this bad in the last 30 years.


I'm curious. I've seen a lot of people say IP is a shit show or dying, but it makes me wonder. How? I would think that IP litigation would be fairly stable at this point or maybe even in increasing demand.


Not sure why you would think that. There's an enormous amount of uncertainty out there because of Alice, Oil States, IPR death panels, constant changes to major issues of law suddenly being imposed by a Supreme Court that eyes patents with skepticism at best. The lateral market has cooled dramatically. District court filings are down. Google is paying professors, congressmen, etc. to make people think patent trolls are still a problem like they've been for the past five years (they're not). We live in an economy with a bunch of incumbent monopolies relying on network effects rather than innovation. There's no need to enforce patents (i.e., pay for patent litigation) when you can just amass a huge portfolio of patents and use it as a nuclear-like deterrent.

Unfortunately, our patent laws have become one-sided in favor of large technology companies that do not innovate, but rather have made a business of adopting the innovations of others. This efficient infringement business model recognizes that there is increasingly little that patent owners can do to stop infringement, so why pay a licensing fee? The problem for our economy is simple – large entrenched corporate interests do not engage in the risk taking required to innovate because Wall Street does not reward risk taking. Wall Street only rewards meeting or beating quarterly expectations, which is no way to run an innovation based business that is actually trying to accomplish anything worth innovating in the first place.

Dreaming big dreams is not what gets one a corner office in a publicly traded technology company, nor is it what shareholders reward. It is, however, a prerequisite to paradigm shifting innovation, which we all say we want. Even politicians who barely know anything about science, technology, engineering or math praise innovation and the breathtaking advances of those who dare to dream, but they don’t seem to understand even basic truths about the business environment necessary for those innovations to come through to fruition.

Those impossible, or at least lofty, dreams require money, which means investors on multiple levels need to be inspired. While the investor class with a tolerance for innovation risk taking is a different breed, at the end of the day investors invest to make money, which means they expect proprietary rights. In the innovation world that means patents, and not just any patents, but strong patents that are likely to survive challenge. Investors in this space will not just kick tires, they will engage in due diligence and generally speaking are not going to buy a pig in a poke, which is why you see so many start ups struggling to get investor dollars and so many investors going off shore for their investments.

The patent system all three branches of our government has created over the last 12 years has increasingly incentivized the stealing of patent rights rather than engaging in an arm length negotiation with innovators who possess patent rights that are supposed to be statutorily presumed valid. This is antithetical to basic, fundamental principles embedded throughout American law, not to mention basic economic principles.

Laws are supposed to be certain, stable and understandable. When certainty, stability and understandable laws are achieved externalities and transaction costs are low, which allows for the bargaining of rights to ensue. This in turn leads to an efficient outcome where the party that most values the rights can acquire certain, stable rights in a transaction that requires minimal diligence and presents little risk. This is known as the Coase theorem, and is attributed to Nobel Laureate Ronald Coase. According to the Coase theorem the law should maximize certainty and minimize transaction costs in order to facilitate an efficient, arms-length negotiation of rights between efficient parties.

According to Coase, obstacles to bargaining, a lack of certainty and/or poorly defined property rights will lead to an inefficient marketplace. It seems that the utter chaos that has become the U.S. patent system has once again proved Coase right.

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:49 pm

Hikikomorist wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
lolwat wrote:I'm a little torn on this thread. The OP sounds kind of entitled and stuff, but then there's the bullshit "go get work in your own country!" in this thread that really makes me want to help the OP as much as I can. Not that I can do a whole lot.


No need to be torn. The "go get work in your own country" bullshit was just some racist, xenophobic asshat who didn't read the thread (where it clearly indicates that this person is not an international student). The OP comes off as generally arrogant and entitled, and that shouldn't be affected by the fact that other people are just bad human beings.

I don't get the negative attitude towards OP. It's pretty reasonable for someone who's top quartile at a T-14 school to expect biglaw.


You don't get the negative attitudes towards a person who acts like he's owed a biglaw job?

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:03 pm

If you're in DC, Banner & Witcoff is looking for a school-year patent clerk. Not sure whether that fits within your plans for the academic year, but it would be a good way to make some contacts: https://bannerwitcoff.com/careers/open- ... 39541b02a0

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Re: T-14 Top 25% to Shitlaw?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:36 pm

Being in the top quarter simply means that more doors are open for you during the OCI process. As in firms with grade cutoffs/hard on for grades won't dismiss you outright. But once your past the first door, it's all about personality/fit/work experience/presentation.

Cut the bullshit arrogance and entitlement. BigLaw is not rocket science, they don't need the smartest person in the world. If your top quarter, you should have a shot at clerking, and from there you should be able to lateral into BigLaw.



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